We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
approx -12c @5000 asl I think.( it was back in '93) Don't give me shite for doing something that might have been predictable. My instructor said cage it ...
When a pilot makes a mistake...the pilot dies.
When an air traffic contoller makes a mistake...the pilot dies.
When an air traffic contoller makes a mistake...the pilot dies.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
After my first ( and last I can assure you) totally unnecessary single engine emergency landing caused by following the TC mandate for in flight feathering demonstrations, I called the tech rep at Lycoming. It turns out that there is no certification requirement that the engine be able to restart in flight 
. He went on to say that a carburated engine is not designed to start with a 120 + kt wind blowing down its induction system and he was very surprised at the fact that we were actually required to so this exercise, which he thought was " ill advised ".
. He went on to say that a carburated engine is not designed to start with a 120 + kt wind blowing down its induction system and he was very surprised at the fact that we were actually required to so this exercise, which he thought was " ill advised ".-
Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Thanks for the answer timbob, and it would serve no useful purpose to give you shit because I'm sure that by now you understand the stupidity of feathering a small piston engine at those temperatures and expecting it to restart without any problems. Not to mention the thermal shock that you are putting the engine through.approx -12c @5000 asl I think.( it was back in '93) Don't give me shite for doing something that might have been predictable. My instructor said cage it ...
Now I would once again like to take the opportunity to council all you young instructors to refuse to be intimidated by TC into creating a possible emergency where no emergency existed by feathering these piston engine airplanes just to prove they will feather......
I am surprised they don't require you to fire off the fire extinguisher bottles on the larger engines to demonstrate how effective they are.
Do what I did, send a registered letter to the head of flight training and ask him for a letter with his signature that demands you do a complete shut down and feather when giving multi engine dual...tell him you need the letter for your lawyer to sue him if anything goes wrong.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Cat Driver, I think my instuctor knew full well that restart problems were indeed likely.He didn't want the engine down for long and it wasn't. What I think IS stupid was the the FTU knew full well that engines were being shut down in winter but still kept the policy. Perhaps they thought it was mandated by TC.
He must of been doing something right as the DFTE said my simulated engine out overshoot @ altitude was about the best he had ever seen. But then again that cold December air would help anyone look good.
He must of been doing something right as the DFTE said my simulated engine out overshoot @ altitude was about the best he had ever seen. But then again that cold December air would help anyone look good.
When a pilot makes a mistake...the pilot dies.
When an air traffic contoller makes a mistake...the pilot dies.
When an air traffic contoller makes a mistake...the pilot dies.
Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
I've shut down two piston engine trainers. An Apache, and an Aztec. Neither would restart. The bloody Apache even failed to feather. That was fun! Instructors.....do not do this. TC has actually killed some of their own people during in-flight shut downs during training. A certain Twin Otter incident near YHM leaps to mind. And these are the guys who tell YOU how to train?? I'd be interested to hear from instructors working at the colleges on the subject? I can't imagine an operation like Seneca College taking the risk. Way more dangerous than a six know cross wind. Take MY word for it, an Apache with an unfeathered prop is a BITCH!
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Doc, I generally don't think polls prove much....but can you start one asking how many FTU's do full shut downs and feathering during training
And ask why.
And ask why.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
I back this one completely.
Anyone who has been through SMS training knows that TC believes we should be doing constant "risk analysis" to determine what risks are acceptable and which are not (which I believe in wholeheartedly - the ideals that is).
I find it ironic that running the engine shutdown through this very process shows pretty clearly that in a risk-benefit analysis the potential benefits, if any, lose out to the dangers associated with the practice. It really is overdue for TC to drop this potentially dangerous procedure altogether.
I did them as an instructor and never liked them. Eventually I refused to do it, after a fellow instructor landed twice with an engine failed after not being able to start back up. F$ck that...I'm not playing...
Anyone who has been through SMS training knows that TC believes we should be doing constant "risk analysis" to determine what risks are acceptable and which are not (which I believe in wholeheartedly - the ideals that is).
I find it ironic that running the engine shutdown through this very process shows pretty clearly that in a risk-benefit analysis the potential benefits, if any, lose out to the dangers associated with the practice. It really is overdue for TC to drop this potentially dangerous procedure altogether.
I did them as an instructor and never liked them. Eventually I refused to do it, after a fellow instructor landed twice with an engine failed after not being able to start back up. F$ck that...I'm not playing...
