I always wondered

[Commonwealth]

Hi everyone,

I have never been given a straight answer to this question.

If a pilot is hired at Jazz and after a few years is hired at main line Air Canada, does the pilot keep his or her date of hire when they make the switch? Another way to ask is; do Jazz pilots have seniority with Main Line, even if they are not working there?

Any thoughts.....?

[Sulako]

yes, with a small caveat:

Suppose you have been @ Jazz for 5 years then get on w. mainline.

You will start at a slightly higher salary for the first 2 years @ mainline, but you'll still be on salary.

After 2 years, assuming you get out of the crappy paygroup you start in (ie get posted to a 320 or 767 or whatever) you go on formula pay, and you get credit for the years you spent at Jazz.

So let's do it this way - 5 years with Jazz, then do 2 years at AC. On your 3rd year at AC, you'll get paid as if you had 8 years seniority.

[pilotbzh]

Jazz Pilot get a new date of hire. If they haven't completed 2 years on type at Jazz they will be delay to go to Mainline and keep as date of hire the Ground school they were suppose to be on (valid for travel benefit too). they can carry up to 4 years credit for pay (makes a big difference) but still have to be on the 2 years flat pay (adjusted for years@Jazz)...

As clear as mud...

[pilotbzh]

You beat me by 1min...

[tonysoprano]

Sounds like a good gig. No wonder Jazz pilots who don't get on at mainline can sometimes be bitter towards mothergoose.... and get even worse when they go to the GiddyUp side.

[whipline]

I've always wondered what would happen if an OTS new hire challenged the above?

[Commonwealth]

Thanks for the answers people.

I may have to earn a law degree to fully understand all the ins and outs.

Cheers

[bcflyer]

I've always wondered what would happen if an OTS new hire challenged the above?

What is there to challenge?

[whipline]

What is there to challenge? Its not a common company. That LOU was written when AC owned the connectors. I beleive the courts have already ruled its not a common company with the lawsuit the AO guys/gals had/have going; precedent is already there. I think I also read that some OTS pilots in the 90's challenged the LOU, don't remember the outcome though.

I realize Jazz pilots are held back, but thats certainly not the fault of a new hire OTS. If they want a direct flow through then all the hiring should come from the connector, or if its one company merge the list. Neither of those are presently the case which I think leaves it wide open for an OTS to challenge being placed behind someone who is not at the company but placed ahead of them on the list.

[prop2jet]

The issue of the LOU really is a moot point given that current hiring at Mainline has all but stopped suffice to cover attrition. New collective agreements are going to be negotiated in the coming year etc. If someone OTS has a beef they should get over it and move on.

[tonysoprano]

Might I add that there was a time when Jazz pilots were held back AND DID NOT get a sen number at mainline when their number came up. In other words, screwed, blued and tatood. You think things are bad now?? They have improved.

[bcflyer]

I think I also read that some OTS pilots in the 90's challenged the LOU, don't remember the outcome though.

I believe that was over a block on numbers that were reserved for future new hires from the connectors but not assigned to individual pilots. Nothing like what is happening now.

I realize Jazz pilots are held back, but thats certainly not the fault of a new hire OTS. If they want a direct flow through then all the hiring should come from the connector, or if its one company merge the list. Neither of those are presently the case which I think leaves it wide open for an OTS to challenge being placed behind someone who is not at the company but placed ahead of them on the list.

For one thing it is far from a flowthrough agreement. All it does is give Jazz pilots the opportunity to have an interview in order of seniority. Secondly, if the Jazz pilots weren't held back they would be in exactly the same place on the list as they are now, only flying A/C airplanes. The OTS guy would still be behind them on the list. Not because they were hired off the street but because they were hired AFTER the Jazz guy. In fact freezing the Jazz guys actually helps some of the OTS guys for awhile as they are holding artifical seniority while the Jazz guys wait their turn to be released.

[BLZD1]

I been with AC for almost 2 years and there is still guys at
Jazz which will be hired at AC that will be ahead of me in seniority. I talked to one guy who went Cpt on the EMJ about 6 months after he got on AC. He was being paid between 4 - 6 years formula Capt. pay.

