WTF is going on in the training industry in Canada!?!?!?!?

[Tizz]

Hello all, I would like to start off by stating that I have spent the last few hours of the evening starting/finishing a bottle of whisky and Dr Pepper (a fantastic invention of a drink introduced to me by a rather cool fling wing friend of mine) and am at the time of writing this rather drunk (however my current state of intoxication is in no way related to the issue I am about to discuss, its my day off it was time to drink, the friends have bitched out so what is one to do but hit Ol AV CANADA!). So please keep all this in mind as a caveat when criticizing or commenting on my following questions/commentary.

I have elected to pop open a new account at the time of writing this as it is not my intention to name names, point fingers, or rock any boats and one could probably figure out who I was talking about if they elected to go through my previous postings. IE fresh account = wanting to open the lines of discussion without pissing anyone off. I am only interested in solving issues not exasperating them. Furthermore to this point: in the interest of this alcohol induced thread actually doing something constructive (does anything constructive actually EVER happen on here?) I would like to request that all who respond to this tread please generalize all commentary and not name nor “kinda name” any schools/cities/regions etc; doing so will only serve to piss people off and in all realty will likely end up in having this potentially touchy thread pulled; and considering the issues im about to bring up here I think such actions would be very much counter productive to the industry as a whole.

As background, I am a young mid level instructor who is currently working at a medium sized shop in a medium sized city somewhere about’s in this large country of ours. I have had sufficient experience for some time to move on to bigger and better things than just bopping around the circuit in a 150, however I am just finishing up school and as such am tied to the city ie: I have elected to stay in the training industry longer than most of my peers, however I do not plan to stay in training indefinitely.

I sent an international student on a first solo today. This student by all accounts is technically & dextrally competent, motivated, knowledgeable, and hard working (I sure as hell never filled up a full binder with hand written notes and diagrams during my instructor rating let alone my PPL.) This student has flown at our shop ~ 3 times in total in the last as many days, originally coming from another (nationally well respected) school as a walk in. When this student entered the office on Monday (3 days ago) the PTR indicated to me that the student had been flying regularly (3+ times a week.) It did not indicate any outstanding issues, OTHER than the small problem that this student had OVER 60 hours and had not yet been sent SOLO!!!! I will also now restate that neither the CFI nor myself could find any outstanding reasons why this should be the case. There were certainly a few errors to correct however these (in my opinion) were directly attributable to previous training and were in no way an effect of the student’s ability as a pilot (IE not being made aware of the existence of Vfe, nor being aware that one could ask tower what they want if you are unsure.)
This is not the first such pissed off student to walk in the door as of late, at the moment my rather intoxicated mind can immediately drum a number of other international students which have all had similar experiences, One of which had over 100 hours and had a grand total of 3 solo flights prior to walking in our door.

I have recently had some discussions with other international students who have trained at the big brand name schools across the country (I am not talking about some small mom and pop operations in Hicktown NWT.) And the stories I am hearing are frankly appalling. For example,

-A licensed CPL who had NEVER been given a PGI in his life.

-Schools refusing to release PTRs, then when TC shakes the saber, claiming the student was never a student and they have no idea where they came from.

-Students being sent packing by immigration when families threaten to sue.

-Competent students routinely being milked for tens of thousands of dollars then being told they will never pass a flight test without significantly more training, then within a week or two of joining a small mom and pop operation getting issued a license.

-And in my mind worst of all, being directly exposed to blatantly bigotous attitudes by staff and instructors.


Since when did this stop being a service industry? Am I just totally naive to the realities of the world here? Is this actually totally acceptable, and I’m just being a whiny liberal? How far flung is this issue? surly i’m not the only one cleaning up other peoples shit? Penultimatly i’m sure these examples do NOT make up the entirety of the international training community, and historically I have had nothing to sing but praises to the students I have dealt with which have come from these other institutions. But in the end I have never EVER heard as many complaints as I am now…. One could then logically conclude there is likely some truth to the complaining.

Ultimately I fear this goes beyond the staffing shortage issue. I am concerned this has the speckled colorings of some form of modern day exploitation coupled with a good Ol fashioned money grab, although certainly staffing does play a roll. From what I have seen and heared in the past few months, I am concerned that there is an underlying massive problem here, does anyone else have any insight to give?