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Exactly.....I fail to see " ANY " benefit to deliberately shutting down and feathering an engine in these low performance light twins.....what possible benefit is there to cutting your performance by 80% to demonstrate something you can demonstrate with the throttle and know you can recover the power quickly if it starts to go down hill.I find it ironic that running the engine shutdown through this very process shows pretty clearly that in a risk-benefit analysis the potential benefits, if any, lose out to the dangers associated with the practice.
What is needed is a lawsuit against TC's flight training department to force them to drop this requirement.It really is overdue for TC to drop this potentially dangerous procedure altogether.
They have had this moronic requirement for decades and never admitted it was a very flawed policy.
One of my friends survived Castro's jails in Cuba. He came back to Canada and went to work for TC and died in a Twin Commanche doing a flight test with an engine feathered...they spun in in procedure turn.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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middle marker
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
I dunno guys,
I've been in this game since 1958 and still active.. We used to believe that you needed to experiernce the condition in order to understand it and learn...Ummm.
Yes, I had to shut down and secure engine in flight in an Apache and restart it during my training. A maginal aircraft on one engine at its best. But not on the ride. Simulated only. Thank you! (BTW, 5 hours including the ride.)
I thought at the time that it was a risky thing to do. (Shut a really good engine down in flight.) It went against all the rules that I learned from all those retired WW11 training pilots that were teaching us then. Two Air Canada Captains died doing this, (shutting one down in an Apache) out of Pit Meadows about the same time. they were just playing around for god sake!
We have simulators to teach our people now. CAE, Flight Safety, Simulfight, etal.
Someone can make a lot of money by manufacturing a generic piston simulator to do all the things needed to make a pilot safe and confident..Come on CAE, do you stuff!
About the Apache..It was good training for the DC3 as both aircraft need to be flown with good airspeed and roll control to achieve published performance.
BTW, I have had 5 engine failures in my career, three of those on take off. Thank you Flight Safety and Grumman!
I know , I know.... Syntax, no soup for me!
I've been in this game since 1958 and still active.. We used to believe that you needed to experiernce the condition in order to understand it and learn...Ummm.
Yes, I had to shut down and secure engine in flight in an Apache and restart it during my training. A maginal aircraft on one engine at its best. But not on the ride. Simulated only. Thank you! (BTW, 5 hours including the ride.)
I thought at the time that it was a risky thing to do. (Shut a really good engine down in flight.) It went against all the rules that I learned from all those retired WW11 training pilots that were teaching us then. Two Air Canada Captains died doing this, (shutting one down in an Apache) out of Pit Meadows about the same time. they were just playing around for god sake!
We have simulators to teach our people now. CAE, Flight Safety, Simulfight, etal.
Someone can make a lot of money by manufacturing a generic piston simulator to do all the things needed to make a pilot safe and confident..Come on CAE, do you stuff!
About the Apache..It was good training for the DC3 as both aircraft need to be flown with good airspeed and roll control to achieve published performance.
BTW, I have had 5 engine failures in my career, three of those on take off. Thank you Flight Safety and Grumman!
I know , I know.... Syntax, no soup for me!
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Where did that misguided opinion come from?I've been in this game since 1958 and still active.. We used to believe that you needed to experiernce the condition in order to understand it and learn...Ummm.
The truth is you can learn more about single engine performance by demonstrating the lesson with the use of the throttle.....you can show not only how it performs at zero thrust ( simulated feather ) but you can also experience the effect of a windmilling prop and anything in between.
Here is a question for the training industry, how do you demonstrate a run away propeller?
I have seen the results of one in Great Whale River when CF-AAD became a tree cutter but never actually experienced one.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
You cannot of course deliberately cause an over speed in training however you can simulate the initial indications of a prop over speed by waiting for the student to be looking away and smoothly push one prop lever from cruise to full fine and then ask the student what just happened. They will hopefully recognize the sudden unsyncronized prop noise and start carrying out the overspeed drill. Another demonstration I like is if the student doesn't sync the props in cruise sneak one of the prop levers very slowly back. You can get a significant underspeed going (most lycoming engines will allow RPM's as low as 2000 RPM at cruise MPs) and have the student sitting quite oblivious. 
I will also rock the prop lever a bit to show what an unstable or hunting engine sounds and looks like. I would say the chance of a uncontollable prop over/underspeed occuring out of the blue is low. It is IMO much more likely to be preceeded by RPM hunting. Ths should never be ignored and should generate an immediate and carefull examination of the engine guages, starting with any change in oil pressure.
