Seneca College Baron Gear Up Landing

[x-wind]

Good post BPF. The checklist and fast hands IMHO are a serious problem. I remember one nasty night going to near minimums with a student who forgot the gear and when I asked if gear was down, replied- yes. Busy was the excuse.

[Flaperons]

Flaperons,

Forgeting the gear, is on the same level as fogetting to start the engines before take-off.

Are you the instructor that was on board when this incident happened?

Again, try as you may, you cannot justify forgetting the gear, in a light twin, when 2 pilots (one being the PIC) are at the controls.

You are the one looking like a fool for trying to do so!

(Sigh) Could you do me a favour and point out the part where I was trying "as I may" to justify forgetting the gear?

I would, however, argue that there might be a small difference between forgetting the gear and forgetting to start the engines. For one, the APU doesn't put out nearly enough thrust to start us moving, so we might notice the problem when we call ready for takeoff and the tower points out that we're still at the gate... How embarrassing would that be!?!

By the way, I'm glad you felt the need to stress the point that one of the pilots was the PIC, but I'm not sure where you learned that both pilots would be at the controls...

For those interested:

If memory serves, final landing checks in the Baron were
Props: Max
Flaps: Full
Landing Gear: Down, 3 Green

And yes, there is a gear horn if you retard below I think 14" or so with the gear up.

[Hedley]

final landing checks in the Baron were
Props: Max
Flaps: Full
Landing Gear: Down, 3 Green

I might ask, what happens if you forget to advance
the props to full fine pitch? Answer: nothing. I always
land with the props in cruise pitch.

I might ask, what happens if the flaps are not full?
Answer: nothing. Full flaps are a drag device during
approach. As long as your airspeed is good, it really
doesn't matter what flap setting you have.

So I might ask, why are unimportant checks there?

The only important check you have listed is
landing gear.

Again, I think BPF hit the nail on the head when
he suggests that newbie pilots are overloaded with
unnecessary checklist items, and as a result
forget what's important - the gear.

[Strega]

(Sigh) Could you do me a favour and point out the part where I was trying "as I may" to justify forgetting the gear?

I would, however, argue that there might be a small difference between forgetting the gear and forgetting to start the engines. For one, the APU doesn't put out nearly enough thrust to start us moving, so we might notice the problem when we call ready for takeoff and the tower points out that we're still at the gate... How embarrassing would that be!?!

By the way, I'm glad you felt the need to stress the point that one of the pilots was the PIC, but I'm not sure where you learned that both pilots would be at the controls...

For those interested:

If memory serves, final landing checks in the Baron were
Props: Max
Flaps: Full
Landing Gear: Down, 3 Green

And yes, there is a gear horn if you retard below I think 14" or so with the gear up

If the last item on the checklist was the gear, why was it forgotten? (by 2 pilots)
I am speculating here, but if mechanical issues caused this accident, Im certain, by now, someone would have piped up.

would you want your loved ones riding in a plane, that was commanded by a pilot that "forgets the gear" from time to time?

In response to another point where someone mentioned that you could forget the gear after an approach to minimums, This implies the act of flying an instrument approach takes less brain power than remembering to lower the gear. I would argue that lowering the gear (by means of throwing a lever or switch ect) requires much less brain capacity than flying an approach.. no?

[Flaperons]

Okay Hedley; that really is stupid. Standard final landing checks for any variable pitch prop, turbo or no, include verifying your landing flap (whatever that may be), advancing props to max rpm for max power output in the event of a balked approach or other contingency, and verifying your gear are down and locked. You should know better...

[SAR_YQQ]

I might ask, what happens if you forget to advance
the props to full fine pitch? Answer: nothing. I always
land with the props in cruise pitch.

Flaperons beat me to it - do you take off in cruise pitch Hedley? This check is very important, if you go-around you will want those props configured correctly.

[Big Pistons Forever]

flaperons

The only "standard" is that for piston engines, when you want to increase power you adjust the mixture appropriate to the circumstances, set a suitable prop prm and then advance the throttle to achieve the desired power. so ultimately why should the landing be any different? If you are going around you should not be jaming power on without checking the props and mixture first right ? Now to make life easier for students who allready have a lot on their plate, we set up the airplane ahead of time, but as they gain experience they should be able to grow out of it. Personaly I leave the mixture at cruise lean but slide the props up to full just as I am crossing the fence as by then I am at ref speed and the props are on the fine pitch stops so there will be no actual increase in RPM.

