Low level flying

[adhc2]

I did a number of years flying west coast Tofino area. Prep for .. runnin along shore line we would practice low level to familerize for local terrain following shoreline over water. Of course risk is greater, but risk management is what flying is about. One tip from my time flyin pipeline is to fly with a little bit of up trim to avoid flyin into terrain if distracted. Never the less as you were taught altittude is your friend so use it. Besides old guys like me like the smoother ride which often comes with altittude

[just curious]

Hey, is anybody here old enough to remember, decades
ago, when ATC went out on strike for $$$, so you couldn't
file IFR, and a corporate (G1?) full of poo-baas from one of the
big ol' nickle companies (Falconbridge?) tried to ..-run VFR
down low in crap wx and took out a tower?

Gosh, I think that was back in the 70's. Anybody else
remember it?

Navajo Chieftan. Our next door neighbor was on it. His wife wound up commiting suicide over it.

[Rowdy]

If it's a part of the job description.. ie: spraying, pipe patrol, scudrunning on the coast by all means know the area, take the proper precautions and fill your boots. However...

I know of one good friend who had a mighty scare low level in a river system on one of those perfect wind/wx dead leg kinda days.. Bombing along.. comes around a bend and lo and behold another machine doing the same thing coming right at him. Conflict averted.. but he tells me it was the worst few seconds in his life and career.

Wasn't there also someone in red lake that during a buzz actually clipped another airplane a year or two ago?

What would you folk consider 'low' ? 50ft? 100ft? 500ft? 1000ft?

[small penguin]

Personally I do most of my flying around 2000-2500 feet. But sometimes I'll dip down.

I've done some flights between 50-100agl going along a straight river in the middle of nowhere. I know that area is free of obstacles... wires, buildings, population, trees.. Though the possibility of a plane doing the same as I is there. I never really considered that one to be honest. But the corridor is wide and long, so I *should* be able to see anyone coming.

But no, its not at all work related.

[MrWings]

When you guys are dipping down to tree top level and in river valleys in the middle of nowhere, are you at least broadcasting your intentions? Well, the other guy coming the opposite direction probably isn't either. Something to think about.

[twotterflogger]

I've never made a broadcast about my low level flying, but I do know that when I worked up in Northern Quebec, that EVERYONE knew which side of a valley to fly over depending on cruising direction.... Never had a problem, and they've been using this unofficial rule for awhile....

[AuxBatOn]

If it's a part of the job description.. ie: spraying, pipe patrol, scudrunning on the coast by all means know the area, take the proper precautions and fill your boots. However...

I know of one good friend who had a mighty scare low level in a river system on one of those perfect wind/wx dead leg kinda days.. Bombing along.. comes around a bend and lo and behold another machine doing the same thing coming right at him. Conflict averted.. but he tells me it was the worst few seconds in his life and career.

Wasn't there also someone in red lake that during a buzz actually clipped another airplane a year or two ago?

What would you folk consider 'low' ? 50ft? 100ft? 500ft? 1000ft?

I'd considerer everything below 1000 ft AGL low level.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

What would you folk consider 'low' ? 50ft? 100ft? 500ft? 1000ft?

Low is one foot or less which is required for some chemical application work.....we had a contract with a potato company for blight control on potatoes....the application had to be done at one foot or lower......and we did thousands of acres of that type of flying.

By the way you can fly a bit higher when using a helicopter as the down wash from the rotor is better than the down wash from a wing.

[ragbagflyer]

What exactly does Trey Kule consider low flying

I tried to make it clear. Intentionally flying low for no purpose other than the thrill.
There are many legitimate times when accepting the risk is part of the job. Crop spraying. Low level survey. And even .. running. I am not, in the least suggesting low flying is not an acceptable part of a job...but that is not what is being discussed here. And the military has reason to train in low level flight. Part of the job

.

Lighten up Trey Kule. There's a difference between reckless flying and low flying. Don't assume that all employers have a problem with it either. Some do, and in that case the employee has a responsibility to abide by the company procedures, but for some it's just part of the job, and if it's in the best interest of both the pilot and the company if the pilot reaches a certain comfort zone before the going gets shitty. It's kind of like sex. There are some risks, which can be mitigated. Also like sex, it's ok to enjoy it, no need to feel guilty. People like flying low because you feel the sensation of flying more then you do up high, it's no secret. There wouldn't be so many students with dead hands and feet if people learned to fly with REAL reference to the ground. Just my opinion.

[small penguin]

lol going on that sex analogy... low flying = sex without a condom. high level flying = sex with a condom

[Treetops]

I spent my first 2000 or so hours low level on pipeline patrols and wildlife surveys(hence my handle). We generally did the pipeline patrols around 300ft. But there were times when we had to go lower to get a look at something or the survey required it. Anyone considering flying below 500 better know exactly where they are and all the obstacles around you are. I had all the hills, towers and houses memorized on my routes and I still got suprised and almost hit a tower that was a new construction. I had done that route every 2 weeks for a year at that point. Still the most scared I have ever been in a plane. I guess my point is not matter how safe you are you can get caught. There is a lot more going on when you are close to the ground whether you are in a 172 or a CF-18. Fly safe!

[Wilbur]

You can never be sure an area is free of obstacles - the best you know for sure is that you didn't see any obstacles last time you were there. And that only relates to man made obstacles. As mentioned, other aircraft can be an issue, but also, nobody has mentioned birds.