The one part of typical multi training which I do not really like is the training drills are almost invariably initiated by simulating a sudden and total engine failure. How ever in the real world a surging or partial engine failure is IMO actually more likely. A surging engine can be quite confusing as the airplane will yaw back and forth as the engine cuts in and out, making aircraft control and early identification more difficult than if the engine simply dies. I simulate this by covering the throttle quadrant with my clip board and continuously rocking the throttle back and forth untill the students completes his drills.
I will also rock the prop lever a bit to show what an unstable or hunting engine sounds and looks like. I would say the chance of a uncontollable prop over/underspeed occuring out of the blue is low. It is IMO much more likely to be preceeded by RPM hunting. Ths should never be ignored and should generate an immediate and carefull examination of the engine guages, starting with any change in oil pressure.The one part of typical multi training which I do not really like is the training drills are almost invariably initiated by simulating a sudden and total engine failure. How ever in the real world a surging or partial engine failure is IMO actually more likely. A surging engine can be quite confusing as the airplane will yaw back and forth as the engine cuts in and out, making aircraft control and early identification more difficult than if the engine simply dies. I simulate this by covering the throttle quadrant with my clip board and continuously rocking the throttle back and forth untill the students completes his drills.
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
The situation that I was referring to was a run away prop where the prop becomes disconnected from the engine through a failed nose case or a broken crank shaft resulting in a prop that is free spinning and becomes a giant air brake that you have no control over.
The only control you have is reducing speed and hoping you can maintain directional control before you stall, spin.
The only control you have is reducing speed and hoping you can maintain directional control before you stall, spin.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
How do you demonstrate this condition when you do Canso type rating training ?Cat Driver wrote:
Here is a question for the training industry, how do you demonstrate a run away propeller?
.
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Here is a question for the training industry, how do you demonstrate a run away propeller?
You can't.
How do you demonstrate this condition when you do Canso type rating training ?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Back to the discussion of hours taken during training. I did the multi-IFR this winter/spring at Pro at ZBB. I had about 12 hours before taking the multi checkride. This was entirely due to me wanting to be very confident, so I did more flights than may have been necessary. Whatever; that's the way I like it, and I was under no pressure by the school. The multi checkride went very well, mostly 4's. Then I did extra flights before the IFR ride as well until I had had all kinds of things thrown at me to the point where I felt confident to handle anything, including about 6 hours actual IMC. I lost one point on that ride, so I am glad I was able to afford to do it this way.
randall g =%^)> C-GTUM - 1974 Cardinal RG - CZBB
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
So why did you ask the question ?Cat Driver wrote:Here is a question for the training industry, how do you demonstrate a run away propeller?You can't.
How do you demonstrate this condition when you do Canso type rating training ?
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
I was being facetious.So why did you ask the question ?
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fa·ce·tious Audio Help /fəˈsiʃəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fuh-see-shuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2. amusing; humorous.
3. lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person
I did not think anyone would miss the obvious fact that there is no way to simulate a free wheeling prop.
At least there is no way that I know of.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
No need to stick your head in boiling water to see and feel the danger.
The advantage of simulator training is self-evident.
To shut down a healthy engine in flight is stupid.The shock cooling alone should ban it .Nevermind the other risks.
What next actual VMC demonstrations ??? with one engine feathered ??? I am old enough to have seen a plane with a bent tail after some instructors brought back a twin they had spun after a VMC demo went wrong .They were lucky they just got themselves fired .The VMC demostrations were removed from the multi-rides after that .Although some designated examiners would simulate VMC being reached by limitinting rudder travel.
To try that crap without a parachute and jetesionable door is careless and reckless .Wannabe a test pilot ?
Follow the test pilot examples of extreme prejudice before each flight .Their is a difference between nice to know and need to do .
The advantage of simulator training is self-evident.
To shut down a healthy engine in flight is stupid.The shock cooling alone should ban it .Nevermind the other risks.
What next actual VMC demonstrations ??? with one engine feathered ??? I am old enough to have seen a plane with a bent tail after some instructors brought back a twin they had spun after a VMC demo went wrong .They were lucky they just got themselves fired .The VMC demostrations were removed from the multi-rides after that .Although some designated examiners would simulate VMC being reached by limitinting rudder travel.
To try that crap without a parachute and jetesionable door is careless and reckless .Wannabe a test pilot ?
Follow the test pilot examples of extreme prejudice before each flight .Their is a difference between nice to know and need to do .
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
2R:
So far there seems to be a consensus here that TC's policy of feathering engines in flight for the purpose of training for the multi engine rating is a flawed policy at best and dangerous at worse............