[Hedley]

You should know better ...

Yeah, I know but ... FWIW I land with cruise RPM,
and lean mixture. Now, you might wonder why.

In the very unlikely event of an overshoot at the
last moment (they really don't occur very often
in real life, at least not to me), then it's mixtures
props/throttles. No biggie.

Why cruise rpm on the props? Well, apart from
the noise of high rpm, which really pisses off the
neighbours, I fly (amongst other aircraft) a C421B,
and it's a real no-no to drive the engine with the
prop, with that gearbox. I personally really hate
to hear pilots unnecessarily wind the engines up
to max rpm on final, but maybe that's just me.

Why lean mixture on the props? Again, using
the C421B as an example, because TCM, the
engine manufacturer, says to. Despite what
you may have been told, it's not the inches
of manifold pressure per unit time that cracks
the cylinder heads on those GTSIO-520's
(that's more for turbocharger inertia), what
cracks the heads is shooting the cold fuel
with the rich mixtures during descent.

So, feel free to criticize me, but by leaving
the props at cruise RPMs, I keep the
neighbours happy, I reduce wear and tear
on the gearboxes, and by keeping the
mixtures lean, I don't crack the cylinder
heads.

I understand that if you are flying someone
else's airplane, the maintenance costs
probably don't matter as much to you
as they do to me.

But apart from the cost, poor operation
of an aircraft drastically reduces it's
reliability, which is a real concern for me,
because I fly over water a lot, and I'm
really not the best swimmer.

do you take off in cruise pitch Hedley?

Actually, I know more than one Pitts pilot that
does exactly that. No need to piss off the neighbours,
and not every takeoff requires 3000 fpm.

[Flaperons]

Hedley and ClunK:

You're telling me that your company SOPs permit you to land in Min Gov? Who the @#$! are you trying to kid? If you're carrying passengers there is NO FUCKING WAY your approved SOPs tell you to land with your props anywhere but MAX Gov. If we're talking about your own little procedure (which I have also sometimes done, when I used to bounce around in a Twotter into a 7800' paved strip, and the mood suited me, and I was empty) in order to keep her quiet and supposedly "save wear and tear on the engine", then fine. But I would be curious to know which is harder on a $250,000 to $500,000 engine: always landing at Max gov and low torque, or accidentally forgetting to go to Max gov before throwing the thrust levers up to Max torque when you hit some nasty unforseen windshear and try to climb out of it. Not to mention the fact that most turboprop engines will not go into reverse unless the condition levers are at max gov. Really, this is fucking stupid, and since we're discussing an incident involving INSTRUCTING, why would you even bring it up? The students at Seneca, and various other professional college programs across Canada, are being taught (for the most part) with a focus on eventually going airline. You think Porter ever flies into YTZ at Min Gov? By your logic they should, considering how much public protest there is to their very existance on the island. Jeez... I wonder why they don't?

Your credibility just went down the shitter. I'm sure there will be others who come back with rebuttles in your defense, but they will ALL BE WRONG. If you own your own plane, or fly cargo, do whatever the @#$! you want; it's only your life that may be lost. If, however, you're carrying live loads, ease off on the ego and follow the few parts of your SOPs that actually make sense.

Fucking stupid!

[BoostedNihilist]

Hmm, I wonder if SENECA has an SOP that makes lowering the gear before landing mandatory...

Fucking stupid!

I've heard they have an SOP requiring the gear to be down at all times while doing touch and goes and circuit training.

Fucking stupid!

I also heard they have a 5knot xwind component limit

Fucking stupid!

defending any of this shit is

Fucking stupid!

So there you have it. It is only okay to have fucked up SOPS if you are are SENECA..

thats just plain

Fucking stupid!

Those godawful jackets

Fucking stupid!

[Cat Driver]

I might ask, what happens if you forget to advance
the props to full fine pitch? Answer: nothing. I always
land with the props in cruise pitch.

Ditto, same here.

There is no, I repeat no reason to need the props in full fine pitch unless you are about to take off......

