Lets turn off the GPS
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Lets turn off the GPS
Wonder what would happen if we turned the GPS off, and tossed that new pilot an LE and a sectional? "You can use the ADF, VOR, or you can map read......." I think it'd be an eye opener. Thoughts?
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS
First thought... Not an issue.
I mean what the FRIG do you think I have INS for?
But if you want me to play along, I'll bite.
So I'm a new low time GA monkey and my GPS takes a dump? Here's what I'm thinking "Gee, why didn't I take that recruiter up on his offer. What's 7 years post wings?"
I mean what the FRIG do you think I have INS for?
But if you want me to play along, I'll bite.
So I'm a new low time GA monkey and my GPS takes a dump? Here's what I'm thinking "Gee, why didn't I take that recruiter up on his offer. What's 7 years post wings?"
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
Yes, those skills are extremely important. But you can't deny that the GPS is a great aid."You can use the ADF, VOR, or you can map read......."
I ran into this older fellow who told me that he never did a racetrack in his 30,000+ hours, until he used a Garmin 430. It all changed.....
With the tin cans I fly, the VNC is all I got. Sometimes I wish I could get my hands on a 196 because it can get annoying when you have one hand on the stick & the other with an E6B, while reading the vnc on my lap.
Maybe it's just me?
Asking a pilot about what he thinks of Transport Canada, is like asking a fire hydrant what does he think about dogs.
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
my instructor didn't let me turn the GPS (196) in the 172 on till the flight after my private flight test. I prefer the GPS of course but i can sure as hell map read (even at 20 feet off the deck like i had to prove the other day)
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
I tell all my students that they would be insane
not to have a GPS for x/c.
However, every time you get a piece of new
equipment, you have to learn to deal with
it's failure.
With GPS, it's really, really simple to deal
with it's failure.
After you've levelled off, and pushed on
the rudder pedals so that the "bearing to"
and "track to" numbers are the same ...
Write down your heading, and your gps ETA.
If the GPS dies, HOLD THE HEADING and
LOOK DOWN AT THE ETA.
This really isn't very complicated. All navigation
is about heading and time. Doesn't really
matter what the underlying technology is.
not to have a GPS for x/c.
However, every time you get a piece of new
equipment, you have to learn to deal with
it's failure.
With GPS, it's really, really simple to deal
with it's failure.
After you've levelled off, and pushed on
the rudder pedals so that the "bearing to"
and "track to" numbers are the same ...
Write down your heading, and your gps ETA.
If the GPS dies, HOLD THE HEADING and
LOOK DOWN AT THE ETA.
This really isn't very complicated. All navigation
is about heading and time. Doesn't really
matter what the underlying technology is.
- seniorpumpkin
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS
That's damn good advice Hedley! It's funny how sometimes the most basic things are overlooked.
I didn't use a GPS for any of my initial 200 hours. I'm glad I didn't, I still feel confident in my ability to map-read and also navigate by ADF/VOR. I think these are really essential skills to have and also skills that you can easily forget over time. Map reading down south where there are roads and towns is one thing, but for all you <200 types, trying to follow the map in the north will likely take everything you've got!
That being said, when I actually started to get paid to fly, I was a little behind on the use of a GPS, which is all anybody ever really uses on a regular basis. I was actually kind of relieved when the guys sitting next to me would turn it off and see if I could still get us home.
Anyways, from now on I will be writing down my GPS track and ETA when I level off, thanks Hedley!
I didn't use a GPS for any of my initial 200 hours. I'm glad I didn't, I still feel confident in my ability to map-read and also navigate by ADF/VOR. I think these are really essential skills to have and also skills that you can easily forget over time. Map reading down south where there are roads and towns is one thing, but for all you <200 types, trying to follow the map in the north will likely take everything you've got!
That being said, when I actually started to get paid to fly, I was a little behind on the use of a GPS, which is all anybody ever really uses on a regular basis. I was actually kind of relieved when the guys sitting next to me would turn it off and see if I could still get us home.
Anyways, from now on I will be writing down my GPS track and ETA when I level off, thanks Hedley!
Flying airplanes is easy, you just need to PAY ATTENTION. Finding a good job on the other hand takes experience, practice, and some serious talent.
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
I think students should learn how to fly with out GPS, and should learn XC's with out GPS. Once they can prove the "old" pencil and paper method then they can move on to ADF, VOR, GPS instruments.
Mainly because I carried out my training in the cadet program at a school that had a couple 172's and the rest of the fleet was DA-20's. All the -20's had GPS ... Cessna's were "old school". I flew the 172 along with a few other guys and all the light weights flew the -20's.
Come flight test time when the GPS circuit breaker was pulled, majority of the DA-20 pilots failed their flight test. WAY to relient on technology. While us Cessna guys with the older equiptment, pencil and paper passed with flying colours. Yet flying a simple GPS is exactly that.....simple. Direct to such and such .... Distance, Speed, Time, Bearing, Track ... Too easy to convert from Penicl and Paper to GPS. But the other way around proved a significant fail rate.
