Calling all "engineers"

[BoostedNihilist]

Quoting CID here, this is 100% correct.
"Here's another relevant question. Do you have an SCA for avionics components? An AMO? CAMC membership? ASET membership?What qualifies you to touch my airplane or avionics components? What qualifies you to call yourself an "Avionics Technician"?

Isn't an "avionics technician" really an AME 'E' ?

[dashx]

Isn't the english language just wonderful?

OI!

[azimuthaviation]

The difference between an AME and a P. Eng is pretty minute. A P. Eng needs honours standings in the maths and sciences in high school, 4 years minimum of university training (typical success rate is 33 - 50%), years in the field to attain the credentials of a P. Eng and constant work to keep his standing valid. An AME requires to pass high school (a requirement for MOST schools but not by transport canada), has to have a logbook filled out (everything from changing oil to adding air to a tire), and must reach the age of 21. So really the two are basically equivelent.

[phred]

I've been reading this one and the similar thread on what we call ourselves. Pilots in our facility call us engineers I still know what I am. Yup I'm an AME and no I do not have the qualifications for the job you posted. I'm happy right where I am thanks. Now Strega you keep using statements like "the only beef I have is when AME's call themselves "engineers", and, "I agree with you 100%, my problem is with some AMEs that seem to think they are gods gift to everything", also in the other thread you said something like AME's wanting to make themselves something bigger or better than they are. Wow you really like yourself alot huh. I see your point on it but let it go man. Education is a great thing I'm glad you have one good for you now come down off that pedestal before your head gets too big and ya fall and hurt yourself.

[C23flyer]

The difference between an AME and a P. Eng is pretty minute. A P. Eng needs honours standings in the maths and sciences in high school, 4 years minimum of university training (typical success rate is 33 - 50%), years in the field to attain the credentials of a P. Eng and constant work to keep his standing valid. An AME requires to pass high school (a requirement for MOST schools but not by transport canada), has to have a logbook filled out (everything from changing oil to adding air to a tire), and must reach the age of 21. So really the two are basically equivelent.

You're supposed to use one of these when you make a funny.

[bombardierfixer]

Basically this all comes down to respect, I spent 4 years and a lot of money to get my AME license. Now the designation of AME has been given to us by the federal government, not a professional organization. I have the M2 designation and I have not had the pleasure of being in the GA community, where I think a lot of this debate is coming from. The only person that has been given the privilege of signing a maintenance release is a AME. Every time I put my name and stamp on that line I make a public declaration to the airworthiness of that aircraft. I don’t understand why people get so bent out of shape about the title, all my friends are engineers and p.Eng they don’t try to take away my title, they understand the awesome responsibility we have to ensure the safety of the people who fly in and operate that aircraft.
Now I know that I am not a professional engineer and I would never try to act like one. If you are a pilot and you don’t respect your AME then shame on you. If you are a AME and don’t respect your crew then shame on you. Pilots bust the asses flying all day, you need to stay alert and do their job in all conditions and weather. AME’s bust their asses to keep the planes in the air, working illegally long days with-out food or sleep.
I don’t think because we have a wrench in our hands means we don’t deserve respect, remember the most important tool in the box is your pen, it makes things fly and it keeps things on the ground. And by respect I mean calling us by what we are AME’s.

[Strega]

Basically this all comes down to respect, I spent 4 years and a lot of money to get my AME license. Now the designation of AME has been given to us by the federal government, not a professional organization. I have the M2 designation and I have not had the pleasure of being in the GA community, where I think a lot of this debate is coming from. The only person that has been given the privilege of signing a maintenance release is a AME. Every time I put my name and stamp on that line I make a public declaration to the airworthiness of that aircraft. I don’t understand why people get so bent out of shape about the title, all my friends are engineers and p.Eng they don’t try to take away my title, they understand the awesome responsibility we have to ensure the safety of the people who fly in and operate that aircraft.
Now I know that I am not a professional engineer and I would never try to act like one. If you are a pilot and you don’t respect your AME then shame on you. If you are a AME and don’t respect your crew then shame on you. Pilots bust the asses flying all day, you need to stay alert and do their job in all conditions and weather. AME’s bust their asses to keep the planes in the air, working illegally long days with-out food or sleep.
I don’t think because we have a wrench in our hands means we don’t deserve respect, remember the most important tool in the box is your pen, it makes things fly and it keeps things on the ground. And by respect I mean calling us by what we are AME’s.

nice

[azimuthaviation]

"awesome responsibility"?? "long days without food or sleep"?? "priveledge" of signing a maintenance release?? pretty intense wouldnt u think?

