I would like to start with a suggestion that would improve instructors pay.
To improve the instructors pay you must first improve the quality of instruction to lower the flight hours that it takes to pass the flight test.
Then you can charge more per hour to pay the instructors.
Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, I WAS Birddog
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
In order to improve the quality of instruction, one could increase the pay to attract experienced instructors / pilots?
chicken and egg
chicken and egg
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
Exactly......
But it is not a chicken and egg issue......
Instruction skills are just that a learned skill.....surely there are instructors who are worthy of more pay?
But it is not a chicken and egg issue......
Instruction skills are just that a learned skill.....surely there are instructors who are worthy of more pay?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
without a doubt there are, but they are few and far between. I imagine it would be hard for a busy school to hire nothing but top gun instructors. they wouldnt find enough, their planes wouldnt fly as much, they wouldnt make as much money.. . wrote:Exactly......
But it is not a chicken and egg issue......
Instruction skills are just that a learned skill.....surely there are instructors who are worthy of more pay?
was instructing always a stepping stone job? was there ever a time where it was standard to pay an instructor a salary, and when it instructing was regarded as a "top of the ladder" job?
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
No it has not been a top of the ladder job in the puppy mill mentality end of aviation.
was instructing always a stepping stone job? was there ever a time where it was standard to pay an instructor a salary, and when it instructing was regarded as a "top of the ladder" job?
However it is a very good paying job in the higher end of aviation.
My opinion is it should at least pay a living wage.....and as a result the industry will produce better trained pilots.
If no one agrees with me of course then my thread is a waste of time.
By the way I do teach flying and earn a fair pay for doing so, if I can do it so can others.....so lets have some discussion on improving the training industry.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
There should be more restrictions in regards to who can teach instructors. They should have more education background as well as some out-of-school experience. Some? Class 1 instructors have never seen outside VFR, never had to land in difficult conditions and have no clue about hoe people learn (outside the TC info).
How can you justify paying someone more if all they know how to do is help you pass the test.
Also, there are instructors who only want to build time. I bet a large chunk of instructors see instructing as time building and nothing else. How can you make this part of the industry more professional when people look at the job as a ... right of passage?
How can you justify paying someone more if all they know how to do is help you pass the test.
Also, there are instructors who only want to build time. I bet a large chunk of instructors see instructing as time building and nothing else. How can you make this part of the industry more professional when people look at the job as a ... right of passage?
Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac. George Orwell
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
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BoostedNihilist
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
Yeah, disclaimer, I don't know shit.
1. I would have to say change the planes to something more difficult/fun to fly. 3rd wheel on the back, stick between the legs and maybe a transponder. I know switching aircraft changed my training paradigm for the better. This would cascade down through to all elements of aviation, be it the weekend warrior, or the instructor who has the hands and feet to back up his bookreadin skills.Also, when you do get a good young guy, maybe he would be happy to stay around and fly/teach in something for the fun of it... because it would be fun and there wouldn't be an incentive to fly a pc-12. For instance, if you're flying/teaching in an extra.. why would you leave to fly a 747?
2. Also, there should be some prestigious award thats given out by industry peers to recognized good FTUs and College programs. Could be used as a marketing tool to develope a solid school with solid clients to provide revenue to solid instructors. Have a 'secret' student who goes and 'tastes the food' and write a review on how it 'tasted' in a national type magazine.
3. Also, like the 'webster' there should be a competition for fresh CPL licensees (hours limited) to test their skills out against each other.. could be coupled with the above award to really make flight training a prestigious occupation... When you have competition, pride comes along with that, and people will go either broke, or get successful to inflate their ego, we can use this to make the industry better.
4. Educate mom and dad. If they knew they weren't getting the best for what theyre paying, which is a SHIITLOAD, they might like to know, and see where their choice ranks vs. the other options.