[Kelowna Pilot]

Paper thin profit margins and some shady characters. Aviation in a nutshell.

[swixtt]

holy cow, i can't believe what i just read. that many hours and no Solo yet????

i just started my training and held off last year because the guy who was running it before was a crook! i refuse to do business with any shady characters and ALWAYS ask around before getting involved. i believe someone should have a serious chat with those schools treating the students that way.
can they not be inspected by TC and have their license suspended? why not post them on here for all to read. i sure would post a company name if i was that student. it makes my blood boil when read sheet like this. if it's one thing in life i have no tolerence for it is being ripped off and lied too.
i certainly hope this industry has some decent people replacing those ones.
what was the school he came from?

[rottentomatoes]

THANKS YOU for posting this, the same things, pretty much everything you wrote happened to me. I stopped flying for about two months to think if I want to continue, now I am looking for a school to get back into flying, and I most likely have to do another checkout exam for Cessna 150 because I had been flying a different type of plane for the past one year. I am just wondering if you have any recommendation on how to choose a flight school, I really don't want to end up in the same situation. One thing I am worried about is that I just moved to Toronto, and I am not too sure if it is a good idea to restart my training here given the high volume of air traffic around (both airliners and training aircrafts). Thanks I really appreciate this.

[square]

The busier the better, quiet airspace is a.. auh--yawwnn--excuse me, bore.

[MyMeowCat]

Hi Tiz:

Thanks for your enlightening post – It specifies exactly what I have been suspecting all along! Normally we shouldn’t openly support negative posts but your story describes exactly what it is like for some international/foreign students.

I’m sitting here with a beer trying to drown away my aviation traumas as well as you -- but I was a student.

Here’s a bit about my background – I’m not a foreign student – but I am a member of a visible minority. I was born and raised in Canada, speak and write fluent English, etc so there is no “cultural” or language barrier for me.

I always wanted to fly and be a commercial pilot – even if I never end up at Westjet -- I would’ve been happy just being a bush pilot. I own a successful business and have the ultimate flexible schedule as well as cash and time. I would’ve been happier as a pilot and want to get my wings before I’m over 40.

I spent over 2 months taking online courses and read all the books before I even got into ground-school. I was hoping to get a PPL in 6 weeks but I figured I’d better give it 3 to 5 months due to the instructor shortage thing.

However – as a “foreign” looking student:

* You get snubbed at the front desk – getting service is harder – even if you are lined up to pay the bill...I saw this Asian guy ready to pay the bill but the guy at the cash register just walked away and started chatting with his friends! I don't care howmuch of a cowboy he thought he was -- but that kind of stuff is just plain wrong and dis-respectful.

* Some instructors won’t de-brief you – they appear to be in a hurry to chat with their friends or go onto something else.

* You will have your instructor (s) not show up, show up 1 hr late, and if he is with another student – he’ll take his time helping them out and leave you waiting in the reception area.

* You are told things that are just plain wrong – example: you must apply full throttle to recover from a spin. I was smart enough to pick that one up – but some students might not be – that stuff ends up getting people killed.

* Instructors, staff, reception, admins, etc. don’t care what you think of them or anything else since (as a “foreign” person) – you won’t be in the same “group” or clique. Even if an instructor hates his job – he’ll still do his best with people they think they connect with, people in the same cultural group, etc…but no one cares about the foreign guy who will probably go back overseas anyways – never to be heard from again in the Canadian Aviation Community

* Quality of instruction is obviously going to be lower and training is sabotaged.

* They say try all the instructors when first starting out but stick with ONE as you progress. If the place is really busy – the foreign student takes second priority and no instructor wants to take you on… they would rather take on someone who knows f*** all rather than someone almost ready to write their exam. I figured all those months of reading and studying before signing up would make the instructor(s) jobs easier – but this had no effect.

* In the end – you end up ejecting from the crap and looking like an idiot who flunked out of flight school, had to give up not just a CPL but also the PPL. It wasted months of my time. Imagine the embarassment for the student who has travelled far, studied hard, and made a great sacrifice --- to explain to their family and friends how they just "couldn't get it".

