why ATC should have a aviation back ground

[KAFUFO]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlvbjerCzwk

I hate when I loose both vacume tubes

[Jerricho]

Or how about that dreaded three engine approach by a 727.............true story!

[scrambled_legs]

the 3 engine 727 approach??? WOW... scary!!! It's important for us to know how many blow holes an airplane has but as far as learning systems and such, there's no point.

Why a pilot would report that he's had a dual vacuum pump failure is beyond me. Even if we know what it is, we still don't know what he needs. Don't tell us what's gone wrong and make us try and figure out the best course of action, just tell us you have an equipment failure and what we should do for you. Tell your maintenance what type of failure you've had.

[KAFUFO]

Why a pilot would report that he's had a dual vacuum pump failure is beyond me. Even if we know what it is, we still don't know what he needs. Don't tell us what's gone wrong and make us try and figure out the best course of action, just tell us you have an equipment failure and what we should do for you.

Yeh just what I need. My attitude indicators showing me in a spiral dive my preformance instruments are showing me something else and you now want me to explain to you what the failure means to me.

Even if we know what it is, we still don't know what he needs

this one is fairly strait forward he need's to get visual refference either above or below the clouds.

[grimey]

Why a pilot would report that he's had a dual vacuum pump failure is beyond me. Even if we know what it is, we still don't know what he needs. Don't tell us what's gone wrong and make us try and figure out the best course of action, just tell us you have an equipment failure and what we should do for you.

Yeh just what I need. My attitude indicators showing me in a spiral dive my preformance instruments are showing me something else and you now want me to explain to you what the failure means to me.

How is saying you need to exit IMC right now more complicated than saying you have a dual vacuum pump failure?

[KAFUFO]

What was I thinking, your right.

Would you like an extra cushion for your chair.

P.S. if that girl had any type of aviation experiance she would imidiatly have know the gravity of the situation and been figuring out the bases.

[jetboy1975]

"why ATC should have an aviation background"???

I agree that all controllers should have an aviation background and a pilots licence as well. There are a lot of dumb f*** pilots out there that need us to fly the planes for them too!

[KAFUFO]

There are a lot of dumb f*** pilots out there that need us to fly the planes for them too!

I've said it before. If you weren't there all aviation would just come to a grinding halt and we'd all just have to walk. Besides with out you I would have never got to see nearly as much of Minnisoda when comming to Winnipeg from the north

But on a more serious note I don't think it would be that difficult to throw a important systems section into your recurrent training.

[grimey]

What was I thinking, your right.

Would you like an extra cushion for your chair.

P.S. if that girl had any type of aviation experiance she would imidiatly have know the gravity of the situation and been figuring out the bases.

And it's irrelevant information as far as the immediate reaction of the controller is concerned. All they care about is where you need to be, and where other aircraft are. Declare an emergency, and say you need lower or higher, or whatever. Worry about saying why later. You could take your arguement a step further, and say that a specific fuse has blown, should the controller be required to know the systems for every aircraft in the sky? Controllers need to know about separation standards, and how to apply them, you don't. You need to know how to fly your plane, controllers don't.

Want a blanket while you have your hand held all over the sky?

[yrp]

:
Why a pilot would report that he's had a dual vacuum pump failure is beyond me. Even if we know what it is, we still don't know what he needs. Don't tell us what's gone wrong and make us try and figure out the best course of action, just tell us you have an equipment failure and what we should do for you. Tell your maintenance what type of failure you've had.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there special handling procedures or at least precautions for an aircraft with no gyros? Keep him straight while climbing/descending and the like? So wouldn't you want to know that he's got a vacuum system failure vs some other kind of issue where he wants to get out of IMC?

[KAFUFO]

Want a blanket while you have your hand held all over the sky?

How can there be special proceadures when these guy's clearly just think this a game of moving the little dots all over the screen and who gives a f*ck what's going on

[W0XOF]

It's about clear and concise communication. Most pilots are very reluctant to declare an emergency. It then becomes a guessing a game. When we declare one for them, company sure gets pissed off when the passengers see a conga line of ARFF waiting at the hold line.

Tell ATC/FSS exactly what you need and you will get it. No guessing. No time wasted.

[Jerricho]

[But on a more serious note I don't think it would be that difficult to throw a important systems section into your recurrent training.

It's not difficult mate, however our refresher training time is becoming more and more time "pinched" if you will. At this time we have National and Local Recurrent/Refresher, which we then get 4 hours to play in the sim. We are bound to cover topics Ottawa have deemed we cover (this years in Winnipeg is "Loss Of Separation Recovery"). There are also emergency "checklists" at each radar position, covering topics from Fuel Dump procedures, Lost Aircraft, Hijack, Emergency Surveillance Approaches and emergency contact numbers. There is normally a lot of discussion on the refreshers a well, with war stories and "This one time, at Controller camp, I had this plane fall out of the sky coz of............" But there are so many potential nasties that can pop up, especially when you're dealing with so many types, it's not really possible encompass everything.

