Seneca College Baron Gear Up Landing

[golden hawk]

I heard Seneca College landed a Baron gear up at Lake Simcoe regional July 17. Anyone have any info?

[C23flyer]

From CADORS:

The Seneca College of Applied Arts and Technology Beech 58 Baron aircraft was concluding a VFR flight from Toronto (Buttonville) Municipal Airport (CYKZ) to Barrie-Orillia (Lake Simcoe Regional) Airport (CNB9). NAV CANADA staff at London F.I.C. received a report that an aircraft had landed on runway 28 at Lake Simcoe Regional Airport with the landing gear retracted. The two (2) persons on board were not injured. Ops. impact -- unknown.

[Tiny Tyke]

That is a shame. I've never been a huge fan of Seneca as a whole, but it is shitty to see things like that happen. Here's hoping everyone is OK, and they can get the Baron back on line so that all the students can finish somewhat on time.

[767]

[tired of the ground]

I am not laying blame, pointing fingers or playing armchair quarterback.

BUT!

Hasn't it been predicted on here for quite a while that Seneca was going to gear up one of those things due to non-standard training practices?

[Cat Driver]

Hasn't it been predicted on here for quite a while that Seneca was going to gear up one of those things due to non-standard training practices?

Are they still doing circuits with the gear down?

[Doc]

Apparently not.

[WHIPPER]

Wow. Didn't think that would be possible with the gear horn blaring in your ear when the powers are reduced.

Are they still doing circuits with the gear down?

When I was there they did, but that's only for the first two lessons. If you brought the gear up for circuits you would chew up three or four 150's in the circuit. It was also standard practice to put the gear down well before joining the circuit to reduce the speed and allow for spacing, and even with the gear down its a frick'n fast plane...

[old metal]

The gear horn on some planes won't go off until you pull the power off in the flair, i believe the baron was below 17 inches or so. Not really effective as a safety device but at 17 inches in the baron with no gear you would be cooking right along.

[rigpiggy]

I always get grief from the training schmucks with my "non-standard" short final call of "gear down 3 green cleared to land, lights are on. But then again maybe I'm just paranoid.

[Doc]

Was there an "instructor" on board? Can't imagine Seneca cutting guys loose in a Baron without one....after all, they're the "best".....

[Lloyd Christmas]

I was taught to do a GUMPS check (or some similar acronym)to prevent this kind of situation, you'll never land gear up if you do it. Glad to hear everyone was OK.

[Cat Driver]

I always get grief from the training schmucks with my "non-standard" short final call of "gear down 3 green cleared to land, lights are on. But then again maybe I'm just paranoid.

Why would any pilot give you grief for using such a critical " FINAL " check?

The best pilots tend to develop critical checks such as that for the simple reason that they are capable of a thinking process that trumps " standard " thinking.

I have a check that I always use every time I turn final, be it at several miles or several hundred yards from the touch down area.

I ask myself the question. " where am I landing and where is my gear. "

That came from around ten thousand hours of flying amphibians, it may be " non standard " to some pilots but for me it is standard and so far my gear has always been in the correct position for the surface I landed on.

By the way it saved me landing on a runway with the gear up twice.

Maybe your training schmucks need some critical thinking training?

[SAR_YQQ]

Being Military - we have checks that back up checks. Our final check is called once the Pre-Landing Check is called complete - which is not complete until the flaps and gear have been extended. The Final Check has the non-flying pilot confirm with the FE that the gear is down and locked and that the props are selected full increase. As a rule, I still will do a non-verbal check where I confirm the gear myself and the position of the flaps. This maintains the sterile-cockpit while also applying a small dose of CYA.

[Pirx]

Here we go. Our most experienced ones playing blame game already.

[Cat Driver]

So would it be better if people did not comment?

Is it wrong to wonder if an unorthodox training policy may contribute to forgetting to put the gear down before landing a Baron?

[timbob]

I was working the ramp when one of our renters took our Seminole into Brampton with the gear up. My boss said "Take a 172 and go and pick him up" A little free flyin for me.Sure was a quiet trip back home.

[bob sacamano]

Shitty day for the instructor, that's fo shizzle.

He/she will probably never gear up again.