* If you notice your cash going down the drain and start having concerns – it impacts your performance and eventually the PTR – which sometimes I think prejudices the next instructor at the next FTU. Your next FTU might think “Holy crap – 60 hrs and NO solo??…what kind of idiot is this??…This person is probably a write-off”.

* You end up asking people on forums like this -- things like -- how to land an airplane, fly circuits, etc. because instruction is so poor!

I’d like to thank Tizz for hitting the nail on the head and taking on International Students fleeing other FTU’s. As a former student – I really appreciate such a confirming post from an instructor.

My "Won Ton" Meow Cat
I'm not a foreign student -- I just look like one
I should re-iterate that I can read, write and speak English FLUENTLY with NO Accent

[Kelowna Pilot]

However – as a “foreign” looking student:

It's not because you're a foreigner, it's because the instructors were unprofessional.

I could you tell you some stories about some "characters" I had as instructors, and I'm not a visible minority.

Remember that a lot of flight instructors are very young guys, often with limited social skills and experience.

[KAG]

My meow cat
This is not a new thing, it's a simple case of buyer beware and inexperienced/unprofessional instructors. My school fleeced me for dual hours as the perceived notion was "dual was free". That college is no longer around.
Not happy with the service, talk to the owner, if that doesn't work switch schools. Let the new school know why you left, and what you expect from them.

Sorry this had to happen to you, but greed and ignorance are not just aviation specific.

[Wacko]

Yeah... when I first read this post I didn't understand the underlying purpose... I figured it was just the norm. Part of the problem IMHO is that for some weird reason students at these FTU's feel the FTU's are doing them the favor of taking their money... I guess it's just lack of experience as most students are ~18 and haven't experienced this before.

I do feel sorry for the International students though... a lot of the schools shat sponsor them have a hold on them. They could move to a different flight school but they would need to usually find new accommodations and such... With talking to some of them... they get lied to by the companies in their countries before coming here as well though... at the end of the day if you're not a well informed consumer you deserve to be ripped off... i think.

In regards to the blond... and the kid with 100 hours dual before solo... that's a flip of a coin... I've personally met people who's parents are too rich for their own good... they don't come prepared and/or don't fly enough... not saying that these people fall in that mold but it does work both way... I think that if you have 0-75ish hours and you're not flying at least 2 times a week you can't possibly be surprised that you're not progressing as fast as the guy beside you.

[swixtt]

at the end of the day if you're not a well informed consumer you deserve to be ripped off... i think.

nope, i completely disagree with you on that one. i am just into my training and knew very little before flight training... as i progressed since april i know WAY more than i did when i started. not just with the aircraft and the training but also how things are in the aviation business. how do you expect me to learn this without getting into it and learning from people in the business? you can be damn sure that if i found out something into my training that wasn't proper they would hear about it quick.
my point is, as with anything in life, you must have some degree of trust in the people you are dealing with to help you get started. once you've learned a little and understand how things work a bit better then you start to realize what is acceptable and what isn't. maybe the students are too afraid to say anything to their respective school but that is NO REASON to abuse people in that way. it just comes down to respect. i bet 99% of those dudes(the ones ripping people off) in the flight school would b!*tch and complain if they were overcharged for an oil-change on their car. as i bet most wouldn't even change it themselves!
adios

[MichaelP]

I don't think there's a more multi cultural school than the one I'm in!

Negative threads like this are not good for people's morale. I agree with all I read above, I've seen it all and myself been involved in sorting out a lot of the misery.

I had a lady who I solo'd at 49 hours... But she had been flying with an instructor of her own nationality, a culture where women do defer to men, why should she land the aeroplane when he can do it better?
I let her nearly crash the aeroplane several times before she got the message that Michael might not save the day, then she began to land it quite well.
Her solo was the biggest risk I took, she bounced on the first landing, it wasn't pretty, but it was safe, then she greased the next one, and the one after that!

There are some people on here who are doing their best to improve the situation here in Canada...

Let's try to accentuate the positive and negate the negative.

Ask your questions and get the responses from the people who care on this forum.
We will not change the Canadian 'training' culture very quickly and it's self damaging to cry about it.

[SkyWolfe]

There are some out there who would like to help change the industry. Be great instructors and make sure everyone is #1... Too bad they don't have enough money and the government wount help them

I guess I am feeling a little sour.