1. I would have to say change the planes to something more difficult/fun to fly. 3rd wheel on the back, stick between the legs and maybe a transponder. I know switching aircraft changed my training paradigm for the better. This would cascade down through to all elements of aviation, be it the weekend warrior, or the instructor who has the hands and feet to back up his bookreadin skills.Also, when you do get a good young guy, maybe he would be happy to stay around and fly/teach in something for the fun of it... because it would be fun and there wouldn't be an incentive to fly a pc-12. For instance, if you're flying/teaching in an extra.. why would you leave to fly a 747?
2. Also, there should be some prestigious award thats given out by industry peers to recognized good FTUs and College programs. Could be used as a marketing tool to develope a solid school with solid clients to provide revenue to solid instructors. Have a 'secret' student who goes and 'tastes the food' and write a review on how it 'tasted' in a national type magazine.
3. Also, like the 'webster' there should be a competition for fresh CPL licensees (hours limited) to test their skills out against each other.. could be coupled with the above award to really make flight training a prestigious occupation... When you have competition, pride comes along with that, and people will go either broke, or get successful to inflate their ego, we can use this to make the industry better.
4. Educate mom and dad. If they knew they weren't getting the best for what theyre paying, which is a SHIITLOAD, they might like to know, and see where their choice ranks vs. the other options.
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small penguin
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
QFT!Wacko wrote:Also, there are instructors who only want to build time. I bet a large chunk of instructors see instructing as time building and nothing else. How can you make this part of the industry more professional when people look at the job as a ... right of passage?
If they're only there to build time to get into the airlines... Do they really care how they're training the students?
Fix the instructors' mentality, then fix the payscale, if they deserve it.
Curious, I know roughly what the instructors at the club make on a per hour basis... but overall. Someone isnt in poverty working full time at Tim Hortons, and I'd assume a full time flight instructor who isnt a douche bag would make more than the kid serving your cup of coffee?
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
Keep in mind that Tim's is open rain or shine and instructors only get paid when they fly (some exceptions)... you end up working "full time" for about 6 hours a day (with exceptions).....
Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac. George Orwell
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
Disclaimer: The above post was not meant to offend anyone.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
My little brother works at starbucks. I'll make 10k more than him as a class 4 (assuming I can get 100 hours a month every month of the year) to make his money he works 8 hours a day 5 days a week to make mine I fly 5 hours a day 5 days a week. Sounds like a better deal. However usually to get that 5 hours i'm at the airport for 10-12 hours so instead of being 40 hours a week say I work say 60 hours a week. starbucks pays 9/ hour X 60 = $540 a week. 25 hours a week flying (sometimes its more sometimes less) X $22 = $550. So if we went to work and got home at the same time we'd make the same money.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
A few things I think would help flight training.
- A requirement for a class 1 instructor to hold an ATPL.
- the requirement of more PIC time 3-400 hours to get a class 4.
- give more credit for previous experience to encourage retirees to teach. Automatic class 3 rather then class 4.
- make it mandatory to hold a class 2 or better to teach CPL & IFR.
Almost every flight school in Canada knows that its hard to find and keep good instructors, requiring more experience will make the pay go up. Just as it has started doing in SW Ontario, a class 4 can get $35/hr. Once an instructor is making 40-50K a year it will hard to take a pay cut and move north for an FO job.
- A requirement for a class 1 instructor to hold an ATPL.
- the requirement of more PIC time 3-400 hours to get a class 4.
- give more credit for previous experience to encourage retirees to teach. Automatic class 3 rather then class 4.
- make it mandatory to hold a class 2 or better to teach CPL & IFR.
Almost every flight school in Canada knows that its hard to find and keep good instructors, requiring more experience will make the pay go up. Just as it has started doing in SW Ontario, a class 4 can get $35/hr. Once an instructor is making 40-50K a year it will hard to take a pay cut and move north for an FO job.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
I know this may be a stupid question -- but what evidence have any of you seen to support flight instruction needs improving (aside from the usual money issue?
