Search planes to be replaced in 2014

[canwhitewolf]

Is there a door capable of dumping out a SAR tech if needed? What is the loiter/search time of the 415? Being an amphib might help though.

You need to check out the aircraft the Buffalo replaced!

http://www.rcaf.com/aircraft/patrol/albatross/index.php

*******************************************************************

love to have one of those for my own private use, good plane

[jspitfire]

Just wondering how this extreme parts shortage affects the commerical operator of the Buffalo, Arctic Sunwest. Their Buffalo's seem to do a lot of flying up here.

Just seems odd that the military, with its government funding, can't keep them flying, but yet a commercial operator can actually make a profit flying them.

[AuxBatOn]

Just wondering how this extreme parts shortage affects the commerical operator of the Buffalo, Arctic Sunwest. Their Buffalo's seem to do a lot of flying up here.

Just seems odd that the military, with its government funding, can't keep them flying, but yet a commercial operator can actually make a profit flying them.

Maybe because the military isn't paid for the services they provide? It's government funder, remember

AuxBatOn

[no name]

Somewhat related to the parts/lack of techs issue....

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/new ... a6706d3224

Air force needs $540M to keep flying
Pay up or planes stay down -- flying hours will be cut drastically, general warns

David Pugliese
The Ottawa Citizen


Thursday, April 17, 2008


The head of Canada's air force is warning that he will have to ground aircraft and reduce the flying time for other planes if he doesn't receive several hundred million dollars in additional funding for spare parts, repair work and fuel.

As many as 15 CF-18s would need to be grounded, along with four Hercules transport planes, four Aurora patrol aircraft and six Sea King helicopters because of a lack of money for parts, repair and overhaul, according to a strategic assessment produced by the air force.

Mounting fuel costs and lack of money to build hangars and other infrastructure for new planes being delivered is also putting a strain on the air force budget, warns the chief of the air staff, Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt.

The concerns are outlined in the general's strategic assessment for 2008-09, which has been leaked to the Citizen. The document and accompanying records, notes the general, provide a good summary of the pressures and risks that the air force faces in the future.

The report outlines what the air force needs to do its job, estimating an extra $540 million is needed.

Lt.-Gen. Watt was not available for an interview and air force officials could not comment.

A defence source said the air force has received $97 million to address the concerns raised by the service.

That new funding should take some of the immediate pressure off the air force, but retired officers say it won't make long-term problems go away and aircraft could still be grounded or have their flying hours reduced.

According to the assessment, the air force needs $209 million in new money for national procurement to pay for spare parts and repair and maintain aircraft fleets. "This gap, if not substantially addressed, will result in a serious loss of capability across the air force," the assessment warns. "A funding gap of this magnitude will accelerate the rate at which individual aircraft and fleets are required to be grounded and retired and will result in significant (flying) reductions, while potentially affecting civilian aircraft maintenance industries through corresponding layoffs."

An additional $110 million for spare parts and maintenance is needed just to meet the most critical shortfalls and deal with the bare minimum operational requirements, the assessment points out. But even with the minimum cash infusion of $110 million, the assessment points out that "there will remain significant operational impacts, as well as the requirement to defer work and postpone addressing some airworthiness issues. This will create a bow wave of increased costs, reduced aircraft availability, and outstanding work that will remain to be funded and completed in the future."

Serving and retired air force officers say while the Harper government has provided the cash to buy new aircraft, such as C-17 and C-130J transport planes, it has not provided enough money to maintain the service's other fleets such as CF-18 fighter jets, Aurora patrol planes, older C-130 Hercules transports and Sea King helicopters.

The lack of money to house the air force's new planes is also a problem. The government approved the purchase of four of the giant C-17 strategic transport aircraft, but there was not enough money set aside to house the aircraft and those funds will have to come from existing budgets. The same problem affects the new C-130J transport aircraft, which are expected to arrive within the next three years.

The air force estimates that new buildings to support the new aircraft fleets at Canadian Forces Base Trenton will cost $600 million over the next five years. Some of that money has been set aside from the Defence Department's procurement budget, but the bulk of it is to come from the air force.

The air force will also be required to contribute $45 million to a $176-million infrastructure plan for Canadian Forces Base Shearwater, N.S.

Some savings, however, will come from the air force's plan to cut its number of Griffon helicopters from 85 to 64 by 2010-11. Flying hours for Aurora maritime patrol planes will also be scaled back so the aircraft can go through maintenance procedures that will allow them to keep flying until 2016.

