Westjet RNP into YXX
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Westjet RNP into YXX
Hi There,
Just wanted to get some opinions on the RNP approach into YXX... Rumor has it that it brings you guys down to anywhere between 3000'-4800' on the north side of sumas mountain (7-8nm NE of a/d) - which is in close proximity to a crowded practice area and a busy east-west VFR transit route (this all outside of YXX's zone and below YVR TMNL which bases at 9500'/4500')
Some of the FTU's in the lower mainland are up in arms about the 37's bombing through at 150-200kts.. most of us have mode C and I realize you probably see us well before we see you... but what about that fleet canuck making the weekend warrior run to Chilliwack?
Have any of you had a close-call RA to dodge small GA traffic down there? Most of the time we're not monitoring YXX freqency because the air-to-air has enough traffic to keep us busy dodging each other...
Just want to hear what you guys think...
Just wanted to get some opinions on the RNP approach into YXX... Rumor has it that it brings you guys down to anywhere between 3000'-4800' on the north side of sumas mountain (7-8nm NE of a/d) - which is in close proximity to a crowded practice area and a busy east-west VFR transit route (this all outside of YXX's zone and below YVR TMNL which bases at 9500'/4500')
Some of the FTU's in the lower mainland are up in arms about the 37's bombing through at 150-200kts.. most of us have mode C and I realize you probably see us well before we see you... but what about that fleet canuck making the weekend warrior run to Chilliwack?
Have any of you had a close-call RA to dodge small GA traffic down there? Most of the time we're not monitoring YXX freqency because the air-to-air has enough traffic to keep us busy dodging each other...
Just want to hear what you guys think...
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Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
I have never personally had an RA there, I can't recall how close it comes to your one area but I do recall hearing about the transition route. One good thing with the RNP arrival opposed to vectors is that the route will always be predictable and within the given altitude resrictions for that segment of the arrival or departure through the transition area. Given this information to the schools or flight suppliment it should make it pretty simple to work something out.
Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
I believe we're held above all that practice area traffic until almost in the downwind. I think they hold us up at 7000' or higher. Makes for a steep descent if we get a visual.
Drinking outside the box.
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Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
[quote="taylor498"]Hi There,
Just wanted to get some opinions on the RNP approach into YXX... Rumor has it that it brings you guys down to anywhere between 3000'-4800' on the north side of sumas mountain (7-8nm NE of a/d) [/quote]
This is not true or correct. We fly the normal arrival (haras1) into YXX, and normally only use the RNP approach if there is a problem with the ILS for 07. There is currently no RNP approach for 25, due partly to difficulties related to various airspace issues, likely including the area you are referring to. But it does not exist yet.
The RNP departure off of 07 is not an issue as you describe either. The only procedure that matches what you are talking about is the visual approach, and we come down the north side of Sumas and around the west side on a right base for 25. The VFR traffic there is certainly a consideration, but it does save substantial time, fuel, and of course greenhouse gases. Gotta do what we can for the environment, right?
Just wanted to get some opinions on the RNP approach into YXX... Rumor has it that it brings you guys down to anywhere between 3000'-4800' on the north side of sumas mountain (7-8nm NE of a/d) [/quote]
This is not true or correct. We fly the normal arrival (haras1) into YXX, and normally only use the RNP approach if there is a problem with the ILS for 07. There is currently no RNP approach for 25, due partly to difficulties related to various airspace issues, likely including the area you are referring to. But it does not exist yet.
The RNP departure off of 07 is not an issue as you describe either. The only procedure that matches what you are talking about is the visual approach, and we come down the north side of Sumas and around the west side on a right base for 25. The VFR traffic there is certainly a consideration, but it does save substantial time, fuel, and of course greenhouse gases. Gotta do what we can for the environment, right?

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Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
Effective June 5th, there is now a "short gate" arrival that will probably mean the RNP runway 07 will be preferable to the ILS, given suitable weather and traffic.
Until the rumoured RNP 25 arrives, the visual (or VFR) approach for 25 will probably still present some challenges and possible traffic issues, if everybody isn't communicating intentions. On the WJ end, crews have the option of submitting an internal safety report (AQD) if incidents occur. An AQD mandates a follow up.
I've put some thought into it, and I doubt I'll be carrying out the visual (or VFR) approach to 25 in the future. It can be quite busy for us. I think I'll spend the time, money, and emit some greenhouse gases (into the sheepskin and elsewhere) in order to keep the blood pressure down.
Please pass on to your colleagues that it's important for them to follow up on any traffic conflicts or safety concerns via official channels, though I'm not sure exactly how you guys do that. We all need the safety input...
Until the rumoured RNP 25 arrives, the visual (or VFR) approach for 25 will probably still present some challenges and possible traffic issues, if everybody isn't communicating intentions. On the WJ end, crews have the option of submitting an internal safety report (AQD) if incidents occur. An AQD mandates a follow up.
