Tower reclassification

[NJ]

Has any tower changed classification recently? We received a note saying that ours did not change.

[Braun]

Heard YOW did.

[scrambled_legs]

Did it go down or up?

[Braun]

Down, but that is because it is from previous years, traffic has significantly increased and they will most likely go back up next time around

[invertedattitude]

I think CYQM did, apparently they've gone from thirty something on the "Busiest Tower List" to #12.

I can say from a pilots point of view, whatever those guys are getting paid it's not enough, it's an absolute Chinese hornets nest on the slowest of days.

Traffic numbers alone do not do justice to what those guys and gals are doing in Moncton tower. Not only getting the job done but doing it well!

[scrambled_legs]

How is it that almost all the towers across the country got downgraded or stayed the same with the new classification, with the exception of a few, and every IFR unit got upgraded? Ottawa a grade 3 tower? I'd love to see a crosstraining program between Ottawa and an enroute high sector. I'd put my money on more tower controllers checking out in the enroute sector, than enroute controllers checking out in Ottawa tower. How do you justify a grade 3 in CYOW and a grade 6 in high level enroute???

And now we have a big committee determining how to change the classification because Pearson tower controllers are getting paid the most in Canada and a VFR controller can't make more than an IFR. Why not??? Try putting any IFR controller in Pearson and they'd struggle to make it. Hell I know some people that have gone from busy IFR sectors and struggled to make it in grade 2 towers. Ab-initio trainees regularly check out in every IFR sector across Canada yet I don't know of one that has made it at Pearson tower.

Just some food for thought. Maybe its time to get rid of the stigma that VFR is a stepping stone to the IFR world.

[grimey]

How is it that almost all the towers across the country got downgraded or stayed the same with the new classification, with the exception of a few, and every IFR unit got upgraded? Ottawa a grade 3 tower? I'd love to see a crosstraining program between Ottawa and an enroute high sector. I'd put my money on more tower controllers checking out in the enroute sector, than enroute controllers checking out in Ottawa tower. How do you justify a grade 3 in CYOW and a grade 6 in high level enroute???

And now we have a big committee determining how to change the classification because Pearson tower controllers are getting paid the most in Canada and a VFR controller can't make more than an IFR. Why not??? Try putting any IFR controller in Pearson and they'd struggle to make it. Hell I know some people that have gone from busy IFR sectors and struggled to make it in grade 2 towers. Ab-initio trainees regularly check out in every IFR sector across Canada yet I don't know of one that has made it at Pearson tower.

Alot of that (not the checkout rate at Pearson, but the cross training) may have to do with individual aptitudes. Just like the skill set required for FSS and ATC are different (leading to alot of comments about FSS not cutting when they cross train into ATC), the skill sets required between VFR and IFR, and between different IFR specialties could make one job easy for one guy and hard for another, and vice versa.

/not trying to start a fight between everyone in the company, just saying...

[invertedattitude]

. Ab-initio trainees regularly check out in every IFR sector across Canada....

WTF are you talking about?

Our checkout rate is somewhere around 30%.

I've personally met at least 6 VFR controllers who couldn't make it IFR.

I'm yet to meet an IFR controller who couldn't make it VFR (Considering 95% of our staff had VFR experience before IFR) Not saying it doesn't happen, just not quite as common as you make it sound.

IFR and VFR controlling are two completely different machines, two different aptitudes required.

Bottom line we get paid for our level of responsibility and knowledge level and traffic load.

I'll be happy to agree that some VFR towers are likely busier and tougher than some IFR specialties.

If IFR controlling is so easy and VFR is so hard, then why don't VFR controllers transfer to IFR for the easier job and better pay? God knows we're short staffed, come on up!

[grimey]

If IFR controlling is so easy and VFR is so hard, then why don't VFR controllers transfer to IFR for the easier job and better pay? God knows we're short staffed, come on up!

Your view sucks.

[scrambled_legs]

Ok... I guess my point got lost in translation. I'm not trying to tell you that VFR is harder than IFR, just trying to point out that there are VFR towers that work just as hard as some IFR specialties for a hell of a lot less pay.

. Ab-initio trainees regularly check out in every IFR sector across Canada....

WTF are you talking about?

Our checkout rate is somewhere around 30%.

I was referring to Pearson never having had an abinitio controller qualify. To the best of my knowledge, their checkout rate is 0% and there experienced controller rate is probably in the 30% range, do you have any IFR specialties with those stats? Why don't they deserve to be the highest paid controllers in Canada, other than the stigma that they're VFR?

