HARV'S AIR SHUT DOWN!

[Flyin' Hi]

Does anyone know any of the details on what happened with Harv's Air? The word in the air is that TC shut them down.

Anyone have any inside info on what happened, and what the effect will be on the cadets that are there?

[MyMeowCat]

OH MY GOD!!!

I've always heard good things about them. I took their ground online ground-school and it was the best dollar I spent in training and they won my respect.

How the hell can TC shut them down instead of the place I was at??

This has to be bogus!

Tell me it ain't so!

WTF!!

[ski_bum]

Any info would be appreciated...

[skywardbound]

From their website:

During a routine maintenance audit, clerical/paperwork errors where found. To ensure that all airworthiness directives have been complied with we have voluntarily grounded all of the airplanes. Airplanes will be returned to service incrementally after we ensure all paperwork and inspections have been completed. We are very sorry for the inconvenience and expect to be back flying very shortly.

[Flyin' Hi]

"voluntarily grounded all of the airplanes"

I find that hard to believe, especially during a time when they have air cadets there trying to obtain a license on such a tight time period.

They are probably just trying to save thier reputation, and make it look like they chose to ground the planes themselves, rather than have everyone find out that transport grounded them, cause that could really hurt business!

[Strega]

What did they do (or not do) to have this action taken?
Kinda sounds like something a bit fishy to me, tracking AD's and SB's on C-172s is really not that difficult..

[Hedley]

tracking AD's and SB's ... is really not that difficult

With one aircraft, it's easy. However, with a LOT of
aircraft, at a larger school, it's easy to make a paperwork
gaff.

Miscellaneous AD's, which might be applicable to some
aircraft but not others, depending upon which accessories
and avionics are installed, are a good example of this, esp
when parts start getting swapped around from aircraft
to aircraft.

[youngtimer]

Big fleet, small maintenance department and a few small paperwork errors can wreak havoc on any operation, as it throws everything into question. It could be actual maintenance practices or simply bookkeeping errors, either/or transport takes both to be serious, and I've seen how anal/ludicrous they can be about how you enter a maintenance item into a logbook. It's been nearly 10 years since I did my multi-IFR at Harv's and I had an excellent experience and topnotch service but I did note at the time that they needed a much larger maintenance staff and facilities. I know they have moved since I was last there and that things will have changed a lot but my guess (and it's only that) is that in keeping a large fleet running to keep students training, small corners get cut, small being recording every little maint. item problem properly, and someone called them on it. I highly doubt it's anything serious and I sincerely hope it's short lived and they get running again soon, as I'd sure like to go do some aerobatic training there sometime!!!

[niwre]

But small does not get you to voluntarily shut operations down. As always, there will be more to the story than we'll likely ever find out. Maybe one of 'em told TC to piss off Sometimes thats all it takes it seems.

[youngtimer]

probably true but with an international reputation to consider, I'd rather shut myself down than have it done for me. Regardless, I'm sure it's in the best interest of the company, TC and the students that things get sorted out whilst on the ground..., I'm trying to be optimistic that they haven't been negligent trying to make a profit...

[Youngback]

If TC takes your OC away, it takes a lot more work to get it back than if you voluntarily surrender it. It makes perfect sense why they voluntarily grounded their aircraft.

[AuxBatOn]

I hope that they did it genuinely for the sake of safety and not for image/money.

[just curious]

During any TC audit, when a non-compliance is noted that would put an operator at risk of contravening a portion of the CARs threat would see a penalty apply, a company is given the leeway to get in compliance and address the audit findings rather than see punitive sanctions apply.

If on re-commencement of the audit those findings were not addressed, then it's a bad day at the office.

As for the gloom and doom scenarios, this seems a little far-fetched. Following the revelation of a lack of oversight in a certain YWG company, TC would have been far more vigilant with regional companies. Since Steinbach isn't far from YWG, they would have been far easier to check on. Auditors from Prairie and Northern Region have absolutely no problem in suspending an OC if they see tip of the iceberg signs of fraud, deriliction or incompetence.

Such things as failing to transcribe Journey log entries to a tech log the same day, rather than doing them in the morning, or failing to have a U/S parts quarantine bin locked, or having small quantities of common AN stock in accessabel bins on the hangar floor rather than in stores can be the triggers. Rarely with voluntary suspension is it sins of ommission. But rather procrastination that do it.

A company that doesn't have an AME for PRM is a company that can easily be at risk for these sorts of problems.

I'm sure that the full focus of Harv's employees will be on getting these findings addressed tout de suite. It should be a clear call to most other companies that an internal review of their own processes would be in order.

Like J-Roc says, "If it happened to me, it can happen to you!"

[adampenner]

When flying if the engine starts to run rough it's better to do a precautionary landing right a ways instead of ignoring the issue and waiting for the forced landing. It's the same way with running a flying school.

