CanJet Hiring German Pilots?

[Justwannafly]

I heard a rumour that Canjet wants to hire German pilots & pay them different wages than the Canadian Pilots....The Union is understandably upset about this....Has anyone else heard about this?

It doesn't seem to make sense to me...

[Troubleshot]

probably going to run some of their -800's in germany in the off charter season...my guess.

[green bastard]

Thank god the pilots have some say and ALPA is there for support. Still a clown show as long as the the DFO is on the property.

[C-MNOP]

Would you really be surprised if they did? Over and over it has been proven that the employees are of no concern when it comes to running this business. The people that are working at Canjet have seen it before and will see it again. Its a cycle of bust and bust. It shouldnt be a surprise at all.

[invertedattitude]

Wow an airline is trying to maximize its profitability during the toughest ecnomical situation the airline industry has ever seen. HOW DARE THEY!

[Donald]

Wow an airline is trying to maximize its profitability during the toughest ecnomical situation the airline industry has ever seen. HOW DARE THEY!

Nothing like maximizing your profit by paying your jet capt's 66K to start, hit them with a bond, promise them time off then take it away....

This is second-hand info....am I wrong? (I hope so)

[C-MNOP]

IA-

Im not sure what business school you attended but paying employees more money to do the same work is not economical. AND....... paying pilots from other countries to do the work is unethical. Im sure when it comes to you losing your job so that your company can be more PROFITABLE you might have other opinions.

Donald-

That is only the beginning. Low pay and lower terms and conditions for the employees are the norm.

[invertedattitude]

IA-

Im not sure what business school you attended but paying employees more money to do the same work is not economical. AND....... paying pilots from other countries to do the work is unethical. Im sure when it comes to you losing your job so that your company can be more PROFITABLE you might have other opinions.

Ok, well I was under the belief these pilots were being paid less than the present ones. Why in gods name would they deliberately hire more expensive labour? For what possible gain? If their plans are to operate overseas during the downtime, there are plenty of 737 classic and NG rated pilots over there which would require minimum time to bring up to speed.

I apologize if they are actually paying them more than the rest of the CanJet pilots.

However, we do live in a global society and a global workforce now. How do you think the local pilots at Emirates, or Etihad feel? What about Iberian? This is hardly something new, and it's not isolated to CanJet. If CanJet does have plans to operate overseas, then hiring pilots who are more familiar with the area and language would be a responsible thing don't you think?

[complexintentions]

How do you think the local pilots at Emirates, or Etihad feel?

Um, well let's see. The local pilots at Emirates and Etihad are paid a lot more than the expats for the same job. Their jobs are in no jeopardy due to "foreigners" taking them. Most were trained from scratch as cadets at company expense. So I'm guessing they're doing ok.

The comparison to CanJet is completely, utterly invalid. Well, except maybe for greedy little managers. But the reason for expat pilots in the Middle East has absolutely no relation to the use of them in Canada. There simply aren't enough Emirati pilots, and no industry to supply them. Hell there aren't even enough expat pilots these days! But that's another topic.

[Norfolk]

I do love Mr. Complex. that's a fact!

[invertedattitude]

How do you think the local pilots at Emirates, or Etihad feel?

Um, well let's see. The local pilots at Emirates and Etihad are paid a lot more than the expats for the same job. Their jobs are in no jeopardy due to "foreigners" taking them. Most were trained from scratch as cadets at company expense. So I'm guessing they're doing ok.

The comparison to CanJet is completely, utterly invalid. Well, except maybe for greedy little managers. But the reason for expat pilots in the Middle East has absolutely no relation to the use of them in Canada. There simply aren't enough Emirati pilots, and no industry to supply them. Hell there aren't even enough expat pilots these days! But that's another topic.

Alright, so if CanJet needs or wants some European trained pilots for operations overseas, and the market demand for such pilots is X amount of dollars, what should CanJet have done?

I'm not defending the company, perhaps it all is just a dirty underhanded project, but it would seem foolish for a company with a history of trying to save money, spending more money for no possible gain.

[C-MNOP]

deleted

[Stick-Shaker]

Canjet hiring EU based pilots is probably just rumour. But if it is something they are looking into then it doesn't fit any model I am familar with. Sunwing or Skyservice does not employ foreign pilots when their respective fins are flying out of the UK, or Europe? If this is a game that Rowe wants to play then his only intent is continue to employ they core CJ'ers (15 or so pilots) year round and then put the rest of the flying out to the lowest bidder. I hope this is just rumour, because if this is allowed to happen, again KR will have stooped to a new low.

[Justwannafly]

IA-

Im not sure what business school you attended but paying employees more money to do the same work is not economical.

I have a Degree with a minor in business (not that that means I know anything...just that I have a piece of paper) BUT studys have shown in all fields of work that happy employees are more productive employees & companies with happy employees prosper more then those with unhappy workers.

[disco]

Inverted...

With all due respect, if an airline cannot afford to pay its employees what they are worth, then it should close the doors and go the F&*K away.. .seriously.

I have seen the data. Airlines are suffering due to their MAJOR cost factors: fuel, aircraft acquisition and maintenance. It is not labor costs crushing the airlines my friend. Just check with all of the highly profitable airlines (even discount ones such as SouthWest) out there who are paying their pilots properly.

