Seneca College Baron Gear Up Landing

[Hedley]

the Baron has a checklist that is supposed to prevent just such an occurrance

Didn't work very well, did it?

[Flaperons]

Guess not.

[Dagwood]

Well I heard the same instructor almost had a gear up landing in Seminole owened by Toronto Airways a day earlier.

I heard that from an independent source as well... they were saved by the tower.

Bad things can happen to anyone. Glad to hear they're Ok.

[multiprop]

So, It was a single engine approach into Simcoe Regional and the Toronto Airways Semionole a day earlier was traning on the same exercise and another instructor taxing on the ground noticed the gear up and called tower. It seems to me that it being the same instructor he should have his wings clipped. i mean sure there is always the possibility that a pilot can forget something but man...this is why we have checklists. Regardless of all the bullshit here it was a careless decision buy the PIC. I'm glad everyone walked away but its time the TSB investigate the PIC and hopefully will determine, along with TC whether the instructor has the capability to teach at a level that is expected of him.

[_dwj_]

Regarding the usefulness of gear up warning devices. Anyone can make a mistake and forget the checklist. I don't pilot retractables because I KNOW that I would land gear-up at some point. A warning device is a useful safety measure (in addition to having good checklists and procedures) just to catch the one in a million (or 1 in 10, depending on the pilot) times you forget the gear.