I've put some thought into it, and I doubt I'll be carrying out the visual (or VFR) approach to 25 in the future. It can be quite busy for us. I think I'll spend the time, money, and emit some greenhouse gases (into the sheepskin and elsewhere) in order to keep the blood pressure down.
Please pass on to your colleagues that it's important for them to follow up on any traffic conflicts or safety concerns via official channels, though I'm not sure exactly how you guys do that. We all need the safety input...
Last edited by Rotten Apple #1 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:51 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
Agreed. Unfortunately that information is not available to us, and the only reason we suspected that the new RNP approach is by a couple close encounters (nothing too serious fortunately) that I've heard of through the grapevine. As a training commercial pilot, I would do all I can to avoid your approach path if I only knew where it was! I realize WJ doesn't want to post their company approach plates for all to see, but at least an advisory area for us to avoid would help. Right now it's a crap shoot. Perhaps some of you at Westjet can speak to the right people and see if this might be possible?Flightlevels wrote:I have never personally had an RA there, I can't recall how close it comes to your one area but I do recall hearing about the transition route. One good thing with the RNP arrival opposed to vectors is that the route will always be predictable and within the given altitude resrictions for that segment of the arrival or departure through the transition area. Given this information to the schools or flight suppliment it should make it pretty simple to work something out.
Thank you for your concern. We'll be sure to do that. I can imagine Westjet is a fairly approachable company and genuinely concerned for the safety of both your aircraft and us little guys around below.jonny dangerous wrote:I've put some thought into it, and I doubt I'll be carrying out the visual to 25 in the future. It can be quite busy for us. I think I'll spend the time, money, and emit some greenhouse gases in order to keep the blood pressure down.
Please let your local GA pilots to follow up on any traffic conflicts or safety concerns via official channels. We all need the safety input...
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Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
Ohhhhhh. Ya got me 'fore I could clean er up of the grammer. Serves me right.Please let your local GA pilots to follow up
'Approachable', without a doubt.
I remember my father (a pilot as well) attending an RNP presentation at the Vernon Flying Club put on by our technical dispatch guru at the time. He's since left for greener pastures (our loss), but I'm sure the same courtesy would be granted to Fraser Valley pilots.
I'd bet one result of those encounters between WJ and Okanagan Valley GA pilots was the annotation to all flight releases for YLW (Kelowna) bound WJ aircraft to broadcast intentions on local frequency when approaching Vernon at certain times due to soaring activities. Perhaps something similar is warranted for YXX flights.
Personally, I didn't grow up flying around in the mountains like you guys make out here. In Atlantic Canada we long ago ran out of guys and money to make our mountains so big. Yours scare me. Mind you, throw me all of Mother Nature's winter fury at YHZ or YYT and I can hold my own.
That's what makes me just a bit leary around YXX. That and the traffic and the restricted areas and the steep descent I'm forced to currently due in order to land on runway 25 when it's a visual approach. It makes it a busy time in our business.
The RNP would solve that problem, and provide a predictable path, every time, with only minor variations in descent speed (due to a number of factors) below 10000'. For the foreseeable future, WJ will be the only operator doing these approaches, meaning we're talking I suppose ten approaches a day (haven't checked actual flights). The cost for our competitor(s) to transition over to RNP approach technology makes that a reasonable assumption.
Anyway, thanks for your input.
JD
P.S. Just re-read your post and found this:
I don't know anything about that issue so I wouldn't want to comment. I've never thought about it.I realize WJ doesn't want to post their company approach plates for all to see
Cheers
Last edited by Rotten Apple #1 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
As of today, visuals to YXX are no longer permitted. RNP app for 25 and 19 should come in the fall.
Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
Taylor
The Westjet RNPs are proprietary yes, but secret? No. If you can get your hands on an RCAP (Restricted Canada Air Pilot) CD you can find them all on there.
The Westjet RNPs are proprietary yes, but secret? No. If you can get your hands on an RCAP (Restricted Canada Air Pilot) CD you can find them all on there.
Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
What sparked this decision? (visual prohib.)Ryan Coke2 wrote:As of today, visuals to YXX are no longer permitted. RNP app for 25 and 19 should come in the fall.
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Thanks for the info everyone. For some reason I was under the impression company designed approaches were confidential...
T
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Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
CCnCoke wrote:Taylor
The Westjet RNPs are proprietary yes, but secret? No. If you can get your hands on an RCAP (Restricted Canada Air Pilot) CD you can find them all on there.
Isn't Naverus owned or has some affiliation with Boeing?
Re: Westjet RNP into YXX
taylor498 wrote:What sparked this decision? (visual prohib.)Ryan Coke2 wrote:As of today, visuals to YXX are no longer permitted. RNP app for 25 and 19 should come in the fall.
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Thanks for the info everyone. For some reason I was under the impression company designed approaches were confidential...
T
I think its as per your original post... too much VFR traffic to contend with. We have a few more RNP approaches on the way for YXX airport and they are far more efficient anyway.