Lets turn off the GPS

[tired of the ground]

What about when you're flying in the Arctic and your DG is precessing 1deg per minute but you don't have a precession log and your compass is about as useful as a 400lb hooker.....

sun's true bearing???? 15 times something minus something...........DAMN

Astro Compass.... Ya, didn't they have one of those in a museum once....

Kill the GPS and you kill a lot of pilots.....

Maybe the new pilots should be paying more attention in groundschool and less attention to the gadgets that your fancy job can afford you.

If a student ever asked me what the gps was or how to use it..... I'd tell them that once they knew how to use a map and a watch... then they would learn the mysterious ways of the GPS.....

[E-Flyer]

Consider the knowledge base of a pilot being like a pyramid that goes on for ever. If the basics aren't taught (or if the base is not strong enough) the Pyramid will fall apart sooner or later. That fall down might be recognized as not getting that airline job, or not getting that dream job you want or what ever.

I think it's the responsibility of the flight training unit to provide a strong base up to the point that the pilot is competent to learn other systems.

If the student knows how to work VFR navigational skills, instrument skills, and situational awareness skills, the GPS and later on FMC/FMS will add on much better and will be understood much better. But if there's a bit missing in the pyramid, then some thing's will cause issues for that pilot.


In other words, I think GPS needs to be taught, but only when the instructor feels that it could be beneficial for the student. You know? sort of like how they make a judgement call for the weather being or not being beneficial to the student.

[Strega]

[quote=Funny story, way back when, ok really not that long ago when I did my 300nm X-country from Boundry Bay to Sprinbank I was going to take a plane with two radios, a GPS, VOR, ADF. Alas due to a sang I ended up taking a plane with one radio, a sketchy ADF. Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.[/quote]


Is flying from Van to Calgary with only a map somthing to be proud of these days?

[Doc]

Interesting. I must wonder if we really need to teach map reading, and basic navigational skills at all any more. It's an interesting exercise, but with most of the aircraft out there equiped with all the "bells and whistles", perhaps the basic stuff is no longer needed? Can a freshly minted instructor even read a map? Should he have to be able to? Why?
I had a really interesting conversation with this old sailor a few years back. Seems he sails from England to Halifax every year. This guys, like 80 years old. I asked him if he used a sextant, and celistral (sp, I know) nav. He said..."Hell no! I ain't that stupid! I have three GPSs!"
Really though, I think map reading (really well) is a lost art. I can remember more than one flight with my thumb constantly on the map, following my progress at almost tree top altitude, in very bad vis.
That's not to say I don't think there should be a GPS unit in every aircraft flying....there should be.

[Cat Driver]

Is flying from Van to Calgary with only a map somthing to be proud of these days?

Of course it is Strega, the system has become so dumbed down todays new pilot's really don't know jack shit beyond what their instructors parrot out to them.....It's sad really.

[just curious]

What about when you're flying in the Arctic and your DG is precessing 1deg per minute but you don't have a precession log and your compass is about as useful as a 400lb hooker.....
sun's true bearing???? 15 times something minus something...........DAMN
Astro Compass.... Ya, didn't they have one of those in a museum once....

Got the precession log, astro compass and almanac. The formula bit your missing is -WLon, unless yer in the south then it's that divided by 180.

Really though, I think map reading (really well) is a lost art. I can remember more than one flight with my thumb constantly on the map, following my progress at almost tree top altitude, in very bad vis.

Still got the thumb callus.

Three words:

Watch - Map - Ground

Just got a fantastically accurate pilot watch to replace my breitling.

I got the maps, astro, almanac in my bag to back up the 2 ADFs, 2 VORS, and the IFR GPS. Even knowing how to use them, I have a portable GPS in the bag.

It's really surprising how many people, given the hoopla over GPS, have no real idea of how to work'em, test'em, or how the approaches are designed and tested.