What I'm getting at is -- I'm wondering for some of you newbies trying to get your license -- if you even noticed anything about the quality if instruction, ect...
Aside from the money issue -for instructors -- I wonder if the students are noticing anything funny or disappointing.
I know I've seen negative stuff.
What I'm getting at is -- I'm wondering for some of you newbies trying to get your license -- if you even noticed anything about the quality if instruction, ect...
Aside from the money issue -for instructors -- I wonder if the students are noticing anything funny or disappointing.
I know I've seen negative stuff.
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BoostedNihilist
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
What I'm getting at is -- I'm wondering for some of you newbies trying to get your license -- if you even noticed anything about the quality if instruction, ect...
MeowCat..
It's like the matrix k, if you live in the matrix you don't know you're in it! You need someone to rip you out and show you! As a newbie we're at the mercy of the market, so unless we're lucky enough to be from an aviation family, we're starting as a blank page for whever we get out PPL/CPL to write on... as they see fit, and how would we *KNOW* any better. Basically, we are spoonfed so we don't know how to feed ourselves.
The funniest thing I have seen is when my instructor went to full slip on final so I could see the topless ladies on the beach.. but I think that was to my benefit so Im cool with it.Aside from the money issue -for instructors -- I wonder if the students are noticing anything funny or disappointing.
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tired of the ground
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
I actually ranted about this exact topic about 6 months ago.
Easiest way to fix the flight training industry?? Get rid of it. No more instructors as we know them.
Step 1. To get a PPL you must be able to pass a flight test. No syallabus of required number of hours, just a "can you do it" flight test. Caveat: Instructor must have 1000 hrs of flight time in a commercial operation. No more blind leading the blind.
Step 2. For you commercial guys no more flight test. You already did a flight test for the private and as it stands, the commercial flight test is essentially the same thing. You now have to do an apprenticeship. You have to fly in the right seat for 1000 hours and have training captains sign off on certain maneuvers in your log book. Once you complete all the maneuvers and have 3 training captains sign off you get a commercial license. VFR & IFR operations both have an apprenticeship you have to complete. To switch once you have one, only requires 500hr apprenticeship in the other.
Is it perfect? No. Is the current system perfect? *$&# NO. I do agree with Cat that something needs to be done about the current situation.
As a footnote: I am the first person to call myself a hypocrite because I was a 250 hour instructor myself.
Easiest way to fix the flight training industry?? Get rid of it. No more instructors as we know them.
Step 1. To get a PPL you must be able to pass a flight test. No syallabus of required number of hours, just a "can you do it" flight test. Caveat: Instructor must have 1000 hrs of flight time in a commercial operation. No more blind leading the blind.
Step 2. For you commercial guys no more flight test. You already did a flight test for the private and as it stands, the commercial flight test is essentially the same thing. You now have to do an apprenticeship. You have to fly in the right seat for 1000 hours and have training captains sign off on certain maneuvers in your log book. Once you complete all the maneuvers and have 3 training captains sign off you get a commercial license. VFR & IFR operations both have an apprenticeship you have to complete. To switch once you have one, only requires 500hr apprenticeship in the other.
Is it perfect? No. Is the current system perfect? *$&# NO. I do agree with Cat that something needs to be done about the current situation.
As a footnote: I am the first person to call myself a hypocrite because I was a 250 hour instructor myself.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
Thank you tired of the ground for making some very interesting suggestions.
Now lets see the instructor group examine what you suggested.....personally I think you are on to something here because it is so logical.
Remember it is your industry and it is not the property of Transport Canada..
Transport Canada is your regulator and as such must work in your best interest.
They used to be referred to as " Civil Servants " because they worked in the employ of the taxpayer......however they are now " Self servants "
So fu'k e'm lets see if we can do something to improve our industry, I would go to my grave smiling if I knew I did something positive for those who work in this business.
Flying has been very good to me, now I want it to be good to you.
