Lets turn off the GPS

[THEICEMAN]

I don't know if I have a point to specify
what you described is just basic skills known as cockpit organization and evaluated during the PPL flight test.
I believe that if you would consider a GPS as a relief in a 125NM radius from your base in a tin can, unless you fly in extreme SVFR or IFR-wich is marginal in a tin can-, I'm afraid you should go back to school.
in other words, I would agree with you considering the GPS a relief in a King Air or bigger at a 5 digit altitude and in VFR (using the WAC charts), otherwise in IFR you don't need a GPS either.
copy ?

Oh please don't tell me how to do my job! Do you have any 702 real world experience? Why do I get the feeling that I am talking to a student pilot?

The cub is a lot tighter then your average ppl cessna & it's not as easier as you think when your banking 60+ degrees to take pictures. With no side slots, it's not as simple as putting papers on the dash. The only place I can put stuff is under my legs.


Take a look inside, not much room is there?


Now, I am not talking about replacing the papers for the GPS. That's crazy talk!
But the Garmin 196 is the kind of tool that can make life easier & that you cannot deny!

Anyways...this is going nowhere!

[AuxBatOn]

I don't know if I have a point to specify
what you described is just basic skills known as cockpit organization and evaluated during the PPL flight test.
I believe that if you would consider a GPS as a relief in a 125NM radius from your base in a tin can, unless you fly in extreme SVFR or IFR-wich is marginal in a tin can-, I'm afraid you should go back to school.
in other words, I would agree with you considering the GPS a relief in a King Air or bigger at a 5 digit altitude and in VFR (using the WAC charts), otherwise in IFR you don't need a GPS either.
copy ?

Oh please don't tell me how to do my job! Do you have any 702 real world experience? Why do I get the feeling that I am talking to a student pilot?

The cub is a lot tighter then your average ppl cessna & it's not as easier as you think when your banking 60+ degrees to take pictures. With no side slots, it's not as simple as putting papers on the dash. The only place I can put stuff is under my legs.


Take a look inside, not much room is there?


Now, I am not talking about replacing the papers for the GPS. That's crazy talk!
But the Garmin 196 is the kind of tool that can make life easier & that you cannot deny!

Anyways...this is going nowhere!

Oh don't make me cry with your "lack of space" I've seen and flown significantly worse and still navigated using a map, a clock, a compass and a set of EyeBall Mk1 It doesn't take much to accomodate a sheet of paper!

Can I ask a question? Why do you feel you NEED to use your E6B in flight??

AuxBatOn

[AuxBatOn]

"You can use the ADF, VOR, or you can map read......."

Definitely you need the ADF, anyone who thinks a GPS is better than an ADF should have their license suspended.

Damn right, can't listen to AM radio with the GPS!

[Cat Driver]

Can I ask a question? Why do you feel you NEED to use your E6B in flight??

Do pilots still use an E6B?

What do they use it for?

[trey kule]

Mr. Lamar....I love the GPS. dont ever want to turn it off.

But here is something. I see poster after poster mentioning watches, maps etc. timing is half of it. Heading is the other. If you cant hold a heading , at the very least you are going to have a wobbley flight path. Surprising no. of pilots can not do it. Surprising no. dont know how to hold a heading VFR using outside reference points (ie. looking out the window..a new experience sensation to many of the new breed of pilots)

When I learned to fly in the 60's, it was referred to as ded (as in deduced) reckoning. When we followed a map it was called pilotage or something similar. Seems to have morphed a bit.

When you cruising over an ocean or the white tundra of the high arctic maps dont help all that much. You just gotta hold a heading until you can pick up an alternate navigation source (and yes cat, I know how to do a star shot..)

What most pilots need when the GPS decides to do its own thing is to relax.

[tired of the ground]

What about when you're flying in the Arctic and your DG is precessing 1deg per minute but you don't have a precession log and your compass is about as useful as a 400lb hooker.....

sun's true bearing???? 15 times something minus something...........DAMN

Astro Compass.... Ya, didn't they have one of those in a museum once....

Kill the GPS and you kill a lot of pilots.....