[Bulawrench]

Basically this all comes down to respect, I spent 4 years and a lot of money to get my AME license. Now the designation of AME has been given to us by the federal government, not a professional organization. I have the M2 designation and I have not had the pleasure of being in the GA community, where I think a lot of this debate is coming from. The only person that has been given the privilege of signing a maintenance release is a AME. Every time I put my name and stamp on that line I make a public declaration to the airworthiness of that aircraft. I don’t understand why people get so bent out of shape about the title, all my friends are engineers and p.Eng they don’t try to take away my title, they understand the awesome responsibility we have to ensure the safety of the people who fly in and operate that aircraft.
Now I know that I am not a professional engineer and I would never try to act like one. If you are a pilot and you don’t respect your AME then shame on you. If you are a AME and don’t respect your crew then shame on you. Pilots bust the asses flying all day, you need to stay alert and do their job in all conditions and weather. AME’s bust their asses to keep the planes in the air, working illegally long days with-out food or sleep.
I don’t think because we have a wrench in our hands means we don’t deserve respect, remember the most important tool in the box is your pen, it makes things fly and it keeps things on the ground. And by respect I mean calling us by what we are AME’s.

Thank you for pointing out the real truth.
Maybe AME's could have a ring on their middle finger for a reminder
of one arrogant ass@#@le

[ottopilot]

Strega,

Sounds like the lame arguement of a 150hr pilot. If your a pilot with some "multi-pic" time do you apply for a job flying the space shuttle? No? really? Why? Maybe some common sense should be applied? I am an M1/M2 AME (aircraft maintenance ENGINEER), I work with aerospace engineers (P Eng) every day and they are pretty clear that they cannot do all of my job and I cannot do all of theirs. Some of the guys in my field call them artists because they draw up the stuff that we actually have to make work and tell them how to design sometimes.

All in all, or original post was stupid!
Have a great day!

[AuxBatOn]

Strega,

Sounds like the lame arguement of a 150hr pilot. If your a pilot with some "multi-pic" time do you apply for a job flying the space shuttle? No? really? Why? Maybe some common sense should be applied? I am an M1/M2 AME (aircraft maintenance ENGINEER), I work with aerospace engineers (P Eng) every day and they are pretty clear that they cannot do all of my job and I cannot do all of theirs. Some of the guys in my field call them artists because they draw up the stuff that we actually have to make work and tell them how to design sometimes.
All in all, or original post was stupid!
Have a great day!

First, I, in no way, agree with what Strega says. I don't care how people call themselve. But to the bolded statement, I would say that even though you assist the P. Eng to design something, in the end he's the one signing the documents for liability. If something happens and people die because of a design flaw, he will be the one sued and charged, not the technicians/engineers.

AuxBatOn

[Strega]

All you "engineers" should sign up. considering you are "engineers"

http://www.peo.on.ca/Applications/PENGLicence08.pdf

[Strega]

More reading for you:

Q34: Do you need to be licensed to working in the field of engineering in Ontario?
A: As with medicine and law, you require a licence to do certain engineering work within the province of Ontario. However, not everyone working in engineering requires a licence. Whether you require a licence depends on the type of engineering work you are doing, and the level of responsibility you have.The ability to practise engineering in Ontario is regulated by the Ontario Professional Engineers Act and its regulations,which outline who requires a licence, how to obtain a licence, and when a licence may be revoked. The Act is administered by Professional Engineers Ontario (PEO), a self-governing organization that grants licences to qualified individuals, disciplines licence holders who are found guilty of incompetence or misconduct, and enforces compliance with the licensing requirements of the Act. You require a license if:
- your work requires you to design, compose, evaluate, advise, report, direct or supervise; and
- the work will safeguard life, health, property or the public welfare; and
- the work requires the application of engineering principles.

You are not required to be licensed if, for example:
- your work is strictly related to research, testing, or inspection; or
- there is no risk to life, health, property or the public welfare if your work is performed incorrectly; or
- the work is strictly scientific in nature.
There are also other exceptions to licensure in the Act:
- You do not need to be licensed to do professional engineering if a licensed Ontario professional engineer takes responsibility for your work.
- You may do professional engineering relating to your employer’s machinery and equipment used on your employer’s premises (other than structural equipment) without holding a licence.
- You do not need a licence to design tools and dies.

[BoostedNihilist]

con·text Audio Help /ˈkɒntɛkst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-tekst] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
2. the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
3. Mycology. the fleshy fibrous body of the pileus in mushrooms.

[AuxBatOn]

All you "engineers" should sign up. considering you are "engineers"

http://www.peo.on.ca/Applications/PENGLicence08.pdf

That is to be a Professionnal Engineer, to be member of the order and, by that fact, be allowed to sign on some types of work. Engineer is just a word Strega, get over it. If you need people to tell you you're God's gift to the Universe because you are an "Engineer" then sure, all the AMEs are mechanics and you're above God.

