UPDATE Supplemental information received from T.S.B. Initial Notification [#A08O0179]: The twin engine Beech 58 Baron touched down at the Lake Simcoe Regional Airport with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft was being utilized for single-engine flight training. On the third single-engine approach, engine power on the operating engine remained above idle until immediately before touchdown. Both the student and the instructor missed the fact that the landing gear had not been selected down during the approach to the runway. The landing gear warning horn did not sound until the engine power lever was brought all the way back to idle just before touchdown. The aircraft sustained substantial damage to the propellers, engines, flaps and belly. There were no injuries.
Well, that CADORS is at odds to my experience with the Baron. During single-engine practice the gear-warning horn was always blaring the entire time until the gear was selected down. Can someone tell me if Seneca has either changed their engine failure procedure or if the Barons have been modified so that both throttles have to be reduced for the gear warning horn to go off?
The Barons didn't have a silence button when I was there...but maybe they came up with an alternate procedure to allow it to be silenced. You could always tell when someone was doing single engine approach practice because you could hear the gear horn in the background on all their radio calls.
From my experience, the only condition for the horn to be activated was for either throttle to be reduced below a physical point on the quadrant (which corresponded to approximately 17 inches manifold pressure) with the gear up. Even with the throttle positioned to simulate a feathered prop I never saw it high enough to silence the horn. As far as I remember, flaps played no part in activating the horn.
My Baron manual from SIMCOM says the horn is set to activate with the gear up and the throttle retarded below 12-14 inches. The last FTU twin I flew the AME had set the horn to the lowest possible setting which was about 12 in. The drill was I simulated the feather by reducing a throttle to idle and once the student retarded the affected prop lever about an inch while making the verbal call that he was placing the lever in the feather detent , I waited 5 or 6 seconds and then increased the "failed" engines throttle just enough to silence the horn (which was around the zero thrust condition) and then the student would look at he prop and call prop feathered.
It is quite possible that Seneca has taken the step to reduce the threshold for the activation of the gear horn to a point where a zero thrust setting will silence it. That would be a good step.
Still, if there was a mod that caused the gear warning horn to go off only when both throttles were reduced passed a certain point than that would solve the problem.
Still, if there was a mod that caused the gear warning horn to go off only when both throttles were reduced passed a certain point than that would solve the problem.
HJ
I do not see how this would have helped in this particular case as presumably both throttles were reduced in the last part of the flare. As I said in an earlier post IMO the best defence against this kind of accident is for instructors to make their students devlop an automatic reflex to check the gear is down on every final appraoch.
HavaJava wrote:BPF,
Still, if there was a mod that caused the gear warning horn to go off only when both throttles were reduced passed a certain point than that would solve the problem.
But surely then you would need different thresholds depending on whether you're operating on one or two engines because you're presumably coming in with a higher power on the one engine.
I can't see how any system that uses throttle or prop setting can be very reliable - you're either going to get the horn blaring all the time you're on one engine (and therefore learn to ignore it), or you're not going to hear it at all, which appeared to be what caused this accident.
The Piper Arrow blows its horn if you're below a certain airspeed with the gear up, but it also has problems.
I think the only reliable solution is to have a "GEAR UP!" spoken voice when you're descending below about 200ft AGL with the gear still up. I imagine it would be pretty easy for the Garmin G1000 to be customised to do this as you could use the terrain awareness module to figure out your height.
UPDATE Supplemental information received from T.S.B. Initial Notification [#A08O0179]: The twin engine Beech 58 Baron touched down at the Lake Simcoe Regional Airport with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft was being utilized for single-engine flight training. On the third single-engine approach, engine power on the operating engine remained above idle until immediately before touchdown. Both the student and the instructor missed the fact that the landing gear had not been selected down during the approach to the runway. The landing gear warning horn did not sound until the engine power lever was brought all the way back to idle just before touchdown. The aircraft sustained substantial damage to the propellers, engines, flaps and belly. There were no injuries.
May I say, perhaps kudos to the "crew" for not pullng up and going around at this point a la TC-YOW?
There are hundreds of different aircraft with hundreds of different methods of gear warning functions, dependence on these functions can and does result in mistakes being made and landing with the gear in the wrong position.
Conversely forming the habit of doing a final gear position check before "EVERY" landing will prevent landing with the gear in the wrong position......gear down on water...possible fatal mistake...gear up on land .....embarrassing and expensive.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
There is a final check for the gear. It's called the Final Landing Check. I pointed this out earlier, but everyone jumped on the fact that it calls for Props max. THE FINAL ITEM ON THE FINAL LANDING CHECKLIST IS "LANDING GEAR - DOWN THREE GREEN". The purpose of a checklist is to ensure that nothing important ever gets missed. Having a routine mental check is obviously an excellent idea, but should your memory fail you, or distraction lead to you breaking your routine, the checklist is there supposedly to save your ass. Obviously (assuming that mechanical was indeed not an issue in this event) the final link in this chain was that the final checklist was not completed properly. I would hope that everyone will learn from this mistake.
