I was fired from my first job in the industry a few weeks ago.
I won't go into details in attempt to defend my position, as it is in my past now. I was in my probation period though, so it was very easy for the company to give me the boot. There was no one reason in particular for my dismissal, but rather office politics, and I wasn't really "fitting in at the company". I did not however do anything unsafe, or damage anything. I loved my job, and really tried hard, but I guess these things sometimes happen.
However, as I now look for another job, I would love to put this all behind me. The problem is, how do I proceed from here?
What should I say at interviews? What should I put on the resume?
I was only at the company for a very short time.
It's hard enough to find your first break in aviation, and I feel as though this whole experience will certainly hurt my career. I was lucky to get on with a reputable charter company in the first place, and I feel it will be even harder now to find another job.
Of course it was an upsetting experience, but I am on relatively good terms still with the management, and there is no bitterness or resentment on either side. I will never bad mouth the company, and still have good things to say about them as an employer.
Suggestions? Please help.
How damaging is this to my career?
Fired...
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Disposition
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sounds like you have a good attitude.
Just be honest at your next interview and always speak well of your former co-workers/employer. If you've left all of your previous jobs because the people there were 'jerks' . . . well, everyone figures out fast who the real jerk was. good luck with the job hunt! The north has some possibilities if you're willing to re-locate.
Just be honest at your next interview and always speak well of your former co-workers/employer. If you've left all of your previous jobs because the people there were 'jerks' . . . well, everyone figures out fast who the real jerk was. good luck with the job hunt! The north has some possibilities if you're willing to re-locate.
I disagree.
If you only worked at the job a short time, then all you gained if you mention it at another employer is a reson for him to scrutinize you more.
All 250 Hour wonders are the same, except now comes Mr 250 Hr number 1001 ...who already has a mark against him?
Start fresh, don't mention the last sompany, and you'll be viewed with the same regard as every other possible applicant.
I guess what I am trying to say is: a 250 Hr pilot is a 250 Hr pilot is a 250 Hr pilot....6 months of ramp time make you no different from the next applicant: TYPE ratings, PPCs and hours do.
So, start fresh, and get ur chin up, there are hundreds of other possibilities.
.80
If you only worked at the job a short time, then all you gained if you mention it at another employer is a reson for him to scrutinize you more.
All 250 Hour wonders are the same, except now comes Mr 250 Hr number 1001 ...who already has a mark against him?
Start fresh, don't mention the last sompany, and you'll be viewed with the same regard as every other possible applicant.
I guess what I am trying to say is: a 250 Hr pilot is a 250 Hr pilot is a 250 Hr pilot....6 months of ramp time make you no different from the next applicant: TYPE ratings, PPCs and hours do.
So, start fresh, and get ur chin up, there are hundreds of other possibilities.
.80
Just callin it like it is.
I agree with .80. Dont mention your previous employer in your next interview. But you can use the experience you gained in your first job to help you in your next. This could give you an edge on your co-workers, who have never worked in the industry. A good way of turning a negative into a positive. Go NORTH and good luck!!! Bloggs
Disposition:
Although the "What they don't know can't hurt them" concept makes sense, sometimes it is inevitable. While your resume will state your employment history, other airlines will require you to fill out a full-fledge application form. In there they WILL find your previous employment info.
Nothing stopping the reader of your resume or application from contacting your recent employer.
Although what Joebloggs and .80@410 say makes perfect sense, you might also want to consider the "Straight Forward" method.
You are probably correct in feeling that things might get tougher from here on, but still it is NOT the end of the world.
Resume:
Most smaller companies usually do not have formal application forms, and base their sorting from your resume. While I am not sure exactly what you did to deserve getting released, but you can always explain sincerely with an attachment letter to your resume. I would NOT suggest including the explanation in your Cover Letter though. A sincere explanation such as:
-------------------------------------------
Dear Sir/Madam:
First of all, thank you for taking your time to examine my resume. I would like to take this opportunity to explain my experience with my recent employer, Joe Air.
Although I was reluctant to do so at first, but I feel I should deal with this shame with honesty. I am embarrassed to inform you that I was dismissed from my employment with Joe Air.
During my initial aircraft training on their King Air, my Circling Procedure was quite weak, and I was falling behind on the SOP. Capt. Moe, Chief Pilot from Joe Air, felt that I will need a little longer time in training than what they can accommodate, for they have contract requirements and dead-line that needed to be met. Therefore, someone with more experience was found.