You have bought into the concept they would love us all to believe...."labor is breaking us". Simply not the case. If so, please do us all a favor and shutdown/stay out of the business if you cannot afford to do it right.

[Four1oh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but until the price of fuel skyrocketed, wasn't the #1 cost of doing business employee wages, and it's now #2?

[disco]

Four1Oh,

No sir. Based upon well -informed presentations, built from well researched data I have seen at conferences by bean counter types, labour is not one of the top 3 or 4 segments of the pie. Mgmt spend a great deal of time and effort trying to convince us otherwise. The data says phooey.

This is important. As pilots, I believe we need to collectively understand this dynamic so that we will cease this unhealthy practice of selling ourselves short to "save the airline" or to "build this startup airline" or make sure my airline can make more money than your airline.

We are not the the make it or break for the airline. Look at some real examples out there of airlines (even low-yield discount places) who are paying their pilots properly while making a tidy profit.

If I am not mistaken, you Fou1Oh may work at one of them.

[unregistered]

Inverted...

With all due respect, if an airline cannot afford to pay its employees what they are worth, then it should close the doors and go the F&*K away.. .seriously.

With all due respect, if an airline cannot afford to pay its employees what they are worth, then they should go and work elsewhere.

[tonysoprano]

The scary part is that the traditional way a pilot gets paid is slowly but surely being repaced by complicated, profit based schemes. That is, as long as the company makes money, the system works. When it doesn't, pilots will have their second thoughts. The formula set out decades ago by the flag carrier unions is a tried and true way of pilot income. The negotiated salary may go up or down at times but is always in the ballpark. The only risk involved is the ability to negotiate that salary. Collectively, we must give some thought to what we think we are worth and set that as a minimum for the bad times. Anything less is unacceptable.

[DAVE THE RAVE]

Hopefully they will bring over some of their beer. As Canadians we are the first to dump on American beer. Canadian beer is like American beer when it comes to German beer.

[flyin' fish]

Hopefully they will bring over some of their beer. As Canadians we are the first to dump on American beer. Canadian beer is like American beer when it comes to German beer.

..............Keith's being the exception.

[Stick-Shaker]

Heard you ratified your contract. Congrats. Word is 85K for a direct entry captain. Excellent work and congrats to those on your MEC...on par with Sunwing now.

Just to be the devils advocate, now that IMP's cost have risen (obviously fuel and now wages), will it be more efficient for KR to base crews in YYZ rather than commute them on AC back and forth from YHZ. The wages are the same as Sunwing, so the ablility to attract pilots in YYZ may be there. Remember this is KR.

[Four1oh]

Four1Oh,

No sir. Based upon well -informed presentations, built from well researched data I have seen at conferences by bean counter types, labour is not one of the top 3 or 4 segments of the pie. Mgmt spend a great deal of time and effort trying to convince us otherwise. The data says phooey.

This is important. As pilots, I believe we need to collectively understand this dynamic so that we will cease this unhealthy practice of selling ourselves short to "save the airline" or to "build this startup airline" or make sure my airline can make more money than your airline.

We are not the the make it or break for the airline. Look at some real examples out there of airlines (even low-yield discount places) who are paying their pilots properly while making a tidy profit.

If I am not mistaken, you Fou1Oh may work at one of them.

Interesting points, something to think about and watch out for. And yes, I feel privileged to be part of the team I work with.

The scary part is that the traditional way a pilot gets paid is slowly but surely being repaced by complicated, profit based schemes. That is, as long as the company makes money, the system works. When it doesn't, pilots will have their second thoughts. The formula set out decades ago by the flag carrier unions is a tried and true way of pilot income. The negotiated salary may go up or down at times but is always in the ballpark. The only risk involved is the ability to negotiate that salary. Collectively, we must give some thought to what we think we are worth and set that as a minimum for the bad times. Anything less is unacceptable.

Tony, I need to correct you, if I may, the formula, as you say, does work when times are good, but you are missing something. The only way our system works is by empowering employees to speak out when things need improving. That's the secret. So, when times are bad, the employees, because they are empowered to care about the direction their company is taking, sing out loud and force management to pay attention to the issues. We hold our management accountable every day at WJ. They know it and we know it. That's the beauty of it. Yes, our bigwigs make a lot of money, but we make sure they're working for it, each and every day. They expect us to perform our job, and we expect them to perform theirs. The simplicity of it all is really refreshing, actually. That's what the outsiders either don't appreciate or don't understand. Hope that made sense, it's been a long day.

[tonysoprano]

Yes it does make sense Four1oh. In fact at AC, we don't just hold management accountable, we also hold our union accountable. The union has gone to great lenghts in getting input from the pilot group on what to do in '09. Now it's up to them and management to deliver. We all know we won't get it all back but it has to at least come close (in the ballpark). Also, and please don't take this size thing the wrong way, but I think a smaller group like yours has a better chance of keeping costs in line and therefore keeping management accountable is an easier task, hence no need for a union. This is particularly true when times are good and the company continues to grow. Our situation is a little different. As for the German pilot rumors, just a quick question. Do these guys hold Canadian licences? They'll need one to fly a Canadian registered airplane I think....

[Four1oh]

To me, it doesn't look like AC management IS being held accountable by employees, except with a strike looming in the not too distant future. So good on you guys if you are, I just didn't think it was happening.