Pull the circuit breakers on the GPS until they learn how to fly right.
Once I started working up north where there was just lakes and trees ... VNC's being thrown out the window becuase the detail sucked. Making use of MNR maps for fire reporting (way more detailed). My CP said I can only punch in the GPS coordinates for places I've flown to on paper. Fair Trade. Leared alot about map reading, and could recognize lakes ALOT better.
Mainly because I carried out my training in the cadet program at a school that had a couple 172's and the rest of the fleet was DA-20's. All the -20's had GPS ... Cessna's were "old school". I flew the 172 along with a few other guys and all the light weights flew the -20's.
Come flight test time when the GPS circuit breaker was pulled, majority of the DA-20 pilots failed their flight test. WAY to relient on technology. While us Cessna guys with the older equiptment, pencil and paper passed with flying colours. Yet flying a simple GPS is exactly that.....simple. Direct to such and such .... Distance, Speed, Time, Bearing, Track ... Too easy to convert from Penicl and Paper to GPS. But the other way around proved a significant fail rate.
Pull the circuit breakers on the GPS until they learn how to fly right.
Once I started working up north where there was just lakes and trees ... VNC's being thrown out the window becuase the detail sucked. Making use of MNR maps for fire reporting (way more detailed). My CP said I can only punch in the GPS coordinates for places I've flown to on paper. Fair Trade. Leared alot about map reading, and could recognize lakes ALOT better.
--Air to Ground Chemical Transfer Technician turned 4 Bar Switch Flicker and Flap Operator--
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
The Katana flies perfectly well with the GPS turned off.
In China I used to turn the G1000 PFD off and put the MFD on the unusable traffic page... We had some basic maps, not very good and very old, the moving map was somewhat essential, but I still wanted to know they could navigate back to base if the G1000 failed altogether and without incurring the wrath of the Chinese military.
I have navigated across Europe many times without radio navigation equipmant and even without a radio at all, and I am a strong believer in learning dead reckoning and map reading.
Map reading gives you better situational awareness skills.
In China I used to turn the G1000 PFD off and put the MFD on the unusable traffic page... We had some basic maps, not very good and very old, the moving map was somewhat essential, but I still wanted to know they could navigate back to base if the G1000 failed altogether and without incurring the wrath of the Chinese military.
I have navigated across Europe many times without radio navigation equipmant and even without a radio at all, and I am a strong believer in learning dead reckoning and map reading.
Map reading gives you better situational awareness skills.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS
It would depend on the type of pilot I would think. Most 'new' pilots still have ground school, nav logs, and E6Bs still fresh in their head. Some old pilots are so gadget crazed now I wonder if they would even make it to an airport. One aircraft annual I am doing right now looks like a museum for old VNCs and Flight Supp; I didn't know the Flight Supp used to be white.
When I did my commercial training we had two 172s, one with a GPS and one without. For some reason I almost always got the one without.
I use the GPS a lot now but I don't think I would miss it too much here in BC. Pilotage is pretty easy here since each valley is different and you can follow them like roads. Even going in a straight line you can pick out geographical features very easily.
Can say the same about the prairies though, but at least you can fly low and look at the road signs.
When I did my commercial training we had two 172s, one with a GPS and one without. For some reason I almost always got the one without.
I use the GPS a lot now but I don't think I would miss it too much here in BC. Pilotage is pretty easy here since each valley is different and you can follow them like roads. Even going in a straight line you can pick out geographical features very easily.
Can say the same about the prairies though, but at least you can fly low and look at the road signs.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS
Map reading is the only real safe way to navigate.
Before we left places such as Dakar for Natal I drew the track lines on the maps and put my 25 mile X marks on them.
Obviously map reading was the answer because we found Natal right on time.
Before we left places such as Dakar for Natal I drew the track lines on the maps and put my 25 mile X marks on them.
Obviously map reading was the answer because we found Natal right on time.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
do you need anything else to fly a 1600lbs tin can ?THEICEMAN wrote: With the tin cans I fly, the VNC is all I got
with a watch, a vnc and some basic maths you should be abble to go from an ocean to another, dont even need a compass or an e6b.
at least I would believe you if you would use a WAC, but it ain't the case though......
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS
Funny story, way back when, ok really not that long ago when I did my 300nm X-country from Boundry Bay to Sprinbank I was going to take a plane with two radios, a GPS, VOR, ADF. Alas due to a sang I ended up taking a plane with one radio, a sketchy ADF. Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.
Cheers,
200hr Wonder
200hr Wonder
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
Pretty sure listening to oldies on the ADF just makes a 300 that much better! Majority of my local training I was tuned into CHOK Swap Shop Radio200hr Wonder wrote: Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.