I recognize my weaknesses, and understood that as a 250-hour pilot, I have much to learn. Since then, I have seek professional help to improve my weaknesses. I have since logged 8 more Circling Approaches with a flight instructor at XYZ Flight Centre in a Seneca II, and spent countless hours practicing the King Air SOP with a friend of mine that is a King Air Captain at ABC Airways.
I also admit that I was not familiar with the magnitude of the skill required, and I probably did not take my initial training at Joe Air serious enough.
I understand now the level of discipline and competency required to succeed. I hereby request for a chance to prove to you that I have learned my lesson, and I will NOT let anyone, especially myself, down again.
If you wish to find out more details, Capt. Moe at Joe Air can be contacted at (888) 888-8888.
------------------------------------------------
Contact your recent employer where you were fired from, and discuss with them your intention. Ask them if they agree with your explanation letter, and see how they feel about you.
Application:
If the airline that you are attempting to apply to requires you to fill out a formal application form, they usually have an Employment section that requires you to state your previous employers and reason for leaving.
While on a resume you might get away with not mentioning, but I strongly recommend that you DO NOT lie on an employment application form. A similar explanation note can be attached to the application as well. They will usually be read.
I guess my feeling is this:
By including an explanation letter, you are giving them no choice but to listen to your explanation, FIRST! Then at least your chance to explain has been accepted.
If you try to hide it, and if it was ever found out, keeping in mind how small the aviation industry is, your chance to explain your way out then would probably be pretty slim. Plus, they can take disciplinary actions even if they found way AFTER they hired you.
If you were fired from a job, obviously you did something wrong. Now the whole point is proving that you HAVE learned something through this dramatic experience. We are only human, and human make mistakes.
If you bend the truth, it will be taken as a strong indication that you haven't learned enough from it. And that's NOT a good sign.
Although it is easy to change ones attitude, it is extremely difficult to change ones philosophy.
Again, my thoughts are just another picture for you to think about. Only YOU would know the best which way is the most suitable for your scenerio.
Good luck.
Although the "What they don't know can't hurt them" concept makes sense, sometimes it is inevitable. While your resume will state your employment history, other airlines will require you to fill out a full-fledge application form. In there they WILL find your previous employment info.
Nothing stopping the reader of your resume or application from contacting your recent employer.
Although what Joebloggs and .80@410 say makes perfect sense, you might also want to consider the "Straight Forward" method.
You are probably correct in feeling that things might get tougher from here on, but still it is NOT the end of the world.
Resume:
Most smaller companies usually do not have formal application forms, and base their sorting from your resume. While I am not sure exactly what you did to deserve getting released, but you can always explain sincerely with an attachment letter to your resume. I would NOT suggest including the explanation in your Cover Letter though. A sincere explanation such as:
-------------------------------------------
Dear Sir/Madam:
First of all, thank you for taking your time to examine my resume. I would like to take this opportunity to explain my experience with my recent employer, Joe Air.
Although I was reluctant to do so at first, but I feel I should deal with this shame with honesty. I am embarrassed to inform you that I was dismissed from my employment with Joe Air.
During my initial aircraft training on their King Air, my Circling Procedure was quite weak, and I was falling behind on the SOP. Capt. Moe, Chief Pilot from Joe Air, felt that I will need a little longer time in training than what they can accommodate, for they have contract requirements and dead-line that needed to be met. Therefore, someone with more experience was found.
I recognize my weaknesses, and understood that as a 250-hour pilot, I have much to learn. Since then, I have seek professional help to improve my weaknesses. I have since logged 8 more Circling Approaches with a flight instructor at XYZ Flight Centre in a Seneca II, and spent countless hours practicing the King Air SOP with a friend of mine that is a King Air Captain at ABC Airways.
I also admit that I was not familiar with the magnitude of the skill required, and I probably did not take my initial training at Joe Air serious enough.
I understand now the level of discipline and competency required to succeed. I hereby request for a chance to prove to you that I have learned my lesson, and I will NOT let anyone, especially myself, down again.
If you wish to find out more details, Capt. Moe at Joe Air can be contacted at (888) 888-8888.
------------------------------------------------
Contact your recent employer where you were fired from, and discuss with them your intention. Ask them if they agree with your explanation letter, and see how they feel about you.