......the geared engines in airplanes such as the 421 are very intolerant of reverse loading as are all big radials.

I have over ten thousand hours on big radials and I never select full fine until the throttles are closed for the touch down...the airplane goes down hill quite nicely in cruise RPM.

A go around will require the power to be set for climb power not full take off power.

I find it amusing reading all this chest beating here by people like flaperons and it is amusing seeing how little he/she really knows about how to fly an airplane.

And before anyone here starts to slam me for being stuck in the old piston radial engine mind set, I was flying turbines before most of you were born....both fixed and rotary wing.

[HavaJava]

ARGH...I wasn't going to wade into this Seneca slug-fest but here I am.

Nothing I could ever say about the whole "gear down" circuit thing will ever convince the old farts on this forum that there is nothing unsafe about them so I won't even try.

I just thought I'd point out that a few years ago Sault college landed a seminole gear-up. If I remember correctly that happened on a multi-engine flight test so not only was there an examiner on board but technically there wasn't even a student on board but instead a "candidate". I'm not trying to slam Sault because I know they are great school just like Seneca but I just wanted to point out that this accident is something that can happen to any school. There was also a gear-up landing on a seminole at Toronto airways not too long ago but I don't know all the details on it.

As for the Seneca accident here is my 2 cents (by the way, I am 99.9999999% positive that the few gear-down circuits in the Seneca curriculum have NOTHING to do with this accident). I remember a problem with the Baron that I always thought was an accident waiting to happen. When practicing engine-out procedures, the non-operating throttle is reduced to idle (or close to idle to simulate zero-thrust). When either throttle is reduced passed a certain point the gear warning horn goes off. This means that the gear warning horn will be blaring all the way from engine failure to gear selection on base turn. When you are busy dealing with the emergency (real or simulated) it is very easy to tune out the incessant blaring of the horn. Thus, when both throttles are reduced in the flare there is nothing new to warn you of the gear up condition. As a caveat to this I agree that there is no excuse for not using the checklist (or GUMPS) for final landing checks.

A solution to this would be to change the condition for the activation of the gear warning horn from EITHER throttle being reduced below a certain point to BOTH throttles being reduced below a certain point.

HavaJava

p.s. Hey Flaperons...you crack me up buddy! You should splurge on some redbull and throw down some VCRs for me tonight!

[L1011]

Boosted, I respect Hedley's, Clunk's AND Cat's posts, because at least they have experience and actually KNOW what they're talking about.

That last post of yours was something. There was a BUNCH of "I heard" statements that are not factual.

Then again, I'm not really surprised because the majority of your posts on this forum are:

Fucking stupid!

You can't call ALL Seneca grads/current students giant douches with their head up their ass (not your exact words, but whatever) without looking like a total hypocrite, as you are one yourself (minus the Seneca part of course).

Happy Landings!
L1011

[Strega]

Flaperons,

In the POH for the PA-23-250 B, it says on final to increase the prop RPM to "high cruise RPM"

Since the POH is approved data, I would think it supercedes what you are saying.
If you dont beleive me, Im certain I can find an old copy and scan it for you.

Many large opposed piston engines' harmonic dampeners (most folks call them counterweights) are also damaged when run at high RPM and low torque, so its best to run in this condition as little as possible.


and as for your constant use of profanity on this site, please stop it.

[golden hawk]

I had no idea when I started this thread of the ensuing mayhem. I am amazed at the wide variety of procedures/techniques for tasks common to every flight that have developed over the years.

Entertaining reading, I must say.....

[BoostedNihilist]

Boosted, I respect Hedley's, Clunk's AND Cat's posts, because at least they have experience and actually KNOW what they're talking about.

Oh no, I think the earths rotation has stopped, l1011 does not respect me, whatever shall I do? I'm thinking suicide.

Lol, on a serious note I am sure their ego's are now sufficiently satiated. At any rate, that's good for them, that you respect them and all. I am sure each and every one of them care exactly what you or anyone else out here in retardland thinks of them. Personally, I tend to agree with you, I respect them as well because of their priciples though, not because of their experience. (though I do respect their experience but a person is more than what he/she does)

Besides, as has been stated. apparently this can happen to anyone notwithstanding experience so I fail to see how experience in this argument is relevant.

At any rate some actual questions that you and your vast experience might be able to clarify for me.