Now lets see the instructor group examine what you suggested.....personally I think you are on to something here because it is so logical.
Remember it is your industry and it is not the property of Transport Canada..
Transport Canada is your regulator and as such must work in your best interest.
They used to be referred to as " Civil Servants " because they worked in the employ of the taxpayer......however they are now " Self servants "
So fu'k e'm lets see if we can do something to improve our industry, I would go to my grave smiling if I knew I did something positive for those who work in this business.
Flying has been very good to me, now I want it to be good to you.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
If that system could be put in place i think it would be great. Heck i'd bump back down to PPL and do the apprentiship. (probably get me to a good job faster 
)
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
One thing for sure....
....as long as flight instruction is used as a means to build time to get employed as a Commercial pilot the students get monetarily sodomized and deprived of quality instruction.
....as long as flight instruction is used as a means to build time to get employed as a Commercial pilot the students get monetarily sodomized and deprived of quality instruction.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
I think the apprentice option is a good one, and god forbid, maybe something that can actually happen with the new multi-crew license that they are tossing around (although I am not entirely sold on it). People harp on the 250 hr instructors that are out there just to build time to get into the industry, but what other options are there.
Really how different should the training be for pilots compared to say a carpenter apprentice. You want these new pilots to learn in actually conditions then structure a program that lets them go to school, then flight for a company to build experience, then go back to school, just like the apprenticeship trades program. Yes this is a government regulated industry and why not offer some of the breaks to employers willing to apprentice these young guys. You have the benefit of passing down some of the priceless knowledge that is being lost through retirement and there wouldn't be the situation of the blind leading the blind.
Yes instructors are underpaid, but really, if you want to kill the industry you just have to keep raising the price of flight training. With an apprenticeship, government sponsored program, you'd have better qualified young pilots learning from real experience, earning a decent wage and not being 50 g's in debt. Of course its all good in theory and there are a lot of nuts and bolts to work out, but I think it would be a start.
Really how different should the training be for pilots compared to say a carpenter apprentice. You want these new pilots to learn in actually conditions then structure a program that lets them go to school, then flight for a company to build experience, then go back to school, just like the apprenticeship trades program. Yes this is a government regulated industry and why not offer some of the breaks to employers willing to apprentice these young guys. You have the benefit of passing down some of the priceless knowledge that is being lost through retirement and there wouldn't be the situation of the blind leading the blind.
Yes instructors are underpaid, but really, if you want to kill the industry you just have to keep raising the price of flight training. With an apprenticeship, government sponsored program, you'd have better qualified young pilots learning from real experience, earning a decent wage and not being 50 g's in debt. Of course its all good in theory and there are a lot of nuts and bolts to work out, but I think it would be a start.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
The price of flight training is based on how many hours the student has to pay for to reach a standard to pass the tests.Yes instructors are underpaid, but really, if you want to kill the industry you just have to keep raising the price of flight training.
The minimum time requirement is 45 hours for the PPL.
The average time to get a PPL in Canada is about 70 or more hours.
If the student is taught to the standard in 45 hours the instructors could make more money per hour.
.Yes this is a government regulated industry and why not offer some of the breaks to employers willing to apprentice these young guys
Who would give the breakes to the employers, TC?
How?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
[quote]Quote:
Yes this is a government regulated industry and why not offer some of the breaks to employers willing to apprentice these young guys
.
Who would give the breakes to the employers, TC?
How?/quote]
Who gives breaks to the employers who take on registered apprentices?
Yes this is a government regulated industry and why not offer some of the breaks to employers willing to apprentice these young guys
.
Who would give the breakes to the employers, TC?
How?/quote]
Who gives breaks to the employers who take on registered apprentices?
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
I agree that it would be great if the government gave employers a break for hiring apprentice instructors.....but we are talking about Transport Canada here and they only understand how to invent more road blocks to private enterprise...
...how many positive incentives can you think of that TC offers the industry?