I'll be honest, when I heard this audio, my first thoughts were "Is he IMC/VMC? and nearest suitable airfield if required". Controller #2 in the audio sounds like he's in the know. But, look again at the first transmission from 9NL (of course, we can all play armchair quarterbacks for this, and "Human Factors" this one to death, and I'll not pass comment on what transpired from about half way through). The controller is paying attention, as she has seen the altitude change. The pilot doesn't seem to be conveying any sense of urgency, and mentions "backup systems". Another thought that went through my mind was "There's probably quite a bit going on on that flight deck". A quick web-trawl reveals the aircraft was Cessna 210 Centurion, in which there was a single instrument rated private pilot with 2 passengers (all were unfortunately killed). The pilot is not indicating any "Oh sh*t" factor at this stage going on what is being said and tone of voice. The controller tells him to let her know if they need any assistance. If the pilot had simply said "I need to get VMC now and land this thing!", I'm betting the scenario may have transpired a little differently.

[scrambled_legs]

Even if we know what it is, we still don't know what he needs

this one is fairly strait forward he need's to get visual refference either above or below the clouds.

Wow... this thread should be a lesson in getting your point across to ATC and cutting down on useless information. I hate it when pilots make you play the guessing game. Don't tell us what's gone wrong, tell us what you need. This would have been a much better initial transmission.
-Center ##### declaring an emergency, we've had an equipment failure and need an immediate straight slow descent to below the bases and we're having trouble maintaining heading or altitude.
-#####, heading your discretion descend and maintain 12,000 the bases are 13.

That is clear and concise. Or you can play the guessing game. Suppose we're dealing with a controller who's also an AME and a pilot

-Uh center ####, we've had a dual vacuum pump failure.
-#### Roger, are you able to continue encourse on the electric backup.
-#### Uh no, we need to continue in VMC
-#### are you declaring an emergency.
-#### Uh yes, we need to get VFR now
-####, do you want to climb above the cloud and descend at your destination or do you want to descend now?
-#### we better descend now.
-####, start a descent to 12,000 the bases are 13,000
-#### roger
-#### Are you able to maintain your current heading or will you need to deviate
-#### Uh, we are having trouble controlling the plane and may need to deviate
-#### heading your discretion.

See what I mean? We ended up doing the exact same thing even though we would have no clue what problem you're experiencing in your first transmission. It doesn't matter!!!

What if I told you that I had a NARDS failure? What would you do? Should I expect you to know what that is and what I now need to do? Now what if you took a fancy ATC systems course and knew that NARDS was our radar display. Would you now know what I need to do?
I know all about aircraft systems, I've even practiced vacuum failures under the hood, and I wouldn't have a clue what the pilot needs until I went through the 20 question guessing game above. Telling anyone but your Maitenance what the failure is, is pointless. Tell us what you need us to do, NOT what is wrong. If you have time, then sure go ahead and mention it. It'll help shorten the post crash investigation but it sure as hell won't help us to control the situation.

[KAFUFO]

I'll be honest, when I heard this audio, my first thoughts were "Is he IMC/VMC? and nearest suitable airfield if required". Controller #2 in the audio sounds like he's in the know.

You are a fantastic contributor to this board.

One of these posts is not like the other

Can you guess who I'd rather be sitting at the screen

[invertedattitude]

Having an aviation background can only serve to help both sides.

There are some controllers who wouldn't know a 747 from a A340 to look at them, but they know what they need to know about them to separate airplanes... how fast they fly, climb, descend etc.

I have a personal hobby, some call it morbid, but I enjoy studying aviation accidents and incidents, coupled with my own personal flight experience I feel I'm better prepared to handle certain emergencies should they arise than some people doing the same job, the ones who will argue with me are those who either A.) refuse to learn the material, or B.) just don't care.

I may be young and impressionable, but ATC to me is an incredibly important job, and spending a little time on your own learning about different aspects that could possibly affect you on a day to day basis shouldn't be something controllers resist just because they're not being paid for it.

I realize ATC is just a paycheck to some people, same as flying is just a paycheck to some pilots, but there are many of us who not only feel we should, but enjoy going the extra mile when it comes to safety related practices.

I really wish some controllers wouldn't have the attitude on here "I don't care whats wrong tell me what you want".

While I do agree that first off, I want you to declare an emergency and state your itentions, there are incredibly important reasons to know whats gone wrong and how it affects that aircraft.

If a twin engine airplane suffers an engine failure of the #1 engine, which way do you think the pilot is going to want to turn, pilots know the answer to that question, and I believe a controller should as well. Unfortunately, many controllers don't even know which engine would be the #1 engine.

There are very generic items controllers can learn that apply to every aircraft in the sky.

Many times pilots in an emergency don't have time to explain the situation to us... all we might get is "Mayday soandso, we've lost the #1 engine" or something along those lines, he's now in IMC trying to perform checklists, troubleshoot the situation, he may be dealing with an engine fire as well, all things he doesn't have time to communicate to us, but with that one simple transmission a controller should know which way that airplane is going to want to turn, and be able to find the most suitable field, and be able to predict where this airplane is going next, the last thing a pilot wants in any emergency is questions from ATC. Aviate,Navigate, Communicate in that order, we are the last to know, but that doesn't alleviate our responsibility to render assistance using the best information we have.