Just how much experience do you need to know that the gear should be down before you land? Does this come after 1000 hours? 10000 hours?

I might not have a shitload of experience but knowing just the basics of physics leads me to the conclusion that the tires would rather be on the ground than the belly? can you tell me I am wrong here?

That last post of yours was something. There was a BUNCH of "I heard" statements that are not factual.

Two, semi-factual, which to me is acceptable on this forum, I've seen a lot worse get by

You can't call ALL Seneca grads/current students giant douches with their head up their ass (not your exact words, but whatever) without looking like a total hypocrite, as you are one yourself (minus the Seneca part of course).

Those, my misguided foe are nowhere near close to my exact words, in fact they are not even within the context of my rant.
That statement of yours borders on the kind of ignorance a statement such as 'ALL Seneca grads/current students giant douches with their head up their ass' is beholden to. I rarely make broad generalizations, it is not what I do or how I think.

Maybe you should go back to grade four reading, I never said or insinuated that all seneca students and grads are douches. Others on this thread have, I have not, that is you reading what you want to, perhaps because you have a problem with me personally... Yes, I made fun of the jackets but who doesn't. I did allude to a student being a problem if he didn't deploy the gear but this is an individual mistake (the vast majority of pilots land with the gear down).

I don't care if you have a problem with me or what I say however I do ask that if you are going to put words in my mouth at least make sure you get them right.


If I didnt know better I would have to say you're just a seneca grad bent out of shape because your precious legacy is being poked at by the public. Well, I got news for you as obviously my level of experience is not sufficient to justify my opinion I can speak as a member of the general public.. the majority of the public thinks it's fucking stupid to land a plane with the gear up. (there's a generalization for you to bitch about, dweeb)

Finally, I challenge your characterization of me as a hypocrite. I have gone through my posts with a fine tooth comb and cannot for the life of me find an example of what one could call hypocrisy... which leads me to the conclusion that you simply must not know what that word means.. which wouldn't surprise me in the least, afterall, you are just a pilot.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think the bigger question is how to produce students who understand how (and more importantly why) to configure an airplane for the prevailing conditions. The C421C I flew was sold with 1400 hrs on the engines and all the original cylinders (none of which had ever had to be removed) ,turbocharger, and waste gate, so I think I can speak with a little bit of authority on how to operate GTSIO 520's. As the above posters had pointed out the correct way to operate this aircraft is with the props at cruise RPM and the mixture leaned on final. So does that mean I made ever single landing that way ? The answer is no, there were a hand full of landings in very gusty winds and a nasty circling approach to mins in the rocks, where I went to climb power PRM and mixture settings earlier on final so there would be absolutely no delay if I decided to throw away the approach. There are IMO ways to start building that sort of understanding in the conduct of flight training. Instead of a cookbook approach where the gear always goes down over the green house, the props always go to full fine on base, and you always turn final over the farmers field, there should be a discussion about how the aircraft should be configured under various circumstances. You can mix things up by asking tower for a right hand circuit or when you get extended on downwind ask how the student is going to manage his approach (hint: dragging the gear from midfield downwind to a base for a 4 mile final is not the right answer )

Finally I guess I am in real trouble as the last turbine airplane I flew had Allison 501's. Since there are no prop levers and no way to control prop RPM in flight I guess every landing I made in the airplane was done in a "(expletive deleted) stupid" way

[Pirx]

Strega...
I don't see how Pipier's POH would apply.
I dug out an old Bonanza manual and here is what is says:

"
Before Landing
...
9. Propeller - HIGH RPM
"
POH is golden, no?

[AuxBatOn]

If the last item on the checklist was the gear, why was it forgotten? (by 2 pilots)

Different factors. No excuse, but it happens. Have you read the report I posted yet?

would you want your loved ones riding in a plane, that was commanded by a pilot that "forgets the gear" from time to time?

I have yet to meet someone that landed gear up twice because of Human Factors. So, I think it's very unlikely that it will happen to someone twice. So, you can drop the "from time to time"...

I'd rather fly with a guy that landed gear up once and learned his friggin lesson than flying with someone like you that seems to think he is immune to any incident/accident.

AuxBatOn

[Flaperons]

There is no, I repeat no reason to need the props in full fine pitch unless you are about to take off......