[L1011]

There is a call for gear down. There is no "unorthodox training policy."

After flying that thing around single engine for any period of time, you can easily tune out the gear horn.

Other than that, I know as little as everyone else, so I have nothing else to say.

[Cat Driver]

There is no "unorthodox training policy."

What do you call teaching people to leave the gear down in a Baron during circuit training normal operation of that airplane?

I have never heard of any other school that teaches that method of operating a retractable gear twin engine airplane, so what word would you suggest other than unorthodox?

[timbob]

Instructor .." Daw.. letz sey we leave dem wheels down till youse getz usta redukin the power fur da climb outs; Otay. Say, u gotz oil er smokey fires on yer side?"

[av38rd]

What do you call teaching people to leave the gear down in a Baron during circuit training normal operation of that airplane?

I have never heard of any other school that teaches that method of operating a retractable gear twin engine airplane, so what word would you suggest other than unorthodox?

Just to clear up the gear issue, it is left down in circuit purely for a maintenance purpose. I don't think preventative maintenance is that unorthodox but I could be wrong.
5 Bonanza's flying 7 days a week doing continuous circuits is a lot of gear swings. By leaving them extended in the circuit, gear motors last much, much longer. They are quite expensive to replace.

In terms of the Barons, same thing, although the gear is retracted and then reextended in the circuit when practicing single engine operations/emergencies. (Control-Power-Drag)

A final note, the planes don't fly cross-countries with the gear down. Not sure who came up with that one.

Hope this clears up some of the false conceptions.

Cheers.

[Cat Driver]

Just to clear up the gear issue, it is left down in circuit purely for a maintenance purpose. I don't think preventative maintenance is that unorthodox but I could be wrong.
5 Bonanza's flying 7 days a week doing continuous circuits is a lot of gear swings. By leaving them extended in the circuit, gear motors last much, much longer. They are quite expensive to replace.

That is an interesting concept.....if you don't use a system it won't wear out.

So why not leave the pitch controls in full fine?

Don't use the flaps.

Don't use the brakes.

Hell there are lots of components you could not use so they don't wear out.

The one problem I still can't quite figure out flying those Barons with the gear down is if you lose an engine in the circuit like turning X/wind does that make it any more risky control wise?

Because if you think wearing the gear out by cycling it up and down as the designers intended saves money just imagine what it would cost if one augers in and bores a smoking hole in some residential area....because they lost control due to the gear being down.

Then again maybe I don't quite understand how those things are supposed to be operated.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have two comments

1) Unfortunately quite a few truely excellent pilots have landed gear up. They IMO were in general, smart, disciplined, sensible, and professional pilots who screwed up. Yes they shouldn't have done it but anybody who has flown for a while will have done some dumb things, gotten away with it through skill and a dose of good luck and beat themselves up over how stupid they were and learned the lesson of how quickly things can go to S*** after even a moments inattention. Unfortunately for these guys/gals they didn't get away with it and suffered humiliation of the most public kind. For all those denizens of Avcanada that are pointing fingers maybe you should think about how many times you have screwed up and how you would feel if a stranger made judgemental and sarcastic posts about your last mind fart.....

2) As I have posted elsewhere I have very strong beliefs that all training should reflect how aircraft are actually used. This is especially important for advanced training for pilots aspiring to work in commercial aviaton. There should never be a normal operating procedure that is to be only used in training. This IMO is an oxymoron. I real think this school really needs to examine how they do business. How can you train someone to operate an airplane properly if you use a procedure like leaving the gear down in the circuit, that is NEVER used in industry ? what message are you sending to the student if the only reason you are disregarding the virtually universal SOP of gear up after takeoff under every circumstance, is to save cycles on the gear motor ?

[timbob]

I may not have attended a University Flight College (although I did go to university) and did my initial twin training in an older seminole instead of a spiffy baron, I do know one thing: I would never ever not clean up a piston twin after takeoff and tempt fate at the most crucial time of the flight even if its only around the patch. My right hand would automatically raise the gear wether the instructor liked it or not.After the flight I would go to the CFI and maintenance "headcase" and tell them to shove their cost saving measures up their arse and finally go right to TC and file a complaint as per safety .