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It's better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool, than to open it and prove them right.
Flaperons wrote:There is a final check for the gear. It's called the Final Landing Check. I pointed this out earlier, but everyone jumped on the fact that it calls for Props max. THE FINAL ITEM ON THE FINAL LANDING CHECKLIST IS "LANDING GEAR - DOWN THREE GREEN". The purpose of a checklist is to ensure that nothing important ever gets missed. Having a routine mental check is obviously an excellent idea, but should your memory fail you, or distraction lead to you breaking your routine, the checklist is there supposedly to save your ass. Obviously (assuming that mechanical was indeed not an issue in this event) the final link in this chain was that the final checklist was not completed properly. I would hope that everyone will learn from this mistake.
So why wasn't the final checklist completed ? Telling everyone to always complete the final checklist means nothing if , for example it is routinely rushed through or worse treated as a do list instead of a check list. Does the school have a recognized and consitant SOP for single engine circuits and if so what mechanism are in place to make sure it is actually being followed ? I think everyone who is training on retractable gear aircraft should treat this as a wake up call and take a hard look at how they are operating their aircraft.
Strega:
Your constant negative and judgemental posts are IMO really starting to irritate posters who actually want to have an adult conversation on this site. Why are you not interested in posting constructive comments ?
Big Pistons Forever wrote:So why wasn't the final checklist completed ? Telling everyone to always complete the final checklist means nothing if...
In my opinion you are no more likely to remember a last minute gear check on final then the pre-landing checklist. The pre-landing should be just as ingrained in your head as the last min check.
I do, however, complete a final gear, flaps, clearance check before landing if I am PNF. But I don't have a higher priority for this than the pre-landing check that we do anyway.
THE FINAL ITEM ON THE FINAL LANDING CHECKLIST IS "LANDING GEAR - DOWN THREE GREEN".
If I were to follow that check on the Husky on Amphibious floats I would be landing with one wheel not down and locked.
Check lists be they written or from memory must be applicable to the machine you are flying at the moment and not for a small twin engine airplane that is being used to train pilots at Seneca.
This is a common problem in the training industry where you have pilots giving advice and their advice is limited to their exposure to a small area of aviation and an even smaller number of aircraft they have flown.
Airmanship is using common sense and being able to relate to what you are doing at the moment or are planning on doing.
High lighting a check item that is applicable to a specific airplane and making it seem to be the one and only way to do it is giving flawed advice.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Broadcast final 3 green at uncontrolled. At controlled I put my hand on the gear handle if I'm delaying at all.
Also, I wait until the prop(s) fall off the governor before full fine. Unless I'm getting thrown around real good.
I've never come close to forgetting. I forgot I'd lowered in the flare once and had to look quickly. Also a student said it was down one miserable night when it wasn't.
THE FINAL ITEM ON THE FINAL LANDING CHECKLIST IS "LANDING GEAR - DOWN THREE GREEN".
If I were to follow that check on the Husky on Amphibious floats I would be landing with one wheel not down and locked.
Check lists be they written or from memory must be applicable to the machine you are flying at the moment and not for a small twin engine airplane that is being used to train pilots at Seneca.
This is a common problem in the training industry where you have pilots giving advice and their advice is limited to their exposure to a small area of aviation and an even smaller number of aircraft they have flown.
Airmanship is using common sense and being able to relate to what you are doing at the moment or are planning on doing.
High lighting a check item that is applicable to a specific airplane and making it seem to be the one and only way to do it is giving flawed advice.
See Cat; this is why I keep coming back to my original point: You're an asshole.
What the @#$! is wrong with you?
I'm not throwing a blanket statement on every light twin, nor am I saying that the Baron CL applies to any aircraft but the Baron; I'm pointing out that the Baron has a checklist that is supposed to prevent just such an occurrance. In what dusty corner of your mind did you come up with the idea that the Baron checklists are not applicable to the Baron? Perhaps you should write a letter to Raytheon, reprimanding them for making non-applicable checklists.
Why would a professional, airline-geared FTU (and Seneca is only ONE of them) teach the students not to use all available tools? Now you are really confusing me.
And listen, you old fart; I'm sure if you decided to use the Baron checklist in your amphibian, one gear down would be the least of your problems.
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It's better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool, than to open it and prove them right.
High lighting a check item that is applicable to a specific airplane and making it seem to be the one and only way to do it is giving flawed advice.
What other way would you do it IN A BARON? Because the only other way I can think of is "Landing Gear - UP, NO GREEN", and I'm pretty sure that's not very good.
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It's better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool, than to open it and prove them right.
