Did you find it worth it.

[flyinhigh]

Hey folks,
Currently I am at Jazz. The salary here does suck but the benefits are second to none. The wife is a pediatric nurse which for myself means that lifestyle is all I am really worried about as she makes a good buck, and I want to make sure that retirement is set.

So, for all that have gone over.
Is it worth the jump, I am curious what you WILL bring in, in the first 2 years. What is the benefits like, Long/Short term, health, dental. What is the average sched(been hearing max days on of 16).

I have decided to apply as I have always wanted to work there but if they call now as I do have a pretty good deal going it'll be a hard decision to make so I am looking for more info.

Thanks alot

Mike

[WJ700]

The Benefits suck here at WestJet as well. I'm not sure what the LTD covers you for at Jazz now, but WestJet is 5 years. The STD/LTD are much cheaper than Jazz. The Dental is pathetic, but the drug prescription coverage is adequate. The Sunlife package is paid for by WestJet. Schedule is descent most of the time but don't kid yourself, you need your time off for recovery. I've covered 6 time zones in 48 hours this month between Orlando and Maui. The vacation system is adequate, but does not fully cover a day for a day. Based on our max days on of 16, the credit should be around 5+ and it's currently 4.5 per day. The compensation is good but your pension is the ESP. It adds up very fast and has always paid off well to date. If you choose to jump in to the ESP, full on, for the first two years, you'll have a cash flow issue but it will add about another 6 grand to your first year if you choose to do it. I don't recommend it myself as I just threw the shares on my creditline and that was back when a house in Calgary was still 200K. Second year is a bit better. Third year you're breathing easier.

The job in itself is probably the most rewarding, great people, fun times at work. No politics and managers that remember your name and remain approachable. No 'us and them' or 'the company'. You're attitude at work changes fast and its actually 'fun' to go to work. The WJPA is doing a fine job of steady but painfully slow evolution. We have some glaring holes in the 'what if' scenarios like out of country incidents, but so far we've been partly lucky and partly naive. The working relationship with our managers is enviable when contrasted to other Airlines so I bank on that to save my ass for now... I don't have much choice. ALPA has great backing that you probably take for granted now, but it would never fit in at WestJet. With the capitalistic and owner mentality, a home made association is the best fit; however, it takes time and money to build. I personally don't mind the wait to avoid the traditional union set up.

I get a little tired of the 'WestJet pay' threads but your question seems genuine. Hope my babble leads you to make an informed decision. I came from Jazz after my layoff in 2003.

[Ryan Coke2]

Did you mean to say that you don't recommend maxing the ESP in the first year? That is what is read like but it didn't really make sense. I feel bad for the people that feel they can't do it, and then miss out on a bunch of extra money.

As for the benefits, I'm also ex Jazz, but I don't think they are that bad comparatively. Especially when you look at how much you pay for them at Jazz, IMO it isn't usually worth the difference. And overall they are just as good, it is really the dental where there is a bit of a problem. None the less, I expect that they will be improving very shortly.

The LTD and STD are very similar if I recall correctly, and fairly decent at both places, though it would be nice to see LTD at 10 years in occupation instead of 5, but I am unsure if that is even possible (I suppose anything is possible for the right price).

Totally agree on the 'protections' offered by ALPA in the event of an 'event', about the only thing I miss from ALPA. Hopefully we get something set up soon.

[KAG]

Do it!!!!
The flying is similar with the opportunity to fly down south. Longer credit days (usually), longer -but fewer legs (again usually) and the crews are great to work with. Everyone from the ground staff to the gate agents to your FA's are friendly and there to get the job done, and have some fun along the way.

If the crappy pay, politics, and upcoming 09 talks have gotten to ya, the lack of anything serious to bitch about here should suit you just fine. We have our issues, but overall a much more satisfying job. IMHO anyway.

[Norfolk]

I should have taken that job at Singapore Airlines.

[flyinhigh]

Thanks guys I do appreciate all the input. My biggest thing is making sure that family is takin care of.

again thanks and if anyone else can add anything, greatly appreciated.