When comptemplating doing something for "the thrill," I've learned to ask myself one simple question first. "If something goes wrong or I wind up getting a call from a TC inspector following-up a complaint, how will I be able to justify what I was doing?" For example, if I'm flying at 50' down a river valley and hit a bird, how will I justify what I was doing there? There may be times when it can be justified, but most often there won't.

Interesting stat I heard once, but don't remember the source. 80% of pilots think they have better than average skills. I'm pretty sure I can guess where the "thrill rider" group would be found in that 80%.

[Hedley]

nobody has mentioned birds

They're more of a problem in the spring and fall
in my experience. A low pass will often flush
them out.

I didn't know this thread was supposed to be a
do-it-yourself course on low-flying

[small penguin]

How will you justify to TC? Well, here's how I would do it

A) I wasnt in populated areas, therefore the 1000agl does not apply
B) I remained 500 away from signs of population (a house, a car, John Doe taking a piss, a boat, a camp site)
C) I believe that at all times I kept my aircraft in a state in which I could complete a forced landing which, given the terrain, I believe I would not have had much of a different outcome at a higher altitude.* (see below)

Now my question is... Why do I need to justify to ANYONE flying at 50 feet? I have no legal obligation to give any kind of reason (as far as I know) for flying legally at 50 feet. Whether I hit a bird or not. If TC wants to be an anal whore... so can I

As for item C), when I do my low level flying, its generally in the middle of nowhere where the terrain is covered in tall forests, and bodies of water. If I have an engine failure 100 feet above a lake, I believe I have as much a chance of dying as I would an engine failure at 2000 feet above the same terrain. Though at 2000 feet I do have time to attempt restart, broadcast a MAYDAY, secure the engine, and then decide if I want to ditch in water or take a change in treetops. Im told... anyways, that my type of aircraft survives water pretty well ... in that it stays afloat if the ditching is done properly. Even if it didnt, I'd rather ditch in water than crash in trees. Though, of course, I've experience with neither.

Now my question is... How does TC become aware of a bird strike? As a GA, am I obligated to inform TC if I have a bird strike? I kinda get the feeling I do as it would classify itself as an aviation occurrence, and at best, I'd have no damage, at worst, I'd total the plane.

*shrugs*

And yes, I fly for the thrill. I dont know too many people who have a hobby and dont do it for the thrill. But I dont consider my skills any better or worst than the pilot next to me at the club.

[MrWings]

I don't think the Darwin Awards will need any justification when they include your story either.

[Liquid Charlie]

I can't understand the mystery and the shaking of heads for people who seem to want to fly low -- It's human nature to thrill seek -- jumping out of a airplane -- climbing mount everest -- doing all sorts of dumb ass stuff -- look at the money made from the "Jackass" movies -- there will always be somebody out there who will push the envelope -- there are a lot more stupid things that are more dangerous going on -- to me low flying is a non issue -- now with the introduction of GPS there are more guys flying bullsh1t IFR in their beavers and such -- that to me is far more scary than .. running along a water route.

[snoopy]

Hey LC,
You might want to try the re-size (for web) feature on your photo site...
You've taken the forum into a new dimension....

[Liquid Charlie]

haha -- ya -- it was just the link -- but it works on the 24" monitor -- -- how's that ?? --

[LH]

For all those here who have a desire to be another "Joe Dynamic, Hero of the Bush" type pilot. allow me to give you some small pieces of advise before you venture forward anymore.

First determine the following before you commence your next low level flight:

1) Where are all the towers of any type located and how high are they and their wires?

2) How many of those same towers are high enough to require red beacons and how many of those same towers have those beacons even operating at present?

3) How many other low level a/c, like R/W, may be operating in the same area at very low altitudes or are landing and taking-off from various sites within your flight path that Mot or few other people even know anything about?

3) How many Hydro transmission lines are located in your flight path and how high are those towers and how low do their static lines sag?

4) How many of those same Hydro towers cross over various rivers that may be within your flight path?

5) How many of those same Hydro towers that cross over rivers have their static lines strung BENEATH the transmission lines and not ONTOP of the transmission lines as is mostly normal?

6) How many rivers have Water Survey of Canada cables running across them that are marked om aviation maps and how many exist that ARE NOT marked or indicated on any aviation map of any type, aanywhere.

7) ALL a/c are made by sub-contractors who have won the tenders to supply those parts to build your a/c because they submitted the lowest bids. Remember that the next time you are cruising along at 250'-300' in your wonderful flying machine because they make a/c every day on assembly lines, but all your parts are presently on "Back-Order".

This all comes from somebody who has been adeqiuately paid on many occasions over the last 45 years to take all manner of a/c to very low levels and in some cases 300' was TOO high. If you think that that was fun to do so many, many times then you are in serious need of a lobotomy. Lastly, always remember it's a lot easier to turn altitude into airspeed than it is to turn speed into altitude once all you can hear is that eerie silence from your engine(s). If you still wish to continue low level flying then I suggest that you find out what a 'McPherson Seat Belt' is and where to buy one.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Now my question is... How does TC become aware of a bird strike?

A better question would be how will my family and friends feel at my funeral caused by the bird strike that came through the windshield and killed me?

I can attest to the force of a bird strike on a windshild having hit a duck at low level that shattered a WW2 windshield that was designed to resist high impacts ( Two layers of glass with a flexible material sandwiched between the two layers.

By the way when it happened I was flying a water bomber and flying within both my company operating rules and all other rules.