Maybe the new pilots should be paying more attention in groundschool and less attention to the gadgets that your fancy job can afford you.

If a student ever asked me what the gps was or how to use it..... I'd tell them that once they knew how to use a map and a watch... then they would learn the mysterious ways of the GPS.....

[E-Flyer]

Consider the knowledge base of a pilot being like a pyramid that goes on for ever. If the basics aren't taught (or if the base is not strong enough) the Pyramid will fall apart sooner or later. That fall down might be recognized as not getting that airline job, or not getting that dream job you want or what ever.

I think it's the responsibility of the flight training unit to provide a strong base up to the point that the pilot is competent to learn other systems.

If the student knows how to work VFR navigational skills, instrument skills, and situational awareness skills, the GPS and later on FMC/FMS will add on much better and will be understood much better. But if there's a bit missing in the pyramid, then some thing's will cause issues for that pilot.


In other words, I think GPS needs to be taught, but only when the instructor feels that it could be beneficial for the student. You know? sort of like how they make a judgement call for the weather being or not being beneficial to the student.

[Strega]

[quote=Funny story, way back when, ok really not that long ago when I did my 300nm X-country from Boundry Bay to Sprinbank I was going to take a plane with two radios, a GPS, VOR, ADF. Alas due to a sang I ended up taking a plane with one radio, a sketchy ADF. Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.[/quote]


Is flying from Van to Calgary with only a map somthing to be proud of these days?

[Doc]

Interesting. I must wonder if we really need to teach map reading, and basic navigational skills at all any more. It's an interesting exercise, but with most of the aircraft out there equiped with all the "bells and whistles", perhaps the basic stuff is no longer needed? Can a freshly minted instructor even read a map? Should he have to be able to? Why?
I had a really interesting conversation with this old sailor a few years back. Seems he sails from England to Halifax every year. This guys, like 80 years old. I asked him if he used a sextant, and celistral (sp, I know) nav. He said..."Hell no! I ain't that stupid! I have three GPSs!"
Really though, I think map reading (really well) is a lost art. I can remember more than one flight with my thumb constantly on the map, following my progress at almost tree top altitude, in very bad vis.
That's not to say I don't think there should be a GPS unit in every aircraft flying....there should be.

[Cat Driver]

Is flying from Van to Calgary with only a map somthing to be proud of these days?

Of course it is Strega, the system has become so dumbed down todays new pilot's really don't know jack shit beyond what their instructors parrot out to them.....It's sad really.

[just curious]

What about when you're flying in the Arctic and your DG is precessing 1deg per minute but you don't have a precession log and your compass is about as useful as a 400lb hooker.....
sun's true bearing???? 15 times something minus something...........DAMN
Astro Compass.... Ya, didn't they have one of those in a museum once....

Got the precession log, astro compass and almanac. The formula bit your missing is -WLon, unless yer in the south then it's that divided by 180.

Really though, I think map reading (really well) is a lost art. I can remember more than one flight with my thumb constantly on the map, following my progress at almost tree top altitude, in very bad vis.

Still got the thumb callus.

Three words:

Watch - Map - Ground

Just got a fantastically accurate pilot watch to replace my breitling.

I got the maps, astro, almanac in my bag to back up the 2 ADFs, 2 VORS, and the IFR GPS. Even knowing how to use them, I have a portable GPS in the bag.

It's really surprising how many people, given the hoopla over GPS, have no real idea of how to work'em, test'em, or how the approaches are designed and tested.

[Hedley]

I guess I'm a luddite. Here a picture of the cockpit
of the 421 that my kid took:

http://www.pittspecials.com/images/421_cockpit.jpg

Note all the fancy equipment in the dash. Note what's
on my lap.

I flew the Pitts to Central America and back again last
year. You'd never guess how I navigated

[Cat Driver]

When we do transoceanic ferry flights we use several GPS's including IFR certified and several handhelds.

We use ADF as a back up.

We also keep accurate position records as a means of track following and as an aid to use for DR if everything goes to hell....one of our most important tools is a sat phone.

We don't map read though.

[bcrosby]

I'm a <200 hour pilot currently working on my CPL. That said here is my thoughts on GPS as a newly minted pilot.