[WJ700]

Did you mean to say that you don't recommend maxing the ESP in the first year? That is what is read like but it didn't really make sense. I feel bad for the people that feel they can't do it, and then miss out on a bunch of extra money.

As for the benefits, I'm also ex Jazz, but I don't think they are that bad comparatively. Especially when you look at how much you pay for them at Jazz, IMO it isn't usually worth the difference. And overall they are just as good, it is really the dental where there is a bit of a problem. None the less, I expect that they will be improving very shortly.

The LTD and STD are very similar if I recall correctly, and fairly decent at both places, though it would be nice to see LTD at 10 years in occupation instead of 5, but I am unsure if that is even possible (I suppose anything is possible for the right price).

Totally agree on the 'protections' offered by ALPA in the event of an 'event', about the only thing I miss from ALPA. Hopefully we get something set up soon.

Yes, I meant to say I do not recommend it, but that is personal history. I did the ESP and just found I had to pay off some debt to near the same amount 16 months later, primarily due to lack of cash flow for the first year. I have no idea how someone would do it now with the current cost of living. Again, just an opinion, but I think the ESP should not be oversold to a new hire. It's a fantastic opportunity and it can sell itself. When I find a first year pilot is trying to support a family AND take part to a full 20%... it's more because they felt it was such a must do by someone. I usually say... 'just buy what you can afford'. After a few years here you end up with so many WestJet shares for free that you have no fears when low on toilet paper.
As for benefits... try and ask yourself what you can do to replace a 200+ thousand a year job with no notice. Meaning, you can spend five years fighting for your medical back and then get a big fat 'No' from TC. That's why we need 10 years minimum AND a Loss of License plan that will not be affected by the LOL insurance (many carriers will pro-rate your benefit leading up to a pay out when they know you have another source of income). We've already had a few medical out and one guy was a pretty young Captain. I'd love to hear from an ACPA pilot lurking here to know what they have in comparison.

As I've said, the biggest seller of WestJet is the work atmosphere but the fellow did ask about the benefits and not so much concern on the money. We know the money is good but there is work to do in the other areas.

[Ryan Coke2]

Regarding the ESP, I am surprised, but to each their own. I am certainly happy I did it. For me it is just math, and whatever results in more money. But no doubt it is tough the first year or 2.

About the benefits, to me if something sucks it is a relative term--like ours aren't as good as other groups. It sounds like you don't have a frame of reference for anyone else, but it sucks because you want it be better. Jazz was the same 5 years LTD if I recall as well, so I wouldn't say it sucks comparatively. And LOL insurance is just bad math (although most insurance is)--most people will pay big money in and get nothing back. I am curious about increasing LTD, and what the premium differential would be--I suspect that may be the better way to go than LOL.

I still think the setup here is comparable to Jazz overall, but it I am curious how it stacks up against AC.

[Four1oh]

Unless the stock you're buying with ESP halves the next year, you make money. My recommendation is no matter how much it hurts, do the 20%, you probably won't find a deal like that anywhere in the country, and that's including non-aviation jobs.

The mistake I made in my first year was that I put 80% of my ESP into RRSP's. When I needed to sell shares to pay the bills the next year, I hardly had any shares to sell. I recommend none, or very low percentage of your ESP to RRSP's for at least the first year.

[WJ700]

It sounds like you don't have a frame of reference for anyone else, but it sucks because you want it be better. Jazz was the same 5 years LTD if I recall as well, so I wouldn't say it sucks comparatively. And LOL insurance is just bad math (although most insurance is)--most people will pay big money in and get nothing back. I am curious about increasing LTD, and what the premium differential would be--I suspect that may be the better way to go than LOL.

Well until now I haven't been accused of not doing my homework but let me dig in to the gray matter for what I can remember from 2002.
I remember Jazz to be short term disability to a longer time frame a 66.6% tax free. While you were off, the additional coverages were also paid by Jazz (not so for us... when off we have to pay for STD, LTD and life premiums.). The LTD then carried you to year 7 with a top up in the ALPA plan. When all was said and done you could apply for money to retrain through another program. Maybe a Jazz pilot can post what is current here.