Besides the lack of money to operate aircraft, Lt.-Gen. Watt points out that he is dealing with a shrinking workforce for his organization, which requires highly-skilled technicians.

The strategic assessment notes the air force never recovered from the personnel cutbacks ordered by the Chrétien government in the mid-1990s. At the same time, the problem is made worse by the ongoing number of missions and the need to free up staff for work on transforming the military for the future.

Air technicians make up 40 per cent of the air force and the average age of those workers is 42. But 70 per cent of them are close to early or regular retirement.

"At the same time, the (air force) is experiencing significant attrition; the prospering economy and the ever-increasing burdens imposed on a limited pool of personnel draining away the very people that the AF requires to succeed in its mission," the assessment adds.

It recommends the Defence Department adopt more flexible hiring practices.

In the last several years, Liberal and Conservative governments have pumped billions of extra dollars into the defence budget, but military analysts have argued that is not enough and billions more are needed.

[Kosiw]

Has the military ever considered replacing their old -300 twotters for the new build -400 Viking version?

Not sure if a C-295 or C27 Spartan can handle getting into the real small strips or off strip, like a twotter can

[WJflyer]

I may also add that Defence in general is well over $1 billion dollars behind in infrastructure repairs because we have been shortchanged for so long. Due to the lack of funding, we often keep differing maintenance which piles up, until it gets to the point where there is no point of repairing what's broken, and you have to replace it.

Add to the fact that Defence is also severely shortchanged in many other areas, it does not make for a pretty sight. It's not only the air force that is being shortchanged, it's also the navy and the army.

[just curious]

Has the military ever considered replacing their old -300 twotters for the new build -400 Viking version?

See above, under [url]http://www.gotnofrick'enmoney.ca[/url]

[WJflyer]

Like I have said before, give the DND at least $10 billion dollars more in stable funding annually, and we might be talking.

[teacher]

DND to patch aging rescue planes as replacements put on back burner
Buffalos to be upgraded to fly until at least 2015, five years after they were supposed to be retired

David Pugliese
The Ottawa Citizen


Monday, May 12, 2008


The Defence Department will upgrade the radios and other avionics equipment on its aging Buffalo search-and-rescue planes to keep them flying until at least 2015, five years past when they were supposed to be retired.

This latest move signals that the program to replace the 40-year-old aircraft, key to search and rescue on the west coast and in parts of the Rockies, is no longer a priority, say defence industry officials.

The air force strategy for 2008, obtained by the Citizen, shows that new search-and-rescue planes won't arrive until 2015 at the earliest and won't all be in place until 2017.

That means the air force is going to have to make do with the Buffalos, first purchased in 1967 and scheduled to retire in 2010.

Those aircraft are already facing mechanical and technical problems and in December the air force ran out of spare propellers for the planes.

Military officials say it is difficult to acquire parts for the aircraft, based at CFB Comox in British Columbia, since the plane is no longer in production and only a few organizations around the world continue to operate them.

The Defence Department will proceed with what it is calling the "Buffalo Avionics Life Extension -- Lite," which will upgrade various systems on the planes. Some of the instruments now in the Buffalo do not conform to current civilian aviation standards, potentially limiting where the planes can fly in civilian airspace, pilots have said.

The Defence Department expects to have the first upgraded aircraft ready by January of next year.

The estimated cost of the project is $4.6 million, defence spokeswoman Krista Hannivan wrote in an e-mail. "Proven off-the-shelf technologies are being purchased through Field Aviation, of Calgary -- the prime component contractor for the CC-115 -- and integrated into the fleet," she added.

The upgrade will replace outdated aircraft electronic equipment and bring the Buffalo in line with modern aviation electronics standards to take the aircraft to 2015, the e-mail noted. The project will include new radios, instrument landing system receivers, emergency locator transmitters and flight data recorders, among other equipment.

"Of course, modernizing search-and-rescue aircraft is essential to supporting the air force's no-fail mission in providing search and rescue services to Canadians," Ms. Hannivan wrote.

Some previous news reports have indicated there are plans to upgrade or replace engines on the Buffalos, but defence officials could not comment on that.

The air force is also looking at an upgrade to keep some of its older Hercules aircraft flying until new search-and-rescue aircraft arrive in the 2015-17 timeframe, according to the air force's 2008 strategy.

In a January message to air force personnel, the service's commander, Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt, said acquiring a new search-and-rescue aircraft to replace the Buffalos and Hercules "is another high priority for me. We will manage and maintain our current Hercules and Buffalo fleets so that they can continue to perform this vital role until a new aircraft enters operational service."