............so how come after all these decades TC does not change their policy?
Can anyone explain this?
I know that there are many TC types reading this so please can one of you educate us?
So far there seems to be a consensus here that TC's policy of feathering engines in flight for the purpose of training for the multi engine rating is a flawed policy at best and dangerous at worse............
............so how come after all these decades TC does not change their policy?
Can anyone explain this?
I know that there are many TC types reading this so please can one of you educate us?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Cat DriverCat Driver wrote:I was being facetious.So why did you ask the question ?
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fa·ce·tious Audio Help /fəˈsiʃəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fuh-see-shuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2. amusing; humorous.
3. lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person
I did not think anyone would miss the obvious fact that there is no way to simulate a free wheeling prop.
At least there is no way that I know of.
As yu accurately note , a runaway prop is being in a position where you cannot do anything except hope that you have enough rudder authority to maintain some sort of control as you frantically look for some place to make a survivable crash landing in an aircraft that will not maintain level flight due to the enormous drag of the prop. I personnally don't find thinking about that very "amusing" or "concerned with something non essential". Oh and by the way the P&W R2800 manual defines a runaway prop as any situation where the prop exceeds redline RPM and cannot be controlled. A reduction gearing failure which disconnects the prop is only one cause of this condition. Loss of nose case oil pressure or a failure in the prop dome will also result in a runaway prop... but you knew that right.
The part I still do not understand is what do you get out of posts that specifically ask instructors for their opinion and then blow them off when they actually give you an answer ?
Sadly the number of large piston multiengine aircraft is steadily diminishing and with it the incomparable rewards and challenges of operating some really neat machinery
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
I really don't know what I said in this thread that makes you think I am " blowing off " anyone here, however it would seem that regardless of what I post you will take it as a personal affront.The part I still do not understand is what do you get out of posts that specifically ask instructors for their opinion and then blow them off when they actually give you an answer ?
So lets make this simple.
I will try not reply to any thread you post in from now on so as not to upset you.
You never did answer my question when I asked you if you have met me.
I think I have a fair understanding of the mechanical workings of airplanes, but I am not about to get into a who knows more pissing match with you as it would not be of any real value.Loss of nose case oil pressure or a failure in the prop dome will also result in a runaway prop... but you knew that right.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Cat Driver:
Reply or not that is your decision and frankly I do not much care either way.
Although on at least seven occasions you also promised not to post anything on flight training, I don't expect your promise to "not upset" me is going to last very long....but I say again I do not much care one way or the other.
I intend to continue to post wth specific ideas and techniques that I feel have made me a more effective instructor. I hope that the folks browsing this board may find some of the hints usefull but at the end of the day every reader, including obviously yourself, will decide for themselves and comment accordingly.
Moderators: I think this thread would be more suited to the flight training forum
Reply or not that is your decision and frankly I do not much care either way.
Although on at least seven occasions you also promised not to post anything on flight training, I don't expect your promise to "not upset" me is going to last very long....but I say again I do not much care one way or the other.
I intend to continue to post wth specific ideas and techniques that I feel have made me a more effective instructor. I hope that the folks browsing this board may find some of the hints usefull but at the end of the day every reader, including obviously yourself, will decide for themselves and comment accordingly.
Moderators: I think this thread would be more suited to the flight training forum
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
BPF, I have quit posting in the flight training forum except in the thead you started bitching about me dissing flight instructors.
As to this thread being moved to the flight training forum why should it be moved...why not start your own thread like I did here.
Why won't you answer my question about if we have met?
As to this thread being moved to the flight training forum why should it be moved...why not start your own thread like I did here.
Why won't you answer my question about if we have met?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
I don't want it moved, but go ahead if you want, then at least I will know that I should be careful about making any comments about flying so as not to upset some of the flight instructors here.
Moderators: I think this thread would be more suited to the flight training forum
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: We have trashed the full load thing....now lets do this one
Moderators
I made the suggeston to move this thread to the flight training forum because the topic of the primary thread, training for the multi rating, seemed more appropriate to that forum. Also this topic is also being discussed in a flight training forum thread so it seemed logical to have the discussion occuring in one place. However Cat Driver doesn't want it moved so I guess it should stay. I retract my request to move this thread.
I made the suggeston to move this thread to the flight training forum because the topic of the primary thread, training for the multi rating, seemed more appropriate to that forum. Also this topic is also being discussed in a flight training forum thread so it seemed logical to have the discussion occuring in one place. However Cat Driver doesn't want it moved so I guess it should stay. I retract my request to move this thread.