Application:
If the airline that you are attempting to apply to requires you to fill out a formal application form, they usually have an Employment section that requires you to state your previous employers and reason for leaving.
While on a resume you might get away with not mentioning, but I strongly recommend that you DO NOT lie on an employment application form. A similar explanation note can be attached to the application as well. They will usually be read.
I guess my feeling is this:
By including an explanation letter, you are giving them no choice but to listen to your explanation, FIRST! Then at least your chance to explain has been accepted.
If you try to hide it, and if it was ever found out, keeping in mind how small the aviation industry is, your chance to explain your way out then would probably be pretty slim. Plus, they can take disciplinary actions even if they found way AFTER they hired you.
If you were fired from a job, obviously you did something wrong. Now the whole point is proving that you HAVE learned something through this dramatic experience. We are only human, and human make mistakes.
If you bend the truth, it will be taken as a strong indication that you haven't learned enough from it. And that's NOT a good sign.
Although it is easy to change ones attitude, it is extremely difficult to change ones philosophy.
Again, my thoughts are just another picture for you to think about. Only YOU would know the best which way is the most suitable for your scenerio.
Good luck.
Charlie
Hmmm, I would always tell the truth. Don't speak bad of your previous employer. The people doing your interviews have most likely been around for awhile and know what the industry is like. They probably could find out your past easily as well. Nothing turned me off more then an applicant bitching about previous companies..even if they had every right to bitch. Just hold your head up and good things will happen!!
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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Every situation is different, if someone applied to me for a job and admitted they were fired from , say Rxx I would put that down as a plus on the applicants side.
One thing you must never do is lie about anything in aviation, if for no other reason than you will eventually be found out.
Cat
One thing you must never do is lie about anything in aviation, if for no other reason than you will eventually be found out.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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pistonbroke
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A 3 month probation period is standard for most companies.Within this time frame the employer can let anyone go without cause or reason.
If it was within 3 months I dont think you were fired.The job just never worked out for both parties.
Did you get a seperation slip that said you were fired?
If it was within 3 months I dont think you were fired.The job just never worked out for both parties.
Did you get a seperation slip that said you were fired?
Agree with honesty being the best policy in this particular situation. The last thing you want to do is start out a new opportunity based on less than the truth. Remember, if you bagged a few hours with this company, or received any type training that you are using on your resume, those doing the hiring are going to want to know where that came from, will start digging, and if you're evasive, that will cast you in a bad light. 
You say you're still on good terms with management in this company, just give them a call and find out for yourself what they're likely to have to say about you. Alternatively, give them a call acting as Chief Pilot from Joe Blow airlines and ask for a reference for yourself: That way you'll know for sure what they're likely to say!
You say you're still on good terms with management in this company, just give them a call and find out for yourself what they're likely to have to say about you. Alternatively, give them a call acting as Chief Pilot from Joe Blow airlines and ask for a reference for yourself: That way you'll know for sure what they're likely to say!
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
Agree with honesty being the best policy in this particular situation. The last thing you want to do is start out a new opportunity based on less than the truth. Remember, if you bagged a few hours with this company, or received any type training that you are using on your resume, those doing the hiring are going to want to know where that came from, will start digging, and if you're evasive, that will cast you in a bad light.
You say you're still on good terms with management in this company, just give them a call and find out for yourself what they're likely to have to say about you. Alternatively, give them a call acting as Chief Pilot from Joe Blow airlines and ask for a reference for yourself: That way you'll know for sure what they're likely to say!
You say you're still on good terms with management in this company, just give them a call and find out for yourself what they're likely to have to say about you. Alternatively, give them a call acting as Chief Pilot from Joe Blow airlines and ask for a reference for yourself: That way you'll know for sure what they're likely to say!
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
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Disposition
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- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:26 pm
- Location: yyc & ontario
First of all, my thanks to everyone who has posted their thoughts and ideas. I have carefully read and considered everything that has been posted.
There seems to be two diametrically opposed views amongst those who have posted. I have, of course, considered removing my experience from my resume, since it was such a short time that I was with the company. However, I don’t necessarily feel as though this would be the best way to proceed. As many have pointed out, since the industry is so small in Canada, the truth will eventually be discovered. Further, I don’t know if I want to start at a new company with a secret; I like to consider myself as an honest person.