[Hedley]

I guess I'm a luddite. Here a picture of the cockpit
of the 421 that my kid took:

http://www.pittspecials.com/images/421_cockpit.jpg

Note all the fancy equipment in the dash. Note what's
on my lap.

I flew the Pitts to Central America and back again last
year. You'd never guess how I navigated

[Cat Driver]

When we do transoceanic ferry flights we use several GPS's including IFR certified and several handhelds.

We use ADF as a back up.

We also keep accurate position records as a means of track following and as an aid to use for DR if everything goes to hell....one of our most important tools is a sat phone.

We don't map read though.

[bcrosby]

I'm a <200 hour pilot currently working on my CPL. That said here is my thoughts on GPS as a newly minted pilot.

Map reading is just another tool in the arsenal for situational awareness and safety. The problem I see is that with everything else (when was the last time you practiced a precautionary landing?) you lose practice over time.

With tools like GPS, there is no need to use pilotage (or is it dead reckoning?) with your map anymore. Then one day when your GPS goes tits-up, you're a little rusty when you have to unfold that VNC for the first time in years.

Why not use both? On X-Countries I like to use the map as my primary source of navigation then just back it up with the GPS. *looks at map* "ok, i'm here, yup.. my flight planning log says I should be here in 2 minutes... excellent. *looks at gps* Yup I am where I am, but GPS says I'm 3 minutes ahead of sched.. *adjust log/plan*

I think if more people used the GPS in this method, they wouldn't miss it so much if it ever disappeared.

This might be off-topic.. but correct me if I'm wrong. You cannot (TC/Navcanada regulation) use a moving map (like in a G1000) for map to ground reading... you *must* use a paper map for that.

[iflyforpie]

Why not use both? On X-Countries I like to use the map as my primary source of navigation then just back it up with the GPS. *looks at map* "ok, i'm here, yup.. my flight planning log says I should be here in 2 minutes... excellent. *looks at gps* Yup I am where I am, but GPS says I'm 3 minutes ahead of sched.. *adjust log/plan*

Well said.

A good pilot should be able to navigate across the country with a map, watch, and compass. A good pilot also makes use of the resources available to him (like GPS).

The trick is to use the convenience of GPS without loosing the skills of pilotage (looking for ground features and comparing them to the map) and dead reckoning (estimating groundspeed and drift and correcting for them). Not an easy thing to do when GPS makes it so easy (until it doesn't).

[polar one]

What about when you're flying in the Arctic and your DG is precessing 1deg per minute but you don't have a precession log and your compass is about as useful as a 400lb hooker

Well, tired of the ground let me tell you....but first explain to me what flying in the Arctic has to do with your DG precessing 1 deg a minute. It is a gyro based instrument, not a compass.
You seem to claim you are an instructor. do you actually know what precession is?

But to get back to your question. We normally line up with a runway (in deg T), set the Dg and off we go. If one is flying VFR they can find a landmark (sometimes, as it gets really white and lacks landmarks most of the year) and check the DG . But the fact is, in the old days, we pretty much held a heading until we either determined our position by the sun or the stars, or picked up an ADF and corrected into the station.

One of the things, I think Hedley was implying, is that the new pilots are to reliant on the GPS and have not honed their basic navigation skills which puts them in a bad position if the GPS decides not to work.

Have you ever actually flown in the Arctic? Your comments remind me of one of those instructors who say you can not fly outbound from an ADF because the needle will always point to the 180 degree position.

Hope I answered your question. Now answer mine with regard to the DG.

[AntiNakedMan]

I remember a story from a fellow who was giving me a PPC ride. He was the chief pilot of a 704 op and got a call one morning from one of the crews. They were up north a ways and said "you have to send a mechanic, the plane is U/S, we've snagged it in the logbook."

"What's the snag?"

"The GPS won't turn on."

"Maybe you could defer that snag and pull out a map?"

"Oh. Ok."

Apparently the crew got back to base and thought they were Amelia Earharts for having map-read on their way home...

[C-GGGQ]

Apparently the crew got back to base and thought they were Amelia Earharts for having map-read on their way home...