Wolfie

[MichaelP]

I guess I am feeling a little sour.

That's terrible! You're usually as fresh as a daisy, and bright too, when you come here.
I hope that you are progressing with you instructor rating... You are the right stuff; since you decided to check out in the Citabria, that shows passion!

[Wacko]

nope, i completely disagree ...

I don't know... I think you proved my point by posting here You did enough research to find this place... though I doubt you take everything on here at face value, I'm sure you found a few things out by reading the posts.

Michael;

It's a lot easier to point out the things that are done wrong than the things that are done right... If I tell you I can solo a person at 12 hours I'm sure someone on here is going to tell me I'm doing something wrong

[MyMeowCat]

“at the end of the day if you're not a well informed consumer you deserve to be ripped off... i think.” I think a lot of people actually did their research and ended up in a mess anyways.

As Tizz mentioned in the original post – these are International students fleeing “big brand name schools across the country (I am not talking about some small mom and pop operations in Hicktown NWT.)”

Wacko brought up a good point that “a lot of the schools shat sponsor them have a hold on them. They could move to a different flight school but they would need to usually find new accommodations and such” -- Not to mention that they are NOT attending the educational institution that they originally wrote in their paper work. Imagine if you prepaid your rent, food, health insurance, etc… If you switch schools and get ill – will the insurance cover you (after all – you aren’t attend the school you said you were going to attend), If you already paid rent – will you have to pay again, provide references, etc.?

What I am trying to say is that the situation has to be real bad for them to quit and switch in large numbers.

For each student defecting over to the Shop that Tizz teaches at…there are many others stuck in a bad situation and are unable to flee. Instead they stay – and rack up the numbers in the CADORS and incident databases.

I remember someone asking for advice on what to do about some foreign students that don’t show up, show up late/unprepared, etc Some are probably too rich and don’t want to be there, ect. Aviation is not for everyone. On the other hand too – if a student starts to get screwed and see/hear bad things happen at their FTU – they would exhibit similar symptoms. Instead of maintaining a heading or studying up CARs they are actually thinking of the consequences of switching FTUs or quitting.

[E-Flyer]

“at the end of the day if you're not a well informed consumer you deserve to be ripped off... i think.” I think a lot of people actually did their research and ended up in a mess anyways.

As Tizz mentioned in the original post – these are International students fleeing “big brand name schools across the country (I am not talking about some small mom and pop operations in Hicktown NWT.)”

Wacko brought up a good point that “a lot of the schools shat sponsor them have a hold on them. They could move to a different flight school but they would need to usually find new accommodations and such” -- Not to mention that they are NOT attending the educational institution that they originally wrote in their paper work. Imagine if you prepaid your rent, food, health insurance, etc… If you switch schools and get ill – will the insurance cover you (after all – you aren’t attend the school you said you were going to attend), If you already paid rent – will you have to pay again, provide references, etc.?

What I am trying to say is that the situation has to be real bad for them to quit and switch in large numbers.

For each student defecting over to the Shop that Tizz teaches at…there are many others stuck in a bad situation and are unable to flee. Instead they stay – and rack up the numbers in the CADORS and incident databases.

I remember someone asking for advice on what to do about some foreign students that don’t show up, show up late/unprepared, etc Some are probably too rich and don’t want to be there, ect. Aviation is not for everyone. On the other hand too – if a student starts to get screwed and see/hear bad things happen at their FTU – they would exhibit similar symptoms. Instead of maintaining a heading or studying up CARs they are actually thinking of the consequences of switching FTUs or quitting.

I've been around for 4 years now in the industry, not too long, but I must say that his is the first time I hear that your race actually was discriminated against. I'm sort of raising my 'hmmm' flag on that one.

I'm from a visible minority as well but i've not had any problems yet. I did have problems at my previous flight school, but at the current one... nada.

Just 4 you lads thinking of flying in the lower mainland, I'm at Canadian Flight Centre, and they kick ass. Laid back, and welcoming. After a few flights and a few hot dogs, you're part of the CFC family. For Christ Sake, they give you coffee mugs with CFC logo and your name on it These are all nice, but the instruction is superior. The CFI used to be a high-school teacher and he knows how to get good instructors.

From what I gather, the school MP works for is also another excellent one. They have to be, my ex instructor works there now and well to say the least, I passed my flight test with flying colours.