Is that comparative to us? No. It is reasonable that someone in a professional position relying on medical health may need more coverage. I don't agree with you that insurance is always bad math when you have something worth insuring. I don't throw collision on my 97 Minivan but I do on my boat, because its worth a lot more. I have an insurance rider on my mountain bike but not on my kids bike. I buy life insurance through both Sunlife and PPIP for the same reason as if I were to lose my medical. My wife can replace my income if I die now but we can't replace it if I lose my medical. Also, the fact I remain alive is more of a financial burden than just pushing up daisies. Remember... all is fair in WestJet's world so a CSA has the same coverage as you and me, but they only need to replace a 40K per year job. When we are in later years of our career there is less to worry about from accumulated wealth and less need for insurance. However, the worst possible place for someone to lose a medical is in your 30's and having a young family. Look at the demographic of our pilot group and you'll see a lot of people will benefit from improving this coverage.

I did send my concerns in via the correct channels and I encourage you to do the same. One of my big concerns was this LTD/LOL coverage, and hopefully we'll all find some middle ground together, with our managers onside, to get improvements.

[Azure]

Each day you waste thinking about it, add another 10 numbers to the list. If your not ready to go today you'll probably end up in the area of 1000? That may mean a long upgrade.

After 2009 you might see a spike in retirements.

[Ryan Coke2]

[quote="WJ700"]Well until now I haven't been accused of not doing my homework but let me dig in to the gray matter for what I can remember from 2002.
[/quote]

Didn't mean to make any 'accusations' and I am just working off memory as well. It just seemed that your explanation wasn't based on the comparators as much as what you want to see. I am interested in determining more accurately what the better plans out there really consist of, as opposed to just saying it sucks. I don't see a drastic difference, but perhaps my memory has failed me. I should probably go and dig out my old Jazz benefits guide and do a little reading.

The 'fairness' jab I don't like---yes we try to keep things fair, but there are already several differences with pilot benefits in recognition of varied requirements, and there may need to be more changes specifically for our group.

At any rate, suffice it to say I am interested in improvements as well, but I disagree with the benefits 'suck' comment.

[flyinhigh]

Each day you waste thinking about it, add another 10 numbers to the list. If your not ready to go today you'll probably end up in the area of 1000? That may mean a long upgrade.

meah, numbers are just those. numbers. I personally don't care how long the upgrades are as long as I go to work with a smile on my face. Hence why I have NEVER nor will ever send a resume to main line.

However my resume has been sent, so we'll see. If I get called great, if not no biggy.

Again thanx everyone, all this info is really makin it an easier decision IF i do get called.

[Red1]

Things to think about.

The benefit package is being completely redone, and should be out by January of next year. It will, so far as they have told us, be a flex benefit program, which should result in a much better benefit program.

I would highly recommend contributing into the ESP as soon as you can. It adds up very quickly, even if you have to borrow the money to contribute. In your first year you will make at least an extra $6000. If you had to borrow the money it will cost you approximately $315 for the Year (only paying the interest at %5.25, talk to an accountant because you might be able to write off the interest if the money borrowed was for an investment). Because the ESP is purchased every month, you are taking advantage of dollar cost averaging. Basically because the stock is purchased every month it balances out the high and lows, which makes it very hard to loose on your purchases ( when the stock goes down you buy more, when it goes up a little less). The more important number is your adjusted cost bases price (also used to figure out your capital gain or loss) which is a running average price. In the end its up to you, but you could be up $6000 even if you had to borrow the money you still would be ahead.

[Arctic84]

Each day you waste thinking about it, add another 10 numbers to the list. If your not ready to go today you'll probably end up in the area of 1000? That may mean a long upgrade.

After 2009 you might see a spike in retirements.

Okay, curiosity has the better of me. Why might there be a spike of retirements in 2009 at WJ?

Or am I misreading your post and you mean AC?

Cheers

[flyinhigh]

He meant Jazz,