I seem to remember that she never made it, maybe a GPS would have been a good idea. Sorry, too obvious to pass up

[Blakey]

Map reading is the only real safe way to navigate.

Before we left places such as Dakar for Natal I drew the track lines on the maps and put my 25 mile X marks on them.

Obviously map reading was the answer because we found Natal right on time.

.,

They won't get the joke if you don't tell them where Dakar and Natal are. And what's in between them! Nice spot for weather isn't it!

Blakey

[AntiNakedMan]

Apparently the crew got back to base and thought they were Amelia Earharts for having map-read on their way home...

I seem to remember that she never made it, maybe a GPS would have been a good idea. Sorry, too obvious to pass up

I dunno, there was only one trip she didn't make it on...... she did alright on all of the other ones.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

.,

They won't get the joke if you don't tell them where Dakar and Natal are. And what's in between them! Nice spot for weather isn't it!

Blakey

My bad.

Dakar is in Senegal on the north west coast of Africa and Natal is in Brazil in South America. Map reading is not an option.

Yes Blakey the weather can be very interesting on that route as you have to cross the ITCZ at a shallow angle...interesting is an understatement.

[200hr Wonder]

Is flying from Van to Calgary with only a map somthing to be proud of these days?

Well at the time as a fresh PPL, I thought it was as it pushed my ability and made me a better pilot. Sorry I had to start out slow and was not an instant Bob Hoover. I mean doing a flight that at the time took consderable planning and most of my albiet limited skill to complete is not something to be proud of? If that is the case I think I quit flying!

[just curious]

Dakar is in Senegal on the north west coast of Africa and Natal is in Brazil in South America. Map reading is not an option.

Cheater, you took the easy East West route!

[sstaurus]

I have only been using watch/map/ground so far in my PPL training. Trouble I find, is why is there a difference in quality between VNC maps? For example I find the Thunder Bay VNC has great detail and I have no trouble identifying lakes, whereas the Winnipeg VNC sucks, the lakes all look like blobs how am I supposed to recognize anything?? Am I the only one who finds this?

[Strega]

Is flying from Van to Calgary with only a map somthing to be proud of these days?

Well at the time as a fresh PPL, I thought it was as it pushed my ability and made me a better pilot. Sorry I had to start out slow and was not an instant Bob Hoover. I mean doing a flight that at the time took consderable planning and most of my albiet limited skill to complete is not something to be proud of? If that is the case I think I quit flying!

What skills (outside of private pilot skills) are needed to fly from Van to YYC with only a map, compass, and watch?
If your instructors did not teach you all you needed to know to do this, they I would be writing a letter to TCCA complaining that your instructor was incompetent.


Im not slagging you, just stating the fact that a simple flight like this is really no big deal.....

Just as the other thread where the chap had the throttle stick open in the pawnee, is no big deal, but with our dumbed down system, both of these actions appear as they are fantastic feats of airmanship.

[200hr Wonder]

Well at the time as a fresh PPL, I thought it was as it pushed my ability and made me a better pilot. Sorry I had to start out slow and was not an instant Bob Hoover. I mean doing a flight that at the time took consderable planning and most of my albiet limited skill to complete is not something to be proud of? If that is the case I think I quit flying!

What skills (outside of private pilot skills) are needed to fly from Van to YYC with only a map, compass, and watch?
If your instructors did not teach you all you needed to know to do this, they I would be writing a letter to TCCA complaining that your instructor was incompetent.


Im not slagging you, just stating the fact that a simple flight like this is really no big deal.....

Just as the other thread where the chap had the throttle stick open in the pawnee, is no big deal, but with our dumbed down system, both of these actions appear as they are fantastic feats of airmanship.