In September 2003, then-chief of the defence staff Gen. Ray Henault announced that the $1.3-billion purchase of new search-and-rescue planes was the top equipment priority for the military. In the spring of 2004, the Liberal government said it was fast-tracking the project. Military officials said they would approach industry in September 2004 to begin the competition. The first aircraft was supposed to be delivered sometime in 2006.

Little has happened in the meantime. In the past, air force officials have blamed the lack of action on the fact that the Afghanistan mission is dominating most of the military's efforts these days. In addition, air force officers say acquiring new Chinook helicopters and C-130J aircraft is their new priority.

The issue of ongoing funding problems for the air force and the lack of action on purchasing new search-and-rescue aircraft came up in the House of Commons several weeks ago after questions were asked by NDP MPs Catherine Bell and Dawn Black.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay accused the NDP of not supporting Canadian troops and of being "in the Communist corner."

http://www.canada.com/components/print. ... f&sponsor=

[2R]

Defence Minister Peter MacKay accused the NDP of not supporting Canadian troops and of being "in the Communist corner."

http://www.canada.com/components/print. ... f&sponsor=


Perhaps if we appease the communist's they will be nicer to us than they have been to the Loatians,Vietanmese,North Koreans,Tibetians,the millions of people who have been murdered in Africa/Middle East with weapons made in communist factories.Although why would they treat a christian country any nicer than they have treated Buddist countries and godless heathens and pagans nations

[Kosiw]

Look at the clown who is running DND.....Potato Patch Pete

This is really too bad for the SAR branch of our military....

I really wonder how the military would be prepared for a major disaster involving an airliner in the high arctic? Can't send the Bufs and Twotters to the rescue....C-27's or C-295s + Hercs would be the best option...

[rigpiggy]

explain to me how a c27 or casa 295 are going to be better, they might get to the general area faster, but then must slow to loiter 500 ft up and do a visual search. Slower is better at this point, even at 500ft caribou are easily missed unless they are moving. Also good luck putting either of those 2 down on an esker or other suitable canadian animal landing area.

[sky's the limit]

Like I have said before, give the DND at least $10 billion dollars more in stable funding annually, and we might be talking.

I think $10 Billion a year is a bit excessive, there's many other areas where that dough could be better put to use.

stl

[200hr Wonder]

Well they are getting about a 1.5 Billion a year more now:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/05/ ... ml?ref=rss

Harper announces 20-year, $30B plan to beef up military
Last Updated: Monday, May 12, 2008 | 1:05 PM ET Comments425Recommend198
CBC News

The Tory government announced a 20-year, multibillion-dollar plan to strengthen Canada's military, which includes the purchase of new aircraft, armoured vehicles, ships and helicopters, and a goal to expand the Forces to 100,000.

Referring to it as the "Canada First Defence Strategy," Prime Minister Stephen Harper said the long-term investments in the military could reach costs of up to $30 billion.

"If a country wants to be taken seriously in the world, it must have the capacity to act. It's that simple," Harper said Monday at the Halifax Armoury, joined by Defence Minister Peter MacKay. "Otherwise, you forfeit your right to be a player. You're the one chattering on the sideline that everyone smiles at, but no one listens to."

Much of what was announced on Monday has been revealed before by the government.

"The newest thing about this announcement is that it is a long-term plan," Harper said when asked by a reporter.

Harper said this strategy will focus on replacing some of the military's core equipment fleets, including destroyers, frigates and different types of aircraft that will end their operational life over the next 20 years.

The plan will also seek to boost the strength of the regular Forces from 65,000 to 70,000 and the reserves from 24,000 to 30,000.

"Renewal of the Canadian Forces is the most pressing priority," Harper said, adding the average age in the military is rising.

Harper said the plan will also improve surveillance of land and coastal borders, bolster support for civilian authority in the event of natural disasters, and provide security to major national events like the 2010 Olympics.

Harper said having a long-term plan for stable funding will create jobs and opportunities for tens of thousands of Canadians who work in the defence industry and communities with military bases.

[teacher]

Just saw this today. 65 really doesn't seem to be enough if you ask me considering the amount that are in training and maintenance. Maybe to intercept airliners but in the event that an international crisis hits somewhere that really doesn't leave alot of attrition room, even if we lose some to accidents. I wonder if these may be focused more on air to air engagements while leaving the air to ground missions to a possible UAV type platform?

Canada to buy fewer F-35 fighters than thought

Mon May 12, 2008 3:59pm EDT

OTTAWA, May 12 (Reuters) - The Canadian government said on Monday it would buy 65 new F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, a figure lower than the 80 planes that had widely circulated in the media.