--Air to Ground Chemical Transfer Technician turned 4 Bar Switch Flicker and Flap Operator--
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
200hr Wonder wrote:Funny story, way back when, ok really not that long ago when I did my 300nm X-country from Boundry Bay to Sprinbank I was going to take a plane with two radios, a GPS, VOR, ADF. Alas due to a sang I ended up taking a plane with one radio, a sketchy ADF. Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.
I think my trip was comparable... I have a good idea which two planes you may have taken
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS
Yeah the ADF is always good for doing that. I was air commuting between the Lower Mainland, Okanagan, and East Kootenays last summer and I had the ol' ADF to make the buck 72 go a little faster. But going direct means you miss most of the towns (south of #1, north of #3). I spent a lot of time looking through the Flight Supp to find stations and it seemed they were always fuzzy or talk radio.200hr Wonder wrote:Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.
I only had a crappy GPS 95 so maps, bearing, distance, and time were a must and although I had VOR, I wasn't on airways.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
What are you talking about??? Why would I use a WAC chart to fly within 125 NM of my home airport???? Do you know what your talking about???do you need anything else to fly a 1600lbs tin can ?
with a watch, a vnc and some basic maths you should be abble to go from an ocean to another, dont even need a compass or an e6b.
at least I would believe you if you would use a WAC, but it ain't the case though......
All I use in the airplane is an E6B, watch, VNC and Weather reports/Notams.......So believe me, I know how to fly without GPS!
Maybe you didn't get the point? I was trying to say that I would like to have Garmin 196 to make my job a bit easier because sometimes it can get difficult.
Asking a pilot about what he thinks of Transport Canada, is like asking a fire hydrant what does he think about dogs.
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
I don't know if I have a point to specify
what you described is just basic skills known as cockpit organization and evaluated during the PPL flight test.
I believe that if you would consider a GPS as a relief in a 125NM radius from your base in a tin can, unless you fly in extreme SVFR or IFR-wich is marginal in a tin can-, I'm afraid you should go back to school.
in other words, I would agree with you considering the GPS a relief in a King Air or bigger at a 5 digit altitude and in VFR (using the WAC charts), otherwise in IFR you don't need a GPS either.
copy ?
flying by the GPS is the most boring flying you can ever do.
much more funny to look down and see the shadows of the tree, the sun on the lakes, color of the fields etc, all that makes VFR flying interesting.
no ?
about IFR flying without GPS, I don't have any idea about it. all I know is that a bunch of guys would get lost.
what you described is just basic skills known as cockpit organization and evaluated during the PPL flight test.
I believe that if you would consider a GPS as a relief in a 125NM radius from your base in a tin can, unless you fly in extreme SVFR or IFR-wich is marginal in a tin can-, I'm afraid you should go back to school.
in other words, I would agree with you considering the GPS a relief in a King Air or bigger at a 5 digit altitude and in VFR (using the WAC charts), otherwise in IFR you don't need a GPS either.
copy ?
flying by the GPS is the most boring flying you can ever do.
much more funny to look down and see the shadows of the tree, the sun on the lakes, color of the fields etc, all that makes VFR flying interesting.
no ?
about IFR flying without GPS, I don't have any idea about it. all I know is that a bunch of guys would get lost.
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
Three words:
Watch - Map - Ground
Military pilots aren't allowed to use any nav aids or GPS until they get their Wings. I used the GPS on the Harvard 2 to keep my taxi speed below 10 kts - that's it.
Low level navigation involved flying 500' AGL, 240 Kts G/S and arriving at each turn point within seconds of pre-calculated times.
On the mighty Buff - we use the VNC to its fullest, the 196 backs us up for Lat/Long.
Watch - Map - Ground
Military pilots aren't allowed to use any nav aids or GPS until they get their Wings. I used the GPS on the Harvard 2 to keep my taxi speed below 10 kts - that's it.
Low level navigation involved flying 500' AGL, 240 Kts G/S and arriving at each turn point within seconds of pre-calculated times.
On the mighty Buff - we use the VNC to its fullest, the 196 backs us up for Lat/Long.
Re: Lets turn off the GPS
Actually, there is 1 System's Nav flight after the BNT! (Might have changed since you went through)SAR_YQQ wrote:Three words:
Watch - Map - Ground
Military pilots aren't allowed to use any nav aids or GPS until they get their Wings. I used the GPS on the Harvard 2 to keep my taxi speed below 10 kts - that's it.
Low level navigation involved flying 500' AGL, 240 Kts G/S and arriving at each turn point within seconds of pre-calculated times.
On the mighty Buff - we use the VNC to its fullest, the 196 backs us up for Lat/Long.
AuxBatOn
Going for the deck at corner
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS
Definitely you need the ADF, anyone who thinks a GPS is better than an ADF should have their license suspended."You can use the ADF, VOR, or you can map read......."
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.