WTF is going on in the training industry in Canada!?!?!?!?

[200hr Wonder]

A couple years ago I worked for the YWCA in Calgary teaching the computer component of a class for new immigrants. They had a six or 8 weeks course that showed these people how to function in a Canadian business. They got instruction on everything on how to dress to how to conduct a meeting, job interview skills, how to handle a lunch with colleges. This was aimed at high level people, all where university graduates, some with tonnes of experience in there field, and all of them where working at jobs well below there education/experience level. Why? Because they did not know enough of Canadian customs and behaviors to land a job in a Canadian company. They ended up working for the local greasy Chinese food place or what ever. In this course they held mock meetings, job interviews, luncheons and where instructed on how to do it Canadian. The luncheons where great as everyone brought a dish from home, yum yum All foreign students should spend a good week in a course like this when they first arrive. Some of there social issues are just that they do not know any better! Oh I think the placement with in six weeks of the program for participants at skill appropriate jobs was about 60% - 70%, so it seemed to work!

[Grey_Wolf]

I really like the way the Air Cadet contracts are run. You get say 16 students and they eat sleep live and die as a group. If the foreign students did that it would make life so much easier.

Having been on both sides of the fence (Cadet in 2000, Instructor in 2006); Agreed !!!

The Air Cadet Flying Scholarship Program works because of the student's motivation to be there. These kids are chosen out of hundred and given the scholarship at no cost. That's right folks, these kids give up seven weeks of their summer for a shot at a *FREE* PPL!

(Paid for by the good folks at the DND and the Air Cadet League of Canada. As an aside, back in 2000, it cost the League about 13,500$ to send 1 cadet on the course (the price included lodging, meals, training, and paying the cadet 60$/week while on course. AFAIK here in Ontario, roughly 65 out of 700+ that apply are given the chance to get a PPL at no cost over 7 weeks).

The other point that helps this system work is structure. Briefing and Debreifing are crucial. At any given point, one should as an Instructor be able to report the student's progress, total hours, strengths and weaknesses, and plan to improve thier skills so that they can pass the course. PTR's must be upkept accordingly!

Lastly, many of these students have had previous training over the course of the two previous summers. Which means that by the time they're into their third summer, they have acquired some basics skills and knowledge. Usually the first lessons from Attitudes and Movements up to Spiral Dives (1-14) have been learnt already in the Glider Scholarship Course; the student has only to learn how it applies to a powered aircraft, per say.

Summer 1 = Introduction to Aviation Course (ITAC)
3 week course that goes over a basic/general/introductory PPL ground school
(For those former cadets: I slack, You slack, We all slack for ITAC!)

Summer 2 = Glider Scholarship Course
6 week course that covers the glider ground school, the Radio Ops Certificate, and gets the students a Glider's License

Summer 3 = Power Scholarship Course (PPL)
7 weeks that goves over the already taught PPL ground school but more in depth, and gets the student's a PPL.


IMHO, The only limiting point that washes out a student is their inability to perform at the given pace set by the course.

During the first 3 weeks, the student goes over the ground school and on the 3rd Saturday, they write their PPAER.
Fail it and your sent back home (RTU - Returned to Unit). Partial Pass are on a case basis (since you have to wait 14 days for re-write, that puts the student in week 5 to pass the ground portion)

As for the Flight Training side, each cadet is slotted for 46 hours of training to get their PPL. Most students Solo around 10-15 hours and Flight Test between 38-42 hours. Failed the Flight Test and still have hours remaining? You've got a second chance. Outside of 46 hours? RTU! Unless there are hours remaing from other students that have finished under 46, that you can 'borrow' at the CFI's, Instructor's, and Course Officer's discresion that will allow you to finish.

[E-Flyer]

Unfortunately since the way the country's are run east of Europe, the sense of 'team-work' is not very strong. There it's all about self status and not a team work based status.

This can actually be witnessed through how well their sports team's are doing at the international level

[200hr Wonder]

Grey Wolf, I flight tested at 35, 38 and 40 hours my 3 full time cadets Being a senior and strong instructor I got one trouble case, got him close to flight test sent him to the wolves and lost the roll of the dice. Where else does that happen?

[Grantmac]

It's a lot easier to point out the things that are done wrong than the things that are done right... If I tell you I can solo a person at 12 hours I'm sure someone on here is going to tell me I'm doing something wrong

I solo'd in 10 from an 1800 foot runway. It's all about motivation and flying as often as possible (Cadet program). We got excellent training from motivated instructors and had a CFI and owner who were both Ex-military (neither pilots IIRC). Quite a few of my fellow students were ESL as well, and their attitude is what got them to the finish line at the end of the 7 weeks. We had one failure, it was definately a motivational one. Nobody graduated withmore than 50 hours. I can see where a set-up like we had would work very well for contract training of imported students.
If you want to get a license quickly, then I'd say to the school that you want it done in 8 weeks and if that doesn't happen you WILL take your money elsewhere regardless of how much you've already spent. It will always be cheaper in the long run.
Cheers,
Grant

[MichaelP]

I began flying in November with a £4 trial lesson in the Fuji... My PPL was dated 9th July the following year.
I completed 45 hours before getting my licence and learned through a typical West Country winter of horizontal rain, miserable weather, and lots of wind!
It was good training.
I am sure that the cadets often have it easier because their courses run in the summer.
Eight weeks in the summer is not all that difficult, but don't consider trying for an 8 week PPL course through the winter unless you go to Australia!