Map reading is just another tool in the arsenal for situational awareness and safety. The problem I see is that with everything else (when was the last time you practiced a precautionary landing?) you lose practice over time.

With tools like GPS, there is no need to use pilotage (or is it dead reckoning?) with your map anymore. Then one day when your GPS goes tits-up, you're a little rusty when you have to unfold that VNC for the first time in years.

Why not use both? On X-Countries I like to use the map as my primary source of navigation then just back it up with the GPS. *looks at map* "ok, i'm here, yup.. my flight planning log says I should be here in 2 minutes... excellent. *looks at gps* Yup I am where I am, but GPS says I'm 3 minutes ahead of sched.. *adjust log/plan*

I think if more people used the GPS in this method, they wouldn't miss it so much if it ever disappeared.

This might be off-topic.. but correct me if I'm wrong. You cannot (TC/Navcanada regulation) use a moving map (like in a G1000) for map to ground reading... you *must* use a paper map for that.

[iflyforpie]

Why not use both? On X-Countries I like to use the map as my primary source of navigation then just back it up with the GPS. *looks at map* "ok, i'm here, yup.. my flight planning log says I should be here in 2 minutes... excellent. *looks at gps* Yup I am where I am, but GPS says I'm 3 minutes ahead of sched.. *adjust log/plan*

Well said.

A good pilot should be able to navigate across the country with a map, watch, and compass. A good pilot also makes use of the resources available to him (like GPS).

The trick is to use the convenience of GPS without loosing the skills of pilotage (looking for ground features and comparing them to the map) and dead reckoning (estimating groundspeed and drift and correcting for them). Not an easy thing to do when GPS makes it so easy (until it doesn't).

[polar one]

What about when you're flying in the Arctic and your DG is precessing 1deg per minute but you don't have a precession log and your compass is about as useful as a 400lb hooker

Well, tired of the ground let me tell you....but first explain to me what flying in the Arctic has to do with your DG precessing 1 deg a minute. It is a gyro based instrument, not a compass.
You seem to claim you are an instructor. do you actually know what precession is?

But to get back to your question. We normally line up with a runway (in deg T), set the Dg and off we go. If one is flying VFR they can find a landmark (sometimes, as it gets really white and lacks landmarks most of the year) and check the DG . But the fact is, in the old days, we pretty much held a heading until we either determined our position by the sun or the stars, or picked up an ADF and corrected into the station.

One of the things, I think Hedley was implying, is that the new pilots are to reliant on the GPS and have not honed their basic navigation skills which puts them in a bad position if the GPS decides not to work.

Have you ever actually flown in the Arctic? Your comments remind me of one of those instructors who say you can not fly outbound from an ADF because the needle will always point to the 180 degree position.

Hope I answered your question. Now answer mine with regard to the DG.

[AntiNakedMan]

I remember a story from a fellow who was giving me a PPC ride. He was the chief pilot of a 704 op and got a call one morning from one of the crews. They were up north a ways and said "you have to send a mechanic, the plane is U/S, we've snagged it in the logbook."

"What's the snag?"

"The GPS won't turn on."

"Maybe you could defer that snag and pull out a map?"

"Oh. Ok."

Apparently the crew got back to base and thought they were Amelia Earharts for having map-read on their way home...

[C-GGGQ]

Apparently the crew got back to base and thought they were Amelia Earharts for having map-read on their way home...

I seem to remember that she never made it, maybe a GPS would have been a good idea. Sorry, too obvious to pass up

[Blakey]

Map reading is the only real safe way to navigate.

Before we left places such as Dakar for Natal I drew the track lines on the maps and put my 25 mile X marks on them.

Obviously map reading was the answer because we found Natal right on time.

.,

They won't get the joke if you don't tell them where Dakar and Natal are. And what's in between them! Nice spot for weather isn't it!

Blakey

[AntiNakedMan]

Apparently the crew got back to base and thought they were Amelia Earharts for having map-read on their way home...

I seem to remember that she never made it, maybe a GPS would have been a good idea. Sorry, too obvious to pass up

I dunno, there was only one trip she didn't make it on...... she did alright on all of the other ones.