Now obviously no emergency is cut and dry, and no two are the same, but knowing what a vaccum failure is will drive home the importance of the situation to the controller without having to ask any more questions, leaving the pilots to handle their airplane and not give a lesson on aircraft systems.

I know there's going to be multiple people take this post and chastise it saying "Its not my job to know how airplanes work" No technically its not "our job" but it is our responsibilty morally if not legally to do our jobs to the best of our ability considering the potential consequences of doing it wrong, and making statements like "Its not my job to know" is in my opinion bordering on arrogance and or laziness, while the company should be including this as part of our training, we cannot force them to without considerable time and effort, and even then it may not occur, having an attitude of "I don't care if they won't teach me" might come back to bite you someday when you're trying to get someone on the ground.

[W0XOF]

When we declare one for them, company sure gets pissed off when the passengers see a conga line of ARFF waiting at the hold line.

Personally, the feelings of the passengers is a matter that I could not possibly be less concerned about in that situation...

That was part of my point.

[grimey]

Would you like an extra cushion for your chair.

Want a blanket while you have your hand held all over the sky?

How can there be special proceadures when these guy's clearly just think this a game of moving the little dots all over the screen and who gives a f*ck what's going on

If you want to trivialize the careers of everyone in ATS, don't get pissed off when we trivialize yours. Happy? go @#$! yourself.

[KAFUFO]

If you want to trivialize the careers of everyone in ATS, don't get pissed off when we trivialize yours. Happy? go @$#! yourself.

I'm not pissed off just pointing out who I'd rather have sitting at the screen.

go @$#! yourself

I'm talented, but not that talented. Care to demonstrate

[Bushnip]

“why ATC should have a aviation back ground"

LOL. Nice grammar.

If your intention is to bash the intelligence of ATC on an ATC forum at least show some yourself.

WOW.

[xlent]

ok KAFUFO,

So we tell ATC whats wrong with the airplane and they tell us what to do? I guess you have to work on you PDM skills. When was the last time you heard ATC say "you no longer have the required separation with the airplane in front of you so go ahead and figure out how your gonna fix it and let me know"

Just curious? Do you know what a dual AHRS failure involves...i bet you had to look it up right? You may know the systems on your clapped out Navajo or whatever it is your flying but I guarantee you don't know even the basics of some more advanced airplanes. Neither do most Air Traffic Controllers and neither should they have to. You worry about keeping the blue side up and in doing so, let ATC know what they can do to help

[FamilyGuy]

Pilots fly airplanes.

ATC separate airplanes.

PERIOD!

Take the "moral responsibility" and "professionalism" to know either job - roll it into a tight little ball - and shove it up your ........

NOBODY has any business thinking they know what the other side needs to do in an emergency. An appreciation of what the other side is doing - fine. Telling pilots what to do or "interprating based on what I read online".....really?????

That won't stand up in court. In fact, you'd likely be tried for undue influence, or abuse of authority, or criminal negligence, or interfering in the operation of an aircraft etc etc etc.

Save the "Hollywood" ATC saves the day crap. Let the pilots fly the plane and pilots TELL ATC what you NEED, not what your problem is.

Pretty simple stuff here folks....

[invertedattitude]

Alright FamilyGuy, take the words and twist them and spin them all you want.

Not sure who's post your speaking of, but you made reference to mine, and keep in mind I never said anything about telling a pilot what to do.

My only example was that controllers can truly understand the gravity of the situation, and can have some expectation of what this pilot is going to want/need.

If you don't think it's important to learn more about your job once the training is over than that's fine, it's your opinion. There are many of us who do want to learn as much as they can about the job. It's not about being "hollywood" or heroic, it's about knowing everything you can about your trade, and it applies to any profession.


Why do controllers ask pilots to go on tours of ATC facilities? So they can understand what we go through on a day to day basis, not so that they can tell us how to control. It's no different for controllers trying to understand what pilots are going through so that we can understand.

I'm not sure where you control but I'm sure you've had situations where you wish the pilots understood the picture you were dealing with?

[scrambled_legs]

Xlent... well said

Inverted... I know a lot more about airplane systems then anyone else in my cab. Do I think it makes me a better controller? Hell NO! There are controllers that are 100 times better at their job then I am and they don't know squat about airplanes. They do know how to get all the information they need in a very few questions. The only thing studying aircraft systems does is make you feel more important when the pilot is rambling on about useless information and the guy beside you is going wtf is he saying??? You'd be far better off studying interrogation techniques rather than aircraft systems for the 3,000 different types of airplanes that fly through your airspace.

A vacuum system failure isn't a big deal if you have a functioning electric backup. With your limited knowledge about systems, you would have thought he needed to go VFR immediately regardless. So you panic and send him into an immediate descent rather than let him work on recovering the primary system. Just control the traffic around him and ask what he needs. Just like if he tells you he lost the #1 engine, don't automatically assume he wants a turn to the left, there may be other factors involved. Tell him turns his discretion and get your other traffic out of there, he may not even want to turn around!

I'm starting to think the more you read, the more dangerous you're becoming.

[kevenv]

Xlent and scrambled_legs:

Well said! Kudos to both of you.