Running 30 airplanes almost 24/7 from 2 bases with rookie pilots is stressful at the best of times, and it's overwhelming with TC on your back. There are issues with our paperwork and tracking system we need to fix. Our AMEs are the best in the world at being mechanics, but not so good on the paperwork side of things we've learned. They need help and we are making sure they are getting the help. So we "landed", are fixing it, and the first airplanes will take off again later this weekend and by mid week we'll be back to normal with a improved tracking system and some outside assistance. Our customers, staff, and family fly these airplanes and everything must be done right and safely, even if we have "land" at a inconvenient time.

Many thanks to staff and customers for their patience and support we've received. If you have questions call or adam@harvsair.com

Adam

[just curious]

Pretty much what I thought Adam. It's happened to other companies, and there are a lot more out there that are due a surprise of the same nature.

Glad you're seizing the bull by the horns.

[qa guy]

The rule at our FTU is always assume their will be an audit tommorow. If your decisions and actions are based on that, a company will welcome audits. Of course it usually costs manhour$

[shamrock104]

Has this place reopened yet?

[flygirl888]

Harv's is open. If you'd like to book, call midweek. I'm sure you can appreciate how fully booked the schedule is.
-Leah

[wet power]

Harv's is one of the best schools out there. They will be back in business in no time.

[limey]

I understand that the Harv's Air maintenance department (AMO) was shutdown altogether and several other, independent aircraft maintenance engineers are attempting to get the aircraft inspected, signed-off and flying again, one at a time.

This sounds a little more serious than poor paperwork!

Does anyone know how many of their planes are actually flying?

I have been planning to go there later this summer but am concerned that they will not be fully operational.

[just curious]

While an interesting observation Limey, suspension of an OC by Transport isn't taken lightly. With that in mind, when the suspension of an OC is undertaken for the public good, particularly over maintenance issues, it is rarely for a weekend.

A voluntary suspension for observed deficiencies is often far more short-lived. In effect the subject company is saying "I'll get right on that!" Bringing in a battery of engineers to satisfy a list of observations would be more likely the response in the latter situation.

In case A, as opposed to B, it is as much a matter of saying "You Boneheads!" as well as telling them to rectify the situation.

For a small company such as this, the situation is binary. A) rectify the situation post-haste, or B) lose all their contract trainig, and become an historical footnote. In this case, my money is on A.

[Krashman]

Well if one thing is for sure....

I know adam is probably working his butt of to get the situation rectified yesterday and will make the proper provisions in the future to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

I hope everything works out! Great School and Great people!

[C23flyer]

Harv's is open. If you'd like to book, call midweek. I'm sure you can appreciate how fully booked the schedule is.
-Leah

Just in case you missed this one...

[MyMeowCat]

I just wanted to say that -- although I have never met anyone at Harv's -- and only exposure was through their web training program -- I spoke to Adam a few month's back (after ejecting from my former FTU) -- that Adam seems to be a hands-on" guy and a "straight-shooter".

I signed onto my former FTU's GS and immediately saw problems and knew actually before I paid that -- it is unlikely me nor many others will get licensed there. I was not as pissed off as the other students since I had FULL time/schedule and cash to go anywhere/anytime I like since I'm the boss...and have Harv's as Plan B. At the time Harv's was my back-up Plan B but came March and it turned out that these Flight Training industry wide problems caught up to Harv's as well.

I just wanted to mention that Adam was brave enough to openly admit I can't do an PPL in 6 weeks (staff shortages etc.) and was open and honest about bookings ect... OTHER FTU's would still get you into GS even knowing they don't have staff to actually fly you.

I wanted to mention Adam seems to be honest "straight shooter" according a PM and willing to deliver any bad news -- a guy with an integrity that I can trust.

God bless Adam, Harv, Aaron and the web guy that taught the PSTAR thing and may you recover soon!

MyMeowCat

[MichaelP]

Depending on how many types a school has the whole PRM/Maintenance business can be a very difficult thing to deal with.
The PRM is often relied upon by maintenance to ensure the ADs and SBs etc are alerted to and complied with.
For our few aeroplanes of modern design you will be shocked at how much work this is.

It used to be that we relied upon the maintenance company to ensure our paperwork and the consequent inspections and mods were up to date. Now TC has introduced a whole new tier to this process that has not necessarily duplicated what went before.

In pre internet CAA days I had easy access to all the ADs, SBs, TNSs etc applicable to my aircraft. The CAA kept every owner up to date.
All aircraft were maintained in accordance with CAA/LAMS/FW/1978 Issue 2 and it was a lot easier to stay legal.
In a way receiving the data in the mail was better than being expected to look for it on a web.

In Airbus times I had to stamp an inspection item seven times, I had to be wary that the inspection itself was the important task and not be more concerned with the paperwork.
The paperwork's time consumption can be contrary to the actual work required.
Paperwork does not ensure safety, there should be enough to certify, but not too much to detract.

So I well understand the pitfalls of having an OC and trying to comply with everything TC ask for... It's a minefield we all have to step through very carefully.

I wish Harv's Air all the best, they seem to be doing something really good in Canadian aviation.