If change is to be brought about in the training industry it will have to come from the industry through co-operation between the owners of the schools and the employees of the schools.
Maybe a two tiered system would be a good start.....schools that offer quality instruction and pay quality wages....
......and the puppy mill system so common now.
...how many positive incentives can you think of that TC offers the industry?
If change is to be brought about in the training industry it will have to come from the industry through co-operation between the owners of the schools and the employees of the schools.
Maybe a two tiered system would be a good start.....schools that offer quality instruction and pay quality wages....
......and the puppy mill system so common now.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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small penguin
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
Not necessarily. Im sure most flight clubs... when they say to a student the instructor rate is 45 dollars an hour, Im sure the instructor gets less then half. Or *maybe* half. You can keep the same costs to a student but raise the instructors' rates.Yes instructors are underpaid, but really, if you want to kill the industry you just have to keep raising the price of flight training.
Now one thing instructors do fail often on is taking care of the airplane. Too few are instructors who teach how to fuel the tanks, fill the oil, PROPERLY tow it, make journey log entries, or any of that other jazz.
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
That's male bovine excrement (I hope that's delicate and sensitiveYes instructors are underpaid, but really, if you want to kill the industry you just have to keep raising the price of flight training
enough for the politically-correct, drunk-with-power moderators
here. If this post gets deleted, too, I guess that's the answer).
People said years ago that flight instructors have to be paid
less-than-poverty-level wages, to keep flight instruction
affordable. You know, all the "love-to-fly" and "pay-your-dues"
arguments.
Then, insurance skyrocketed after 2001 because insurance
companies lost a bundle on the stock market crash, and had
to make up their losses with increased premiums because
insurance companies are by definition always, always profitable.
Then, fuel prices skyrocketed. One hundred dollars a barrel
for oil, anyone?
In response to both of the above, the costs of flight instruction
went up, because operators can screw instructors, but they
can't screw insurance companies or the oil companies (though
I am sure they would if they could).
And still, flight instructors are left earning less-than-poverty
level wages.
If it hasn't been censored by the moderators, there was
an excellent thread on instructor salaries here - I am sure
most people would find it eye-opening, instructors earning
less than $10k a year.
Remember, although Canada is a glorious socialist republic,
sometimes (but not always) you get what you pay for.
Maybe no one taught them? . and I have railed forToo few are instructors who teach how to fuel the tanks, fill the oil, PROPERLY tow it, make journey log entries, or any of that other jazz.
years that the blind are teaching the blind (which I understand
hurts some people's feelings). I have ranted endlessly about
how previous experience with mechanical equipment is a great
advantage for a pilot, and I am continually corrected by the
city boys who tell me that they don't have to know any of
that stuff to get hired by Jazz today
Ok, moderators, have at it! Start censoring this!
Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
FWIW...when I did my private years ago, I asked an engineer to do the walk around with me telling what I should look for from his perspective. It was really impressive and helped me really look at an airplane before I jumped into it.
bmc
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Lets have a think tank on improving flight instruction.
To use the argument that raising the cost of learning to fly by paying the instructors a living wage is disingenuous.
Maybe that is the problem here, Canadians have been so dumbed down by the socialistic education system that it is to be expected it would naturally infect the flight training industry.
Maybe people like Hedley and I are wasting our time trying to make the industry better and should just let it implode on its own.
Oh well, I'm betting we will have a real three ring circus of entertainment with some of the screw ups by some of these new foreign student factories that are getting under way. It should prove to be interesting when the blind try and lead the deaf in some of these schools.
Maybe that is the problem here, Canadians have been so dumbed down by the socialistic education system that it is to be expected it would naturally infect the flight training industry.
Maybe people like Hedley and I are wasting our time trying to make the industry better and should just let it implode on its own.
Oh well, I'm betting we will have a real three ring circus of entertainment with some of the screw ups by some of these new foreign student factories that are getting under way. It should prove to be interesting when the blind try and lead the deaf in some of these schools.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