I've personally met at least 6 VFR controllers who couldn't make it IFR.

I'm yet to meet an IFR controller who couldn't make it VFR (Considering 95% of our staff had VFR experience before IFR) Not saying it doesn't happen, just not quite as common as you make it sound.

I could name the same in the reverse. A good example is the girl who was a terminal controller for CYYZ and just recently got CT'd after being unable to qualify at CYYZ tower. Like Grimey said they are different jobs, just like some controllers can work procedural without sweating but screw up working radar.

IFR and VFR controlling are two completely different machines, two different aptitudes required.

This is part of my point... two different aptitudes but often equally as difficult, only the pay doesn't reflect that. With todays traffic and rules, VFR isn't a stepping stone to IFR anymore, it's a completely different game and in several towers, on the same level as some of the IFR specialties.

Bottom line we get paid for our level of responsibility and knowledge level and traffic load.

OK lets compare CYOW tower vs. terminal under that premise.
Level of responsibility - tower handles all the aircraft and lives that terminal handles plus their own. Sure the airspace is smaller but that means less time to plan and less space to work. Terminal only has to worry about their traffic, yet tower has to handle all of their traffic plus try and figure out how terminal is going to dump their traffic on them. There are very few special terminal controllers that actually care about helping tower mix in the 15 VFR aircraft that they are also talking to. We are also responsible for providing IFR departure seperation and now enroute seperation for IFR planned MA's.
Knowledge - A tower like CYOW still needs to know all the approaches, airspace, most of the Radar seperation rules etc. The only thing that they are clueless on is the procedural IFR chapter but then again ask a terminal controller with 25 years in, questions about procedural and they'd probably have blank stares. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the airspace revert to enroute in the event of a radar failure? Also ask a terminal controller about Manops section 3 and once again they'll have blank stares. In my opinion the knowledge is virtually matched.
Traffic load - Tower handles all of terminal's IFR's plus all the VFR's whereas CYOW terminal handles less than 10% of towers VFR's (I flew out of there, talking to terminal is a rarity unless you're IFR). Ottawa Tower handled 166,000 movements last year. Ottawa Terminal handled around 100,000

I'll be happy to agree that some VFR towers are likely busier and tougher than some IFR specialties.

This is my point.

I don't think that CYOW should be a grade 6 tower, but it sure as hell isn't a 3! In my opinion, CYYJ, CYYC, CYUL, and even CYOW are just as difficult to work or are tougher than the easiest IFR specialties, yet these towers range in grade from ATC 3-5 and the easiest IFR sector is still an ATC 6. The latest ATC classification screwed the VFR majority and worshiped the IFR. Sure its easy to say, "If you don't like it then switch". The union's been saying it for years and believe me, if I wasn't so opposed to working in a basement in Surrey, Edmonton, or Winnipeg, I would be all over it. The funny thing is that now that the shoes on the other foot, and CYYZ tower are the highest paid controllers in Canada, the union is eating their words. They are madly working on a task force with the company to make CYYZ IFR controllers the highest paid once again. So my question is why can't CYYZ tower be paid more... if you don't like it, then prove how easy it is and switch. God knows they need the staff!!!

[invertedattitude]

Scrambled,

I obviously can't fully throw too much weight around on the subject, since I've never been a tower controller.

From what I understand the reason IFR is paid more than VFR is the complexity of the job, not just the difficulty, including the required higher level of knowledge to safely do your job. I'm not saying VFR controllers don't need to know a lot of information, but an IFR controller needs to know almost all the same items as a VFR and more (Although a tower controller does need to know their airport layout and specific operational requirements like the back of their hand)

I think one problem you're always going to run into, and correct me if I'm wrong, but IFR controllers outnumber VFR controllers by a hefty amount I believe, which will make it hard to be passed, although that being said I think a LOT of controllers would go to VFR if the pay was higher.

[scrambled_legs]

Scrambled,
I think one problem you're always going to run into, and correct me if I'm wrong, but IFR controllers outnumber VFR controllers by a hefty amount I believe, which will make it hard to be passed, although that being said I think a LOT of controllers would go to VFR if the pay was higher.

BINGO!!!