Hopefully potential employers will be able to see that even though I did make a mistake in the beginning, I learned from my experience, and still have potential to be a valued, responsible employee.
I appreciate the fact that (as .80 and others have pointed out) a termination on my record will appear as a strike or a mark against me, but as I said, I don’t want to live with the guilt of lying on an application or during an interview. Further, the flight time is in plain black ink in my logbook.
pistonbroke – As you pointed out, my employment ended within my probation period. Either way, as Charlie said, since I was fired – I probably did something wrong.
Once again, I thank everyone for their posts. I will definitely save this thread on my hard drive for future reference. Of course the experience was very upsetting, but I will bite the bullet, and hopefully everything will turn out for the best. I will let everyone know what ends up happening.
Thanks!
GB
There seems to be two diametrically opposed views amongst those who have posted. I have, of course, considered removing my experience from my resume, since it was such a short time that I was with the company. However, I don’t necessarily feel as though this would be the best way to proceed. As many have pointed out, since the industry is so small in Canada, the truth will eventually be discovered. Further, I don’t know if I want to start at a new company with a secret; I like to consider myself as an honest person.
Hopefully potential employers will be able to see that even though I did make a mistake in the beginning, I learned from my experience, and still have potential to be a valued, responsible employee.
I appreciate the fact that (as .80 and others have pointed out) a termination on my record will appear as a strike or a mark against me, but as I said, I don’t want to live with the guilt of lying on an application or during an interview. Further, the flight time is in plain black ink in my logbook.
pistonbroke – As you pointed out, my employment ended within my probation period. Either way, as Charlie said, since I was fired – I probably did something wrong.
Once again, I thank everyone for their posts. I will definitely save this thread on my hard drive for future reference. Of course the experience was very upsetting, but I will bite the bullet, and hopefully everything will turn out for the best. I will let everyone know what ends up happening.
Thanks!
GB
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southbound
- Rank 2
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Disposition,
remember on thing ok. All you have is your integrity at the end of the day. Nothing else matters. Any smart CP with any experience will affirm the personality conflicts and political BS runs rampant. Don't seat the small stuff. In ten yrs you'll look back and smile.
remember on thing ok. All you have is your integrity at the end of the day. Nothing else matters. Any smart CP with any experience will affirm the personality conflicts and political BS runs rampant. Don't seat the small stuff. In ten yrs you'll look back and smile.
Disposition ------- if your attitude while employed with your former company was anything like what you have stated so far, then "attitude" obviously wasn't the reason you were let go. My suggestions are these and in this order. You obviously have been given a record of employment and the reason for the termination will be stated on there for starters. You state that you are still on good terms with management. If that is correct, then ask them what they will be stating to a prospective employer should they call and ask. At that point you may be surprised perhaps by their answer......and maybe not, but you will know EXACTLY where you stand. Take whatever advice you wish, but personally I would lie about NOTHING. State where you were employed and briefly why you were let go. BY the same token "volunteer" NOTHING either while in an interview. Answer the questions you are asked and leave it there! Speak well of your former employer and remember this.........when people are guilty of something, they usuually try to "talk you to death"......so keep the explanation short and "to the point" .
Accumulate a bunch of circumstances like this on your resume over the course of your career and you got problems. With you just starting out in the business, I wouldn't be too concerned about it stunting your advancement at all. You'll run into lots in this business that can tell the same story and a lot worse, so don't "sweat it right now". I've hired and fired myself and based on your stated attitude so far, I'd give you a real hard look if I needed someone......cause "attitude" is what this business is all about.....and don't EVER loose it because it'll come in handy many times on a flight deck.
Accumulate a bunch of circumstances like this on your resume over the course of your career and you got problems. With you just starting out in the business, I wouldn't be too concerned about it stunting your advancement at all. You'll run into lots in this business that can tell the same story and a lot worse, so don't "sweat it right now". I've hired and fired myself and based on your stated attitude so far, I'd give you a real hard look if I needed someone......cause "attitude" is what this business is all about.....and don't EVER loose it because it'll come in handy many times on a flight deck.
One other thing to bear in mind....
This may vary from province to province, but as far as I know, previous employers are constrained by law from giving bad references. There are many shades of gray within this that folks can hide behind...questions that they choose not to answer can communicate very clearly.
This may vary from province to province, but as far as I know, previous employers are constrained by law from giving bad references. There are many shades of gray within this that folks can hide behind...questions that they choose not to answer can communicate very clearly.