I learned when I took home £21.50p a week, and the rate was £10.14p solo, £11.64p an hour dual.
I sold my car for ten quid, I'd paid £75 for it and rebuilt its gearbox once...
I took the train, and then the bus to Clyst Honiton, often I'd walk all the way from Exeter St Davids to the airport.
I gave up a lot of things to learn to fly.

One regret: I was offered the Fuji at the same rate as the Cessna 150, but I chose the 150 because I thought I was going back to Canada. What an idiot! I could have learned aerobatics as well as getting my PPL.

What students have to realise is that they are the ones who have to do most of the work.
They can't be programmed, they have to learn through their own efforts.
We learn to fly on the ground. Flying hours are wasted if the student does not understand the background of what they are doing.

[Grey_Wolf]

Grey Wolf, I flight tested at 35, 38 and 40 hours my 3 full time cadets Being a senior and strong instructor I got one trouble case, got him close to flight test sent him to the wolves and lost the roll of the dice. Where else does that happen?

When I instructed 4 cadets back in 2006 (as a Fresh Class 4), Here were my stats for comparison:
1 - Flight Tested at 41.4, Scored 119/124
2 - Flight Test at 41.1, Scored 107/124
3 - Flight Test at 41.5, Scored 110/124
4 - Flight Test at 40.1, Scored 105+3/124 (Partialed Forced Landing)

We also had a "90-10" on course, and despite having banked a few extra hours for him (almost 6), the same thing happened ...
Got sent home 4 days before graduation with 56 hours of flying with 2 shots at the Flight Test


On the civilian side, during the year I was there (14 months)
1 - FT at 49.2, Scored 71/84 for RPP
2 - FT at 49.2, Scored 106/124 for PPL
3 - FT at 47.9, Scored 108/124 for PPL
4 - FT at 44.3, Scored 111/124 for PPL
5 - FT at 181.5, Scored 115/132 for CPL

[Redwine]

It works both ways. Try going to Europe. Converting your licence I mean....You will get hosed. Why should Canada be any different? Hose the hosers...Give 'em some of their own medicine. IMO

[MichaelP]

Paying a reasonable amount to have properly maintained aircraft and motivated instructional staff might not be being hosed.

Paying a little, having no-shows, poorly maintained aircraft, and staff that don't care and use 70 or more hours to get you through a PPL is being hosed whatever the cost!

[200hr Wonder]

Are you suggesting that you get what you pay for Michael?

[FreedomTC]

Hello all, I would like to start off by stating that I have spent the last...

As background, I am a young mid level instructor who is currently working at a medium sized shop in a medium sized city somewhere about’s in this large country of ours. I have had sufficient experience....

Hi Tizz,
I just joined this list about an hour ago while searching the net for toronto flight schools and then posting on this forum the question of what school would be recommended for pilot training. So far no replies (you mean it takes more than an hour to find out!).

You sound like someone who cares about what he/she does and you also sound ethical. Nice to know in these troubled times.

Your post is scary in the sense that it sounds to me like the person was being taken to several cleaners. Mind you, didn't the person wonder why it would take so long to go solo? Ok, I have never flown a small plane and I am the last person who should make any comments about 'when the time is right to go solo' and therefore am not doing that now.

I am not sure if you will respond back but I am glad to know that there are people in this industry that really give a damn

Since it seems that there are some instructors replying to your post, I am hoping someone will give me some insight to a decent training school in Toronto. I live 3 minutes north of it and it would be a nice thing to go to one nearby.

[Old Dog Flying]

During my long career in aviation I wore 2 hats, controller and flight instructor and I've worked with many nationalities, some difficult , most not. Working with NATO students while in the air force probably helped my way of thinking but I treated everyone with respect because,,....they were paying the bills!.

My flying students rarely exceeded 15 hrs to first solo and yet they were perfectly safe in all pre-solo exercises.

And when I ran a large flying school for a short while before moving to the we(s)t coast I paid my instructors more than the going rate today...and that was 30 years ago!

What is the connection? Inexperienced, underpaid instructors, schools with high overhead and a good source of revenue from unwhitting off-shore students.

During one of my part time instructing sessions, a friend with a degree in education and fluent in a couple of Asian languages and myself set up a course for ESLs in an attempt to teach them how to safely communicate with ATC in English. The school that I was working with wanted to control the course, over-charge the students and pay us next to nothing. They refused to advertize the availability of the course and in the end, after only 3 students enroled..and completed the course, we packed it in. Frustrated, you bet.

That same school employed Japanese instructors who openly admitted that they taught their Japanese students in their mother tongue. Dangerous, you can believe it...even when trying to communicate with the instructors!

I've also experienced students who would not open a book in preparation for their next lesson and would frquently phone Daddy with complaints of being picked on because they were not treated with respect by their instructors.

I know..far too much rambling but I'm happy to be out of instructing and now enjoying flying.

[MichaelP]

No longer donating your time and to the ***** bank
That Japanese school has gone by the board... with the disgraceful airline company the foundered so badly...

It is apparent that the Canadian English Language Proficiency test is not making it any easier for ATC and other pilots... Understanding and speech have not improved

[Grantmac]

I believe it's a written exam. I mean hell, I could (almost) pass a Japanese Language Proficiency exam if it was written. But I don't have a chance in hell of understanding or being understood in Japanese.
It should be a pass-fail oral exam conducted using headsets. If either of the people (examiner/student) do not understand each other on the first try it's a fail. Pretty much playing telephone or taking dictation.
But then someone fails and pulls the race card and we're back to attempting to make sense of Engrish and avoiding the students in said aircraft who really have no idea where we just reported in.