Maybe we should promote school's to go to and school's not to go to.

[square]

nope, i completely disagree ...

I don't know... I think you proved my point by posting here

Yeah man, if people are dumb enough to trust you, screw em! Right on Ayn

[200hr Wonder]

I think discrimination does happen, a lot in fact. A school with students from India, where the instructors have to work 10x as hard to get lessons done, and you see "another brown guy" walk in, the instructors will more than likely treat them the same as the foreign students. Unfortunately I think a lot of it comes from the upper management and is then impressed upon the instructor core. And here is why:

Fact - A student who is ESL with a limited amount of English exposure is going to require significant more time in ground briefings to ensure understanding of each lesson. I can not think of one school that actually gives the extra time.

Result - Instructors give up and just get int he plane and hope people don't kill them selves

Remedy - The students need longer flight blocks. 2hrs for 1.5 flight is not enough for an native English speaker let alone someone who you might have to go significantly slower or over things more than once. A 2.5 to 3hr block is what should be required here. Actually for everyone!

I *hope* and have no proof of this BTW, that a lot of what is being seen is the result of frustration on the instructors part. Not to defend it or say it is professional, but how many of these puppy mills see huge dollar signs for foreign students, bite off more than they can chew and push everyone students and staff beyond safety, beyond reasonable just get the product out?

[MichaelP]

1. The above is why foreign training should be done on a contract basis with the extra time taken into account.
2. Instructors should be put on a salary for such contracts and treated as professional teachers.
3. Hour hungry instructors need not apply!

It was interesting teaching in China, and it is interesting seeing new students from India here...
It is also a fact that local students from here in Canada are not always much better.

Life has changed, the Meccano sets of yore no longer sell, many kids are bought cars and can't do anything under the hood. They are often not even the remotest interested.
So there is a generation of technically inept people.
I encourage teenagers to build model aeroplanes and fly them, there's a lot of understanding that comes from this.
Of course modern radio control models are largely prebuilt...

So teaching people to fly in the sixties seventies and even eighties was easier as kids grew up fixing their old bangers, flying Cox 049 model planes and doing a lot of technical stuff.
Now we are back to the early days when kids knew little of technical things, but even they came off the farms with machinery sometimes run by steam! They learned in aeroplanes that were similar to free flight model aeroplanes... They bust a few, but like those model aeroplanes, glue and wood was all that was needed to fix them.

[200hr Wonder]

1. The above is why foreign training should be done on a contract basis with the extra time taken into account.
Agreed 110%
2. Instructors should be put on a salary for such contracts and treated as professional teachers.
Yup
3. Hour hungry instructors need not apply!
Yup again
It was interesting teaching in China, and it is interesting seeing new students from India here...
It is also a fact that local students from here in Canada are not always much better.

Life has changed, the Meccano sets of yore no longer sell, many kids are bought cars and can't do anything under the hood. They are often not even the remotest interested.
So there is a generation of technically inept people.
I encourage teenagers to build model aeroplanes and fly them, there's a lot of understanding that comes from this.
Of course modern radio control models are largely prebuilt...

So teaching people to fly in the sixties seventies and even eighties was easier as kids grew up fixing their old bangers, flying Cox 049 model planes and doing a lot of technical stuff.
Now we are back to the early days when kids knew little of technical things, but even they came off the farms with machinery sometimes run by steam! They learned in aeroplanes that were similar to free flight model aeroplanes... They bust a few, but like those model aeroplanes, glue and wood was all that was needed to fix them.

I really like the way the Air Cadet contracts are run. You get say 16 students and they eat sleep live and die as a group. If the foreign students did that it would make life so much easier. The way I would structure the course would be this:

16 students, 2 groups of 8.

