"Full Load" Checkout

[Big Pistons Forever]

My,my , my the same two people are still not getting it right.

Fact: The average PPL was not done in 30 hrs, 50 yrs ago it was about 45 hrs.

Fact you Big Pistons Forever should at least know what you are talking about before you make a fool of yourself by posting something that is wrong. For your information when I got my PPL in 1953 the minimum time for the PPL was thirty hours and the government gave us back $150.00 for getting the license. Like many of the students during that time I got my PPL in the minimum time, 30 hours.

Fact : The average PPL does not take 100 hrs today it is about 66 hrs.

This is what I said:

to the mind boggling situation we find ourselves in today. Where a student finally gets their PPL with maybe 100 hours of training

You of course can deny that there are cases where they take that long.....did you read the post by Tizz in the flight training forum today?


I did not say the average was 30 hours, I said they were turning out PPL's in 30 hours. You can rant all you want about my attitude but it does not change the fact that the quality of flight instruction in many schools is below par.


Car Driver:

The flight training stats say 50 yrs ago the average PPL too 45 hrs or 50% more hours than the Dept of Transport minimum hour requirement. So if the average is so much higher than the minimum than the inescapable conclusion is that not very many PPL's were being done in 30 hrs.

Don't you just hate it when the facts get in the way of your prejudices....

Oh and guess what, today it still on average takes about 50% longer than the fed minimums to get a PPL.

I guess the good news from yout point of view is the instructors from your era must have been the same quality as the "200hr wonders", "Fu*king morons" ,"imbicles"
and "stupid" flight instructors of today.

Damn and here I vowed to keep my posts upbeat and positive...Oh wait I made a special exception for you Cat Driver

[Cat Driver]

B.P.F. why the overpowering urge to try and paint me as the " Anti Christ " of flight training?

Have we ever met?

[Doc]

BPF......they still take 50% more time to get a PPL? Interesting. Most (at least far more than in the past) pilots are turned out the "Puppy Mills" aka flight colleges. There, the students are more or less "sequestered" and don't live lives outside flight training. And the "average" is still taking 50% longer than the "approved" TC minimums? Interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong here (I know ya will) the minimum requirement used to be 35 hours on an approved course. Is it not 45 hours today? If so, it's actually taking todays students even longer? Are the students slower? Or.........could it be......?

I just looked it up...it is 45 hours. And I know it used to be 35.

[Cat Driver]

And it used to be 30.

[bob sacamano]

And it used to be 30.

During the middle ages, we're talking now.



Oh come on, take a joke people!

This full load subject would be more fun if it were actually about full loads, and how/where to unload it.

[iflyforpie]

It will act more nose heavy, more tail down force is needed due to leverage, higher stall speed.

Try flying a 206 with two people and full fuel (2743lbs for mine). Then fly it with five people and full fuel (3368 lbs). It's the light one that is nose heavy and requires more tail down force. If you come in on a steep approach with full flaps and forward C of G you will probably do some porpoises off the nose wheel because there isn't enough elevator authority.

You are right about the stall speed and I vary my approach speed about 10 MPH between lightly loaded 206 and a full one.

[Cat Driver]

Can anyone put forward a convincing argument that thirty hours was not sufficient time to get the PPL in the early fifties?

[Rudder Bug]

When I was instructing in the seventies, the required time went from 35 to 45 hours. The average canadian student by the early 80's took 63 hours to make it to a PPL. A funny observation back then, my students on the nordo Aeronca Chief with no electrical system and Piper Clipper on skis and floats could solo at 7-8 hours and those on the 150 and the 172 on wheels needed 12-15 hours. Well they had the coms and the nav aids to learn, plus the waiting time on the airport, and etc.
I wonder what's the average time nowadays before a first solo. Is it around 20 hours?

[Big Pistons Forever]

When I was instructing in the seventies, the required time went from 35 to 45 hours. The average canadian student by the early 80's took 63 hours to make it to a PPL. A funny observation back then, my students on the nordo Aeronca Chief with no electrical system and Piper Clipper on skis and floats could solo at 7-8 hours and those on the 150 and the 172 on wheels needed 12-15 hours. Well they had the coms and the nav aids to learn, plus the waiting time on the airport, and etc.
I wonder what's the average time nowadays before a first solo. Is it around 20 hours?

I have to say that I find it hard to believe the average joe could go from zero to safe to solo a taildragger in 7 or 8 hours. By safe to solo I mean they could handle an engine failure at any point in the circuit, fit in with any unexpected traffic that showed up, and manage a change in the wind including the development of a crosswind.
I am sure there are folks who could do it, I just find it difficult to believe that everyone could as you imply in your post. I have trained two PPL's straight through on taildraggers (C120 and 7AC champ). One soloed at about 14 hours, the other at 17. This was a bit later than students I had trained on the C150/C172. However they completed the PPL in about the same time as everyone else. I was not fussed at the extra time to solo as I wanted to make sure they had devloped the feet and hands to control the aircraft under all conditions. There was also no question that they had better stick and rudder skills than students who I had trained on he C152/C172, but it took them a little longer to master those skills due to the fact that taildraggers are a bit more demanding on the takeoff and landing phases, hence the slighly longer time to solo.

I think you have to be carefull about throwing out stats like time to solo. Flight time is a pretty crude proxy for competance. Some folks get it right away others take longer and some will never get even if they get 10000 hrs of training.

From my POV I think the current state of PPL training is OK. Sure it could be better but on balance the PPL course takes you from zero to safe to fly you and your friends on a day VFR trip in a simple aircraft. This standard IMO can be achieved with a low time but reasonably trained instructor as long as he or she is adequately mentored by an experienced supervisor.