The union and the company aim to please the majority. If it means that little places like CYOW tower have to get a joke of a salary in order to give the majority a raise, then thats the way it is. CYOW does not deserve ATC3, CYYZ may fully deserve the highest pay in Canada. Does the company or union care if some of the towers are bitching, if all the IFR are happy? NO

By the way the AI01 now ATC1 towers got a hefty raise, so that satisfied a large amount of controllers on the VFR side as well. I no longer have any desire to work the traffic that I do, for a few pennies more. I'll be looking to downgrade to an ATC1 or 2 in a desirable location, first chance I get. Aside from the ATC1, most of us are green circled and can't be bothered to fight for a fair wage. When CYOW terminal relocated to Montreal Center, a large number of the controllers transfered over to CYOW tower. It'd be interesting to see what the ex CYOW terminal controllers would say about knowledge, workload, & responsibility. They'd probably be ready to shoot someone right now if they weren't happily green circled AI05's.

[Braun]

I'm sorry scrambled, but Ottawa terminal speaks to more than 15% of the VFR's that tower talks too, in fact, they speak to every single VFR aircraft that exits the zone. In fact every single aircraft that takes off from YOW to the practice area talks to terminal. They have procedures to make operations very smooth so it is not as incredibly complex as you make it seem. If you think YOW terminal is a breeze compared to the tower maybe you should go observe on a busy IFR/VFR day.

[scrambled_legs]

You IFR guys are horrible on the readbacks!!!

I don't think that CYOW should be a grade 6 tower, but it sure as hell isn't a 3! In my opinion, CYYJ, CYYC, CYUL, and even CYOW are just as difficult to work or are tougher than the easiest IFR specialties, yet these towers range in grade from ATC 3-5 and the Easiest IFR sector is still an ATC 6.

I'm not saying that CYOW terminal is a breeze nor is it the easiest IFR sector. All I'm saying is that both CYOW tower and terminal is difficult yet only one is paid appropriately for it. I've been to the terminal when it's busy, have you been to the tower? I don't know for sure how difficult it is to work CYOW, I've never done it. I can't imagine a crossing rwy operation with the VFR rwy on the threshold of the landing and departing IFR rwy and the downwind going through a 2 mile arrival/ departure path with wake turbulence sep is easy. When 25/07 is the active, the operation is probably smooth, when 14/32 is active, it's gotta be a nightmare.

If the VFR's are talking to terminal enroute to the P/A, then my memory is either going or the procedures have changed. I remember only talking to them if I wanted higher than 2,000'. Does anyone here have any first hand knowledge of how CYOW term/tower run? I'd love to hear the ex CYOW terminal now CYOW tower employees take on the differences.

[NJ]

so YOW's a 3 and what is YYZ now? What about YQM or YZU?

[yrp]

... Aside from the ATC1, most of us are green circled and can't be bothered to fight for a fair wage....

What do you mean by green circled, scrambled?

Sounds either really good or really bad, can't tell which.

[scrambled_legs]

Green circled is where your unit's pay is lowered and you stay at whatever pay scale you were previously on. When the Terminal relocated to Montreal I believe the terminal controllers were getting paid AI05. The company probably let them switch to tower and stay at the same pay scale as that's been the previous standard. Ottawa was an AI04 before reclassification, so everyone would get paid AI04 except for the ex terminal controllers who probably stayed at AI05. So if they went to an ATC4 with the new classification, it would have been a slight pay raise for everyone except the ex terminal controllers who stayed green circled as an AI05.

Confused yet???

Now that they've been downgraded to an ATC3, it doesn't affect anyone except the poor controller that gets posted there or transfers there, who is getting paid less than anyone ever was. Kinda hard to get the rest of the unit to fight for fair pay, when they're still getting paid it and you're the only one that's not. It's a sneaky way for the company to be able to establish a new lower pay scale with only pissing off the new hires and transfers that have no say.

So in a nutshell green circling is a good thing if you're the one that's green circled and a really shitty thing if you're the only one thats not.

[Braun]

Well, in defense of the yow terminal controllers they do also control Quebec, which I hear isn't always the easiest to do. Tower works only one airspace. Anyways they will go back up to a ATC04 next time because traffic has been increasing in YOW anyways. Not permanent.

[Old Dog Flying]

This arguement over pay scales and responsibilities has been going on since Pontius Pilit was a Flight Cadet...and having done both IFR and VFR, I can only comment

"IFR Controlling is a science...VFR controlling is an art!"

What really burned my butt was a NICTI grad taking a year and a half to check out at Boundary(Blunder)Bay but there is more to that which I won't get into.