Group 1

0800 - 0830 Group 1 - PGI
0830 - 0845 Group 1 - Pre Flight
0845 - 1030 Group 1 First student flight
1030 - 1215 Group 1 Second student Flight
1215 - 1245 Lunch
1245 - 1630 Ground School

Group 2

0800 - 1215 Ground School Group 2
1215 - 1245 Lunch
1245 - 1315 Group 2 - PGI
1315 - 1330 Group 2 - Pre Flight
1330 - 1515 Group 2 First Student Flight
1515 - 1700 Group 2 Second Student Flight

Bad weather days double ground school for everyone. Do it Monday - Friday 0800-1700 and pay your instructors a fair daily wage. A group like that you need 5 planes. The instructors when it comes time to cross country get paid do things like 1-1 briefings, improve ground school, can take time to study for there own upgrades etc. And of you work it correctly you can dove tail a second group starting as the first group gets to commercial time building with 10 or so planes. Total instructors: 4 flight on the program, a couple of weekend/evening guys for the after hours stuff, 2 ground school. It is SO easy to do it just requires planing (and not just whats for lunch), a good strong leader who keeps people on time/track and dedicated instructors. We did it with the Cadets and it was so much fun! There is no reason why these schools can't do it like this. Get in and out in 18 weeks or less, guaranteed. 7 weeks for PPL, 7 weeks for time building, 3 weeks CPL dual, 2 weeks for multi, 2 weeks for IFR, 4 weeks for weather. The problem is you need instructors who are willing to work hard for a full 8 hours and fly a lot of it. You need your own maintenance people so that you can get away with 1 - 2 spare aircraft. Missing a flight because a radio is US for example is not good. If you come back with a bad com, maintenance should be there waiting, with a spare to fire in and go. So you need a strong team to keep you in the air! What have I not mentioned? Students, because guess what, they will take care of them selves! You keep all the rest of it in check and the students will drive them selves to be perfect, guaranteed!

[E-Flyer]

I think discrimination does happen, a lot in fact. A school with students from India, where the instructors have to work 10x as hard to get lessons done, and you see "another brown guy" walk in, the instructors will more than likely treat them the same as the foreign students. Unfortunately I think a lot of it comes from the upper management and is then impressed upon the instructor core. And here is why:

Fact - A student who is ESL with a limited amount of English exposure is going to require significant more time in ground briefings to ensure understanding of each lesson. I can not think of one school that actually gives the extra time.

Result - Instructors give up and just get int he plane and hope people don't kill them selves

Remedy - The students need longer flight blocks. 2hrs for 1.5 flight is not enough for an native English speaker let alone someone who you might have to go significantly slower or over things more than once. A 2.5 to 3hr block is what should be required here. Actually for everyone!

I *hope* and have no proof of this BTW, that a lot of what is being seen is the result of frustration on the instructors part. Not to defend it or say it is professional, but how many of these puppy mills see huge dollar signs for foreign students, bite off more than they can chew and push everyone students and staff beyond safety, beyond reasonable just get the product out?

But along with that, when another visible minority walks in just like cat, speaks the English language fluently, has the Canadian culture, and isn't an ass hole, people should like working with him and teaching him.

The problem with racism that breaks out in any branch and not just aviation is when the foreigners start to treat the new place they live at as if it's just like home; That's when tolerance goes down, and racism / discrimination commences.

For Example, I've heard that a lot of the Indian guys at a certain school here are very rude with the fuel guys. They request for fuel and are #4, and tell the fuel truck to hurry up cause they are late for their flights. Back home, it may be so that just because so and so calling for fuel is the son of so and so, he get's an exception. That's not genuinely how things are done here.

These same students, show up with 1 bar on their shoulder, all freshed up with bad clone about an hour late for their ground school classes! hmm? It's hard to maintain professionalism but it's doable as an instructor, but I can see why they start to get annoyed.

The trick is, when foreign students come to Canada, they need to aside from learning aviation, try to learn the Canadian culture and adapt with it. And most Canadians give foreigners an adequate time frame for these international students to do so. But when they don't put any effort into it, instructors or anybody else who works with them will also lose interest and treat them with dis-respect, just like the foreigners dis-respect Canadians and don't learn anything other than how to order a Big Mac at Macdonald's, in English.

This is a two way streat in most cases, but I do agree that the instructor's need to also be taught how to deal with it. This sort of reflects back to that old saying of how you have to learn to work with different people in a flight deck.

After all, it's you instructors who send these Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean guys back to their home country's to fly for low cost carriers... and we have seen how many times those carriers have had crashes.