I have over ten thousand hours on big radials and I never select full fine until the throttles are closed for the touch down...the airplane goes down hill quite nicely in cruise RPM.

A go around will require the power to be set for climb power not full take off power.

I find it amusing reading all this chest beating here by people like flaperons and it is amusing seeing how little he/she really knows about how to fly an airplane.

And before anyone here starts to slam me for being stuck in the old piston radial engine mind set, I was flying turbines before most of you were born....both fixed and rotary wing.

There IS NO REASON to go full fine, so why do you go full fine just before touchdown?

Climb power during windshear... that's interesting.

Radial engines... I'm sure many of the up-and-comers will be climbing into one of those.

clunkdriver:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that there are some piston engines out there that require those protocols. If a POH dictates such operation, then obviously the student must be taught it. This, however, is not true for the Baron, nor is it true for most turboprops, and I doubt it's true for most pistons. While I'll admit I've learned something new today, I still think you're an assh*le. To address your other point; my lack of civility is due to the fact that I enjoy it.


HavaJava:

VCR? I have no idea what you're talking about...

Strega:

Shut the f*ck up.

God this is fun!

[Strega]

I have yet to meet someone that landed gear up twice because of Human Factors. So, I think it's very unlikely that it will happen to someone twice. So, you can drop the "from time to time"...

These people do exist!

I'd rather fly with a guy that landed gear up once and learned his friggin lesson than flying with someone like you that seems to think he is immune to any incident/accident.

I didnt ask about you, I asked if you would trust your loved ones to fly with someone that has "forgotten to put down" the landing gear.

What do you tell your next boss when he asks you if you have ever landed, forgetting the gear?

"well yes sir, I have. But it wont ever happen again"


I understand there are crappy pilots that land 702/703 aircraft gear up. But for an Instructor at the prestigous Seneca college to do so is several orders of magnitude worse.

[Strega]

Strega...
I don't see how Pipier's POH would apply.
I dug out an old Bonanza manual and here is what is says:

"
Before Landing
...
9. Propeller - HIGH RPM
"
POH is golden, no?

I'll dig around and post it for you.

[Cat Driver]

There IS NO REASON to go full fine, so why do you go full fine just before touchdown?

So the airplane is configured for start up next time I want to fly it.

Radial engines... I'm sure many of the up-and-comers will be climbing into one of those.

Isn't that a shame to not experience such marvelous old engines an learn to fly those airplanes.

Like I said flaperons it is unlikely you were even born when I first started flying turbine engines, so you are making a fool of yourself by displaying your obvious ignorance of the world of aviating.

[AuxBatOn]

These people do exist!

Never heard of one yet in the 12 years I've been involved in flying...

I didnt ask about you, I asked if you would trust your loved ones to fly with someone that has "forgotten to put down" the landing gear.

Same logic goes for my loved ones.

What do you tell your next boss when he asks you if you have ever landed, forgetting the gear?

"well yes sir, I have. But it wont ever happen again"

Be upfront, admit you screwed up and show that you can learn from mistakes. That goes far beyong the guy that claims nothing ever happenned to him. Because we all know that the later is lying.

I understand there are crappy pilots that land 702/703 aircraft gear up. But for an Instructor at the prestigous Seneca college to do so is several orders of magnitude worse.

It's not about the type of operation, it's not about being a good or a crappy pilot. It happens to everyone, even the best (accidents/incidents I mean). Again, have you read the report?? I think that's the 3rd time I ask the question with no answer... Everybody has good and bad days. No reason to forget the gears, but some factor will contribute to forgetting it. For the 4th time and 2nd time in this post, have you read the report?

AuxBatOn

[Flaperons]

Cat:

Explain to me the relevance of a radial engine to the fact that the Baron requires you to go full fine before landing.

Like I said flaperons it is unlikely you were even born when I first started flying turbine engines, so you are making a fool of yourself by displaying your obvious ignorance of the world of aviating.

This is not a logical statement. You're saying that the fact that I was born after 1917 (the year you became Super Sky Commander) displays my ignorance of the world of aviation, and therefore I am a fool. You know, it's very common for the elderly to become easily confused. It's also very common for the aged to become envious of those that can still wipe their own bums.