Well Sterga nothing that is why I took on the trip as it was within my realm of skills, it just took all of them that I had to ensure a safe flight. And as a result I learned a whole bunch. It was further from home base then I had been before and included a few firsts. Is that not the point of the flight anyway? I mean slagging TCCA is one thing but I think slagging a new pilot doing a first and being proud of him is horse shit, I am sure you where proud of your first solo yet to a licensed pilot a couple of laps around the circuit is no big deal. So damit to me it was as it was a first and something that not many people in the world have done. I piloted a light aircraft safely through several mountain ranges and across the contintenal devide with nothing more than a map and a watch and I am proud of that fact, always will be. The fact that I did it safely and with good planning speaks volumes of my instruction. What part of ROOKIE PILOT at the time are you having trouble understanding? Just like any first it is a big goddamn deal!

[polar one]

sstraus wrote

all look like blobs how am I supposed to recognize anything?? Am I the only one who finds this?

No you are not . You will find in time that pretty soon the lakes actually look different and will look like they do on the map. Just keep at it. Trust me it will come.

[Strega]

Is flying from Van to Calgary with only a map somthing to be proud of these days?[/quote]


Well at the time as a fresh PPL, I thought it was as it pushed my ability and made me a better pilot. Sorry I had to start out slow and was not an instant Bob Hoover. I mean doing a flight that at the time took consderable planning and most of my albiet limited skill to complete is not something to be proud of? If that is the case I think I quit flying![/quote]


What skills (outside of private pilot skills) are needed to fly from Van to YYC with only a map, compass, and watch?
If your instructors did not teach you all you needed to know to do this, they I would be writing a letter to TCCA complaining that your instructor was incompetent.


Im not slagging you, just stating the fact that a simple flight like this is really no big deal.....

Just as the other thread where the chap had the throttle stick open in the pawnee, is no big deal, but with our dumbed down system, both of these actions appear as they are fantastic feats of airmanship.[/quote]

Well Sterga nothing that is why I took on the trip as it was within my realm of skills, it just took all of them that I had to ensure a safe flight. And as a result I learned a whole bunch. It was further from home base then I had been before and included a few firsts. Is that not the point of the flight anyway? I mean slagging TCCA is one thing but I think slagging a new pilot doing a first and being proud of him is horse shit, I am sure you where proud of your first solo yet to a licensed pilot a couple of laps around the circuit is no big deal. So damit to me it was as it was a first and something that not many people in the world have done. I piloted a light aircraft safely through several mountain ranges and across the contintenal devide with nothing more than a map and a watch and I am proud of that fact, always will be. The fact that I did it safely and with good planning speaks volumes of my instruction. What part of ROOKIE PILOT at the time are you having trouble understanding? Just like any first it is a big goddamn deal![/quote]


For the record, you dont need anything other than a good set of eyes to fly from Van to YYC,, you simply need to follow the Highway,, or to get all technical, the VFR route....

[MichaelP]

I think flying to Calgary is a big deal for many students taught to fly here in the Lower Mainland, and for many others as well.
Imagine flying from Calgary to Vancouver, or even Winnipeg to Vancouver... Easy follow the highway, yes, but more than that it's the weather, making decisions on the way, having a plan for an engine failure, going to unfamiliar places.
If you are smart you look at the times, work your estimates out and calculate your fuel use. You do a bit of work on the way and have a better picture of everything.

My first really long flight was to Paris.... Flogging SSE from Le Touquet my passengers asked where we were... I was merrily flying a course that would take me to the Seine near Mantes (watch for the glider field) where a left turn along the south side would take me directly into Toussus Le Noble. Easy.
And it was!
But what about a weather or fuel diversion? Situational awareness is important!
I swore to know exactly where I was from then on and not be a lazy so and so...

No, I have flown East and West between here and Quebec, and south and east, west and north to Florida and other places down there.
I don't take any of these trips lightly, I do a certain amount of planning, and I always have awareness of where I am.
It is easy, but it is easy for having done many hours at it, many hours starting from the same position everyone of us began from.

So I would not put down someone for considering a flight to Calgary without GPS to be something special, it is.

[BoostedNihilist]

.