I'm no racist or a discriminatory person. I'm from a visible minority who moved to Canada in 2002. I knew no English. The first thing I got was to hang around white, canadian people. They became my friends, I learned how to speak their language, how to live their culture, and how to be around them. As a result of that, I have no problems. If I have faced some sense of discrimination, I left the person alone, and dealt my business elsewhere. We always have ass holes in this world, racist or not.

[200hr Wonder]

I think discrimination does happen, a lot in fact. A school with students from India, where the instructors have to work 10x as hard to get lessons done, and you see "another brown guy" walk in, the instructors will more than likely treat them the same as the foreign students. Unfortunately I think a lot of it comes from the upper management and is then impressed upon the instructor core. And here is why:

Fact - A student who is ESL with a limited amount of English exposure is going to require significant more time in ground briefings to ensure understanding of each lesson. I can not think of one school that actually gives the extra time.

Result - Instructors give up and just get int he plane and hope people don't kill them selves

Remedy - The students need longer flight blocks. 2hrs for 1.5 flight is not enough for an native English speaker let alone someone who you might have to go significantly slower or over things more than once. A 2.5 to 3hr block is what should be required here. Actually for everyone!

I *hope* and have no proof of this BTW, that a lot of what is being seen is the result of frustration on the instructors part. Not to defend it or say it is professional, but how many of these puppy mills see huge dollar signs for foreign students, bite off more than they can chew and push everyone students and staff beyond safety, beyond reasonable just get the product out?

But along with that, when another visible minority walks in just like cat, speaks the English language fluently, has the Canadian culture, and isn't an ass hole, people should like working with him and teaching him.

The problem with racism that breaks out in any branch and not just aviation is when the foreigners start to treat the new place they live at as if it's just like home; That's when tolerance goes down, and racism / discrimination commences.

For Example, I've heard that a lot of the Indian guys at a certain school here are very rude with the fuel guys. They request for fuel and are #4, and tell the fuel truck to hurry up cause they are late for their flights. Back home, it may be so that just because so and so calling for fuel is the son of so and so, he get's an exception. That's not genuinely how things are done here.

These same students, show up with 1 bar on their shoulder, all freshed up with bad clone about an hour late for their ground school classes! hmm? It's hard to maintain professionalism but it's doable as an instructor, but I can see why they start to get annoyed.

The trick is, when foreign students come to Canada, they need to aside from learning aviation, try to learn the Canadian culture and adapt with it. And most Canadians give foreigners an adequate time frame for these international students to do so. But when they don't put any effort into it, instructors or anybody else who works with them will also lose interest and treat them with dis-respect, just like the foreigners dis-respect Canadians and don't learn anything other than how to order a Big Mac at Macdonald's, in English.

This is a two way streat in most cases, but I do agree that the instructor's need to also be taught how to deal with it. This sort of reflects back to that old saying of how you have to learn to work with different people in a flight deck.

After all, it's you instructors who send these Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean guys back to their home country's to fly for low cost carriers... and we have seen how many times those carriers have had crashes.

I'm no racist or a discriminatory person. I'm from a visible minority who moved to Canada in 2002. I knew no English. The first thing I got was to hang around white, canadian people. They became my friends, I learned how to speak their language, how to live their culture, and how to be around them. As a result of that, I have no problems. If I have faced some sense of discrimination, I left the person alone, and dealt my business elsewhere. We always have ass holes in this world, racist or not.

Great post E-Flyer! It certainly is a two way street, welcome to Canada, celebrate you culture, but please respect your new home too! In Canada, it is first come first serve. In Canada ground school starts on time etc. E-Flyer people like you need to be instructors for these foreign students, because aside from aviation you can help them with integration.

[E-Flyer]

Cheers 200

Yea, what I think would be a good thing for company's to do, especially the one's that have intensive international training is having a 2-3 hour presentation with the instructor's who will be assigned to fly with these foreign students.

For somebody moving to Canada, everything is new and things can be a bit scary. The "Canadian" you as a foreigner will most likely have the most interaction with is your instructor. This instructor in my opinion needs to be a social person, who is able to other than teach a person how to fly, be their friend and help them out with life in Canada. For instance, taking the Indian guy to the bar to watch the hockey game with Mike and Amanda. What's wrong with that? that's the only way this Indian will learn the Canadian culture... by hanging out with us. He may not be very social the first night, but by the 10th night, he/she will pick it up and at least slide a comment or expression in there. It's really impressive to see how motivated these people really are, but since they try to fit in with the wrong attitudes, they fail and give up.