Sweet Deal if you ask me!!

[bcflyer]

I been with AC for almost 2 years and there is still guys at
Jazz which will be hired at AC that will be ahead of me in seniority. I talked to one guy who went Cpt on the EMJ about 6 months after he got on AC. He was being paid between 4 - 6 years formula Capt. pay.

Sweet Deal if you ask me!!

The money part is definitely a perk. However think of the guys that are still at Jazz after almost 2 yrs. (and just to reiterate, if they are ahead of you on the list, they aren't going to be hired in the future, they have already been hired before you and held back by Jazz. They weren't granted any kind of super seniority) If they hadn't been frozen they could be in the left seat of the EMJ instead of right seat on a Dash or RJ. When they do get released, they will be assigned to whatever position is required as all new hires do. The biggest difference is that things have slowed down considerably movement wise and where as in the past they could have made a jump to EMJ CT or 320 F/O just about right away, now it may take quite a bit longer even though seniority wise they can hold it. Also well while they are frozen at Jazz, A/C is monitoring their training records as well as their sick days, essentially turning their one year probation into three. Don't get me wrong there are some definite good parts to it, its just not as sweet a deal as some would believe.

[whipline]

BCFlyer the question still remains, why does someone from Jazz get any deal at AC?

Attempting to justify is irrelevant, they are seperate companies and right now all new hires at AC are not treated equally. I think OTS pilots would have a good case if they were to challenge that outdated LOU.

[babybus]

BCFlyer the question still remains, why does someone from Jazz get any deal at AC?

Attempting to justify is irrelevant, they are seperate companies and right now all new hires at AC are not treated equally. I think OTS pilots would have a good case if they were to challenge that outdated LOU.

This is ridiculous,if you are a new-hire you know how the system works prior to accepting the job,so don't sign on the dotted line and then come and fight it.
AC can do what they want because it's their airline.If they wanted to extend the same benefits to let's say Skyservice guys then it's their business.
Any new-hire that comes in looking to fight this is looking to not making it out of his probation year.
We have enough divisions as it is (red-blue-Jazz) don't think we'll tolerate a new guy coming here and trying to open another front.

[JazzJetDriver]

"We have enough divisions as it is (red-blue-Jazz)"

And I wonder just who was the source of all those divisions...?

How could you have spelt unity? Let me tell you...P I C H E R

[babybus]

"We have enough divisions as it is (red-blue-Jazz)"

And I wonder just who was the source of all those divisions...?

How could you have spelt unity? Let me tell you...P I C H E R

Picher is what 15 years ago?I don't agree with it but that's not teh point here anymore.The divisions of the past are why we are here today.Have you not learned anything ?
Regardless of how we feel of Picher or Mitchnick or Keller the point is:WE DON'T NEED MORE DIVISION.

[Airband]

I think OTS pilots would have a good case if they were to challenge that outdated LOU.

And what body would you see being empowered to hear, find cause and apply remedy with respect to such a challenge?


.

[Traf]

BCFlyer the question still remains, why does someone from Jazz get any deal at AC?

Attempting to justify is irrelevant, they are seperate companies and right now all new hires at AC are not treated equally. I think OTS pilots would have a good case if they were to challenge that outdated LOU.

This is just stupid talk! For one, there is no free ride for the Jazz pilots. Let me explain. I will type slow you OTSers that feel hard done by can get a grip on the reality of this LOU.

1. The perecentage of guys interviewed vs hired is no better at Jazz than OTS.
2. You have to wait your turn in seniority to get the interview. Not the case with OTS. Since AC has interviewed almost everyone with a pulse, the argument that "at least it is a guaranteed interview" does not hold water.
3. if hired, Jazz pilots can be frozen for up to 2 years. In the meantime, they could be stuck in the right seat of an RJ or D8 compared to getting on with their new job and flying bigger equipment.
4. WHile frozen, AC makes them sign a waiver allowing them access to their work record for that period. In some cases, AC has used that against people and actually sent them a PFO a year after they were accepted. Certainly not something an OTSer risks.