FYI, I'm a P. Eng and I couldn't give a crap what

1- People call me (Engineer, Designer, Clown). I know what I would do if I was practicing, what I'd be allowed to do and I don't need a title to remind me of this.

2- People can call themselve what they want. And actually, Engineer for an AME is correct as they do work with machines.

Seriously, get over it....

[Strega]

All you "engineers" should sign up. considering you are "engineers"

http://www.peo.on.ca/Applications/PENGLicence08.pdf

That is to be a Professionnal Engineer, to be member of the order and, by that fact, be allowed to sign on some types of work. Engineer is just a word Strega, get over it. If you need people to tell you you're God's gift to the Universe because you are an "Engineer" then sure, all the AMEs are mechanics and you're above God.

FYI, I'm a P. Eng and I couldn't give a crap what

1- People call me (Engineer, Designer, Clown). I know what I would do if I was practicing, what I'd be allowed to do and I don't need a title to remind me of this.

2- People can call themselve what they want. And actually, Engineer for an AME is correct as they do work with machines.

Seriously, get over it....

sure, and Im an AME

[AuxBatOn]

All you "engineers" should sign up. considering you are "engineers"

http://www.peo.on.ca/Applications/PENGLicence08.pdf

That is to be a Professionnal Engineer, to be member of the order and, by that fact, be allowed to sign on some types of work. Engineer is just a word Strega, get over it. If you need people to tell you you're God's gift to the Universe because you are an "Engineer" then sure, all the AMEs are mechanics and you're above God.

FYI, I'm a P. Eng and I couldn't give a crap what

1- People call me (Engineer, Designer, Clown). I know what I would do if I was practicing, what I'd be allowed to do and I don't need a title to remind me of this.

2- People can call themselve what they want. And actually, Engineer for an AME is correct as they do work with machines.

Seriously, get over it....

sure, and Im an AME

So, why are you making such a big deal this minute semantic nuance?

[small penguin]

Actually I have a question. To the AME's that consider themselves engineers (not just because the title says so), do you consider a car mechanic an engineer as well, or just a mechanic?

[Hedley]

zzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz

[Meecka]

Strega, pull the pickle out of your butt. Your breath is starting to smell like dill. Who really cares about this!? As long as someone doesn't go around calling you a foul piece of human refuse, don't sweat it.

[Strega]

Actually I have a question. To the AME's that consider themselves engineers (not just because the title says so), do you consider a car mechanic an engineer as well, or just a mechanic?

theres a good question!

[BoostedNihilist]

en·gi·neer Audio Help /ˌɛndʒəˈnɪər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[en-juh-neer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person trained and skilled in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines, or in any of various branches of engineering: a mechanical engineer; a civil engineer.
2. a person who operates or is in charge of an engine.
3. Also called locomotive engineer. Railroads. a person who operates or is in charge of a locomotive.
4. a member of an army, navy, or air force specially trained in engineering work.
5. a skillful manager: a political engineer.
–verb (used with object) 6. to plan, construct, or manage as an engineer: He's engineered several big industrial projects.
7. to design or create using the techniques or methods of engineering: The motor has been engineered to run noiselessly.
8. to arrange, manage, or carry through by skillful or artful contrivance: He certainly engineered the election campaign beautifully.

con·text Audio Help /ˈkɒntɛkst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-tekst] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
2. the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
3. Mycology. the fleshy fibrous body of the pileus in mushrooms.

se·man·tics Audio Help /sɪˈmæntɪks/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[si-man-tiks] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun (used with a singular verb) 1. Linguistics. a. the study of meaning.
b. the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.

2. Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.
3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.
4. general semantics.

lin·guis·tics Audio Help /lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ling-gwis-tiks] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun (used with a singular verb) the science of language, including phonetics, phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics, pragmatics, and historical linguistics.

Yes, a car mechanic falls under the definition of an engineer.

Strega, what is your hard on over this issue? Clearly an AME falls under the definition of the word engineer, to deny this is

ig·no·rant Audio Help /ˈɪgnərənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ig-ner-uhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

[Strega]

so then by your own admission, all you "engineers" are not professional?

[BoostedNihilist]

Strega, you're going to love me for this

pro·fes·sion·al Audio Help /prəˈfɛʃənl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
–noun
10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

Get the point?

[AuxBatOn]

so then by your own admission, all you "engineers" are not professional?

The P. Eng is nothing more than an association that regulates the work of their members. Period. I'm not saying that AMEs aren't professionnals. Just stating that Professionnal Enginneers (as in P. Eng) are member of an association.

AuxBatOn