"One of the reasons there will be fewer of the new fighters is we anticipate the new fighters will have significantly greater capacity than existing fighters," Prime Minister Stephen Harper told a news conference.

He was speaking in Nova Scotia as he unveiled what he called the Canada First Defence Strategy, involving C$30 billion ($30 billion) in projected new military spending for the next 20 years.

The F-35s will replace Canada's CF-18s, which are scheduled to reach the end of their working lives in 2017-20. Canada bought 138 of them in the 1980s and now has 98, 80 of which are being refurbished.

Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) will make the F-35s. The Joint Strike Fighter program is being funded by the United States, Canada and seven other countries.

($1=$1.00 Canadian (Reporting by Randall Palmer and David Ljunggren; Editing by Peter Galloway)

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndu ... 5420080512

[WJflyer]

Well they are getting about a 1.5 Billion a year more now:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/05/ ... ml?ref=rss

Harper announces 20-year, $30B plan to beef up military
Last Updated: Monday, May 12, 2008 | 1:05 PM ET Comments425Recommend198
CBC News

The Tory government announced a 20-year, multibillion-dollar plan to strengthen Canada's military, which includes the purchase of new aircraft, armoured vehicles, ships and helicopters, and a goal to expand the Forces to 100,000.

Referring to it as the "Canada First Defence Strategy," Prime Minister Stephen Harper said the long-term investments in the military could reach costs of up to $30 billion.

"If a country wants to be taken seriously in the world, it must have the capacity to act. It's that simple," Harper said Monday at the Halifax Armoury, joined by Defence Minister Peter MacKay. "Otherwise, you forfeit your right to be a player. You're the one chattering on the sideline that everyone smiles at, but no one listens to."

Much of what was announced on Monday has been revealed before by the government.

"The newest thing about this announcement is that it is a long-term plan," Harper said when asked by a reporter.

Harper said this strategy will focus on replacing some of the military's core equipment fleets, including destroyers, frigates and different types of aircraft that will end their operational life over the next 20 years.

The plan will also seek to boost the strength of the regular Forces from 65,000 to 70,000 and the reserves from 24,000 to 30,000.

"Renewal of the Canadian Forces is the most pressing priority," Harper said, adding the average age in the military is rising.

Harper said the plan will also improve surveillance of land and coastal borders, bolster support for civilian authority in the event of natural disasters, and provide security to major national events like the 2010 Olympics.

Harper said having a long-term plan for stable funding will create jobs and opportunities for tens of thousands of Canadians who work in the defence industry and communities with military bases.

I've flipped through Conservative plan. It's basically a rehash of what was announced before. The plan does nothing to address other equipment and infrastructure concerns, nor does it properly address the personnel shortage. The only thing new is more long term funding, but it only starts in fiscal year 2011-2012, which is no good to us now. We need more funding now.

Just saw this today. 65 really doesn't seem to be enough if you ask me considering the amount that are in training and maintenance. Maybe to intercept airliners but in the event that an international crisis hits somewhere that really doesn't leave alot of attrition room, even if we lose some to accidents. I wonder if these may be focused more on air to air engagements while leaving the air to ground missions to a possible UAV type platform?

Canada to buy fewer F-35 fighters than thought

Mon May 12, 2008 3:59pm EDT

OTTAWA, May 12 (Reuters) - The Canadian government said on Monday it would buy 65 new F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, a figure lower than the 80 planes that had widely circulated in the media.

"One of the reasons there will be fewer of the new fighters is we anticipate the new fighters will have significantly greater capacity than existing fighters," Prime Minister Stephen Harper told a news conference.

He was speaking in Nova Scotia as he unveiled what he called the Canada First Defence Strategy, involving C$30 billion ($30 billion) in projected new military spending for the next 20 years.

The F-35s will replace Canada's CF-18s, which are scheduled to reach the end of their working lives in 2017-20. Canada bought 138 of them in the 1980s and now has 98, 80 of which are being refurbished.

Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) will make the F-35s. The Joint Strike Fighter program is being funded by the United States, Canada and seven other countries.

($1=$1.00 Canadian (Reporting by Randall Palmer and David Ljunggren; Editing by Peter Galloway)

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndu ... 5420080512

It is widely expected by many that Canada would purchase the F-35, but in reality, there has been no official decision on replacing the CF-18's. Canada only provided money to the project development in order to secure a place for Canadian industry in its manufacture, and as investment.