If you want to argue that these are two seperate companies and that the Jazz pilots have an unfair advantage, you might want to get all the facts first. Tell me, how many other seperate companies out there does AC hold the new hire back from taking the job as soon as he is hired? How many other seperate companies out there does AC get access to your work/training records for up to 2 years when really, you should have been at AC for that whole time? How many other seperate companies does AC control where you fly and what you fly (direct control)? Tell me, how many other seperate companies filed for bankruptcy along with AC when they filed for CCAA? How many other seperate companies took paycuts along with the AC employees when AC filed for CCAA?

The fact is, Jazz is not a seperate company wether the lawyers say they are for seniority purposes or not. Recently percentages of Jazz have been sold off but the reality is, there is still a mothership relationship between the two companies and the Jazz pilots are faced with challenges that any of the OTSers would be pissing and moaning over if they had these same rules applied to them. Don't believe me? Look at all the bitching going on over this LOU that in reality does not have any negative effect on the OTSers at all. To me, it is just a bunch of whiners who perceive an injustice but like someone mentioned above, those Jazz pilots were hired before you and the only reason they were not actually on the property before you was because they were forced to sta at Jazz against their own will.

You OTS should be thankful for this relationship. If Jazz was not tied so closely to AC, AC would be hiring from them non stop. Think about it, where else in this country would you find such a large pool of pilots with Jet/EFIS/High density/SOPs that are willing to come over to AC? If you think I am crazy, take a look at WJs hiring practises as of late. They are ripping from Jazz and filling their groundschools with our pilots with a much much higher percentage than people OTS. Why? Because a guy that has spent a couple of years flying an RJ or D8, flying around North America is much easier to train than say someone with some King Air or Twin Otter time. On top of that, Jazz interviews it's candidates, sims them and medicals them to pick the best qualified. All WJ has to do is give em a year on the jet to get them up to speed then hire them for the teal team. Let Jazz incure the costs of finding the best qualified amonst their applicants and then hire them at WJ a year later. Just be thankful AC has a financial interest in not taking a Jazz pilot. Maybe that number you are complaining about would be a lot lower or not even a number at all if things were "fair" or Jazz was actually a "seperate" company.

Methinks the OTS should just be happy they got a number at all because if one had to guess, the music could be slowing quickly in the near future.

[KAG]

Excellent post traf.

Personally, I think there should be flow through, and if you want to work for AC, you must go through Jazz first.
Start by sliding the Jazz seniority list under the AC list, and allow the Jazz drivers to bid for opening in the AC system by seniority.
Sure it would take a bit of getting used to, piss a few people off, but in the long run it just might help solve a few of the issues you folks have (whipsawing being one of them). There are a lot of Jazz pilots that would stay at Jazz for life style reasons, and the drivers who want to move over will when their turn comes up.
Conversely, 60 year old AC drivers who want a few more years of flying could bid back down to the Jazz system.
One list, one voice, more control over your futures.
Just a thought anyway.

[timbuck]

Very well said Traf.

[tonysoprano]

Start by sliding the Jazz seniority list under the AC list, and allow the Jazz drivers to bid for opening in the AC system by seniority.

That was offered to ALPA. The senior guys didn't like bottom of the list. Never went to a vote, never discussed with the rest of the group. Just flat out rejected by those at the top.

Conversely, 60 year old AC drivers who want a few more years of flying could bid back down to the Jazz system.

Well, easy now, not sure about that one. The old guys fear the RJ
and wouldn't know what to do with propellers unless it's on a boat.

[JazzJetDriver]

"Conversely, 60 year old AC drivers who want a few more years of flying could bid back down to the Jazz system"

To start at the bottom of the list obviously.

[Four1oh]

This is starting to make sense why so few Jazz guys go to mainline. The costs for AC are astronomical! First, even though they're separate companies, officially, the empty seat at Jazz costs money to replace, plus, the hugely inflated wages once the pilot's entrenched at AC compared to the OTS pilot. Far cheaper both for training costs and wages to hire OTS.