The CPL course is a different matter IMO. The current program which is essentially involves redoing the PPL to a slightly higher standard does not IMO do enough to prepare pilots to actually fly the line in a commercial operation, which is why when I tought the CPL I have tried to add texture to the required exercises in ways which require CPL students to think like a line pilot.

[Rudder Bug]

BPF,

Regarding the students going solo at 7-8 hours, I admit I should have say "lots of them" and I recall the Chief and the Clipper were on skis in winter and floats in summer, those were never on wheels hence much easier to learn. My bad.

[Cat Driver]

I have trained two PPL's straight through on taildraggers (C120 and 7AC champ)

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have trained two PPL's straight through on taildraggers (C120 and 7AC champ)

?

[Cat Driver]

Just trying to put things in perspective here B.P.F. gives me a better feel for your experience and background.

You never answered this.

Have we ever met?

[Cat Driver]

having said all this, unless there are truly exceptional circumstances sixty hours is just bloody stupid.

Easy there Clunk, you will end up being blasted by a few of the flight instructors with an attitude like that.

I took 14 hours to solo but did get the license in the 30 hour minimum.

[basher]

[scrambled_legs]

When I first saw this I thought it was a ridiculous money grab, but after hearing about Boundary Bay, I won't be surprised if it becomes a neccessary money grab. Sure getting a student to prove that he can handle a C172 at max gross is about as necessary as getting him to prove he can handle it with a hooker straddling him at 100' AGL, even though we all know hookers should be flown at a minimum of 1,000 AGL. The fact is that all of these ridiculous things that we experience in our day to day lives (ie. warning labels on hot drinks.) is due to a court system that is absolutely defunct with no checks and balances in place. It sucks but until we man up and change it, we have to live with it. Anyone hear about the latest ruling in Gatineau?

Father doesn't know best, court rules in girl's fight to get grounding overruled
From Thursday's Globe and Mail

June 19, 2008 at 4:05 AM EDT

First, the father banned his 12-year-old daughter from going online after she posted photos of herself on a dating site. Then she allegedly had a row with her stepmother, so the father said his girl couldn't go on a school trip.

The girl took the matter to the court - and won what lawyers say was an unprecedented judgment.

Madam Justice Suzanne Tessier of the Quebec Superior Court ruled on Friday that the father couldn't discipline his daughter by barring her from the school trip.

Um... better buck up and get those students training on their max gross landings. I would still be holding my breath if I was that flight training school in ZBB.

[Doc]

If my daughter went to court over something like that, I'd be moving her room out to the garage.

And "no more steaks for you..."

[BoostedNihilist]

I have trained two PPL's straight through on taildraggers (C120 and 7AC champ)

wow, those are some seriously huge numbers

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have trained two PPL's straight through on taildraggers (C120 and 7AC champ)

wow, those are some seriously huge numbers

Actually I have trained 32 students for the PPL and CPL. Every one passed their ride on the first try. In fact everyone I have recommended for TC rides which also including Multi, IFR, Multi IFR, Instructor, and Aerobatic Instructor passed on their first try, although I will admit a few were in doubt untill the bitter end

I would bet that actually doing a PPL on a taildragger is probably becoming fairly rare, but it sure was a lot of fun

BoostedNihilist : How many students have you trained ?

[scrambled_legs]

Boosted is still working on his first solo but he's got 1,000's of hours of self ego stroking to make up for it.

[joco]

... unless there are truly exceptional circumstances sixty hours is just bloody stupid.

I did my PPL on a part time basis during 2002-2003 in YHM. It was at the time that WJ used YHM as their base. I could not tell you how many hours of the 62 at which I passed the exam were spent in taxing, hold short this and that, orbit please... WJ inboud and the list goes on.
However doing it in YHM the price of some extra hours, exposed me to the control zone environment, which I am thankful for.

How many PPL are earned at smaller fields in less than 60 hours today, yet the young holders are terrified to entering a control zone? or take a trip by CN twr?

Edit: solo was at 12hrs.

Signed: me.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Actually I am now a bit embarrassed by my reply to BoostedNihilist; it smacks of boasting, which I do not like to do. I prefer to be judged on the quality and value of my posts. I do not think you can fake expereince and I certainly pay more attention to some posters over others. By virtue of what they write it is obvious to me they must have significant experience.

I guess posting is just like flying. Don't do it if you are in a hurry or mad

[Doc]

BPF, don't worry about it....we all hit "submit" the odd time when maybe we shouldn't have.

[bob sacamano]

First people bash instructors, then the same people come on here and talk about how many students they've trained.

WTF over?!?!?!

[BoostedNihilist]

Boosted is still working on his first solo but he's got 1,000's of hours of self ego stroking to make up for it.

Yeah, and I'm perfect at it

BoostedNihilist : How many students have you trained ?

0 Not my racket. I do this flying stuff for fun.

I would bet that actually doing a PPL on a taildragger is probably becoming fairly rare, but it sure was a lot of fun

Yes, it is

Actually I am now a bit embarrassed by my reply to BoostedNihilist; it smacks of boasting, which I do not like to do. I prefer to be judged on the quality and value of my posts. I do not think you can fake expereince and I certainly pay more attention to some posters over others. By virtue of what they write it is obvious to me they must have significant experience.

That was boasting? That was some very lame boasting. Certainly you should no longer boast based purely on the fact that you simply do not have anything to boast about, not to metion the ability to execute a proper boast.

I guess posting is just like flying. Don't do it if you are in a hurry or mad

Were you mad? lol.. Come on man, this is the internet!

Personally, I will never post anything I am not willing to either back up or take responsibility for. Mad, hurry or otherwise my opinion is my opinion and I say exactly what I mean. Thanks for laying your stats out there, at least now I know exactly where you're coming from.