Please don't tell my mother that I work in the Oilpatch...she still thinks that I'm the piano player at a whorehouse.
I wouldn't volunteer the information if it isn't asked about. Don't leave it off your resume, but let the potential employer ask you why your term at the past employer was less than 3 months - if you just weren't what they were looking for, that's a fair thing to discuss in an interview - but it may be hard to get the interview if you pitch yourself as someone who was recently dismissed from their job.
I've found that the hardest part of the process is getting the interview - if you get it, you'll have lots of opportunity to discuss the nature of your dismissal if they ask.
And remember - sometimes how someone handles an adverse situation can show strength of character, and a solid attitude...
Pugster
I've found that the hardest part of the process is getting the interview - if you get it, you'll have lots of opportunity to discuss the nature of your dismissal if they ask.
And remember - sometimes how someone handles an adverse situation can show strength of character, and a solid attitude...
Pugster
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Here's my $0.02.
Sure, say you worked there. As you said, it's in your log book- so no getting around that.
When asked, "Why were you let go?" Truth it up.
"I wish I knew. I didn't break any SOP's or CARs. I thought it was a good place to work, and in my short time there, I learned a lot, and liked everyone there. I guess employers have their reasons, but that's life. I'm sure working for you will be good too. "
Like others have said, don't bad-mouth them. I've blown MANY interviews because of stating my hatred for previous stupid abusive employers. Honesty being my excuse. Now that I'm older, and it's more in the past, I don't care. I can omit the truth. Half of my old jerk bosses have had physical complications because of their self imposed idiocy anyways, and karma has bitten them in the ass.
Chin up, and keep the positive attitude! It works for me.
-istp
Sure, say you worked there. As you said, it's in your log book- so no getting around that.
When asked, "Why were you let go?" Truth it up.
"I wish I knew. I didn't break any SOP's or CARs. I thought it was a good place to work, and in my short time there, I learned a lot, and liked everyone there. I guess employers have their reasons, but that's life. I'm sure working for you will be good too. "
Like others have said, don't bad-mouth them. I've blown MANY interviews because of stating my hatred for previous stupid abusive employers. Honesty being my excuse. Now that I'm older, and it's more in the past, I don't care. I can omit the truth. Half of my old jerk bosses have had physical complications because of their self imposed idiocy anyways, and karma has bitten them in the ass.
Chin up, and keep the positive attitude! It works for me.
-istp
Hmmm.. YYC and Ontario as location, recently fired... was the company's initials AS per chance? If so - let it go. I'd venture to say 20% of the employees there get fired and the people within this industry that matter recognize the fact that Air Survivor operates in it's own little close-minded world.
From my personal experience the key is what sort of reference would the management give if they were called up. As I am sure you know the industry is like a family. Some brothers fight but and some don't but all respect eachother to some degree. There are so many people that get let go from so many jobs in this industry that it isn't even funny. Keep in touch with old management. No matter what you gained in the form of experience....having a good contact is key in the "who you know not what you know world we live." Go North bud...best time of your life And those types of operators don't dabble in the political BS as much.
Cheers
And those types of operators don't dabble in the political BS as much.Cheers
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Mitch Cronin
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Uhhh... pilotbc69... Any chance you could post a larger version of that pic below your name? I'm sure I once had a bike just like that, and I'd like to see it better.... 
(scuse me for the small distraction here Disposition... all these guys that tell you to be honest, when asked, are right on the money)
(scuse me for the small distraction here Disposition... all these guys that tell you to be honest, when asked, are right on the money)
Aviation Is a small world Be Honest, use tact and try and fix whatever the problem was. I have found that the first serious job is always hard. You might have some flying club ideas about weather that are not valid in a charter operation or maybe you consider the cross wind limitation a rule instead of a guide etc. Be honest be upfront and if an outfit doen't want you maybe you don't want to work for them. Keep trying.
I wish I could spell
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TOGA Descent
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Disposition. If you explain it during your next interview, as you first explained it in this forum, you will have a successfull interview. Reputable employers know the game, and are well aware of the antics of others. Just be honest, and things will be fine. Best of luck to you.
Rookie Airbus Crew… "What's it doing now?"
Veteran Airbus Crew… "It's doing it again!"
Veteran Airbus Crew… "It's doing it again!"