Believe it or not, Canadians are open people ! If you ever hear a foreign person complain about Canadians behavior, it's cause they were never able to properly fit in and most likely didn't put any more effort into bonding with a new society. What they were taught back home is what they conduct here; thus, they ONLY become friends with their own kind, who also failed at bonding.

This foreigner will need to learn English at much higher level anyway if he/she decides to fly internationally, or else we get the funny and yet unsafe condition's like that Air China 747 who didn't know how to taxi at JFK.

[200hr Wonder]

A couple years ago I worked for the YWCA in Calgary teaching the computer component of a class for new immigrants. They had a six or 8 weeks course that showed these people how to function in a Canadian business. They got instruction on everything on how to dress to how to conduct a meeting, job interview skills, how to handle a lunch with colleges. This was aimed at high level people, all where university graduates, some with tonnes of experience in there field, and all of them where working at jobs well below there education/experience level. Why? Because they did not know enough of Canadian customs and behaviors to land a job in a Canadian company. They ended up working for the local greasy Chinese food place or what ever. In this course they held mock meetings, job interviews, luncheons and where instructed on how to do it Canadian. The luncheons where great as everyone brought a dish from home, yum yum All foreign students should spend a good week in a course like this when they first arrive. Some of there social issues are just that they do not know any better! Oh I think the placement with in six weeks of the program for participants at skill appropriate jobs was about 60% - 70%, so it seemed to work!

[Grey_Wolf]

I really like the way the Air Cadet contracts are run. You get say 16 students and they eat sleep live and die as a group. If the foreign students did that it would make life so much easier.

Having been on both sides of the fence (Cadet in 2000, Instructor in 2006); Agreed !!!

The Air Cadet Flying Scholarship Program works because of the student's motivation to be there. These kids are chosen out of hundred and given the scholarship at no cost. That's right folks, these kids give up seven weeks of their summer for a shot at a *FREE* PPL!

(Paid for by the good folks at the DND and the Air Cadet League of Canada. As an aside, back in 2000, it cost the League about 13,500$ to send 1 cadet on the course (the price included lodging, meals, training, and paying the cadet 60$/week while on course. AFAIK here in Ontario, roughly 65 out of 700+ that apply are given the chance to get a PPL at no cost over 7 weeks).

The other point that helps this system work is structure. Briefing and Debreifing are crucial. At any given point, one should as an Instructor be able to report the student's progress, total hours, strengths and weaknesses, and plan to improve thier skills so that they can pass the course. PTR's must be upkept accordingly!

Lastly, many of these students have had previous training over the course of the two previous summers. Which means that by the time they're into their third summer, they have acquired some basics skills and knowledge. Usually the first lessons from Attitudes and Movements up to Spiral Dives (1-14) have been learnt already in the Glider Scholarship Course; the student has only to learn how it applies to a powered aircraft, per say.

Summer 1 = Introduction to Aviation Course (ITAC)
3 week course that goes over a basic/general/introductory PPL ground school
(For those former cadets: I slack, You slack, We all slack for ITAC!)

Summer 2 = Glider Scholarship Course
6 week course that covers the glider ground school, the Radio Ops Certificate, and gets the students a Glider's License

Summer 3 = Power Scholarship Course (PPL)
7 weeks that goves over the already taught PPL ground school but more in depth, and gets the student's a PPL.


IMHO, The only limiting point that washes out a student is their inability to perform at the given pace set by the course.

During the first 3 weeks, the student goes over the ground school and on the 3rd Saturday, they write their PPAER.
Fail it and your sent back home (RTU - Returned to Unit). Partial Pass are on a case basis (since you have to wait 14 days for re-write, that puts the student in week 5 to pass the ground portion)

As for the Flight Training side, each cadet is slotted for 46 hours of training to get their PPL. Most students Solo around 10-15 hours and Flight Test between 38-42 hours. Failed the Flight Test and still have hours remaining? You've got a second chance. Outside of 46 hours? RTU! Unless there are hours remaing from other students that have finished under 46, that you can 'borrow' at the CFI's, Instructor's, and Course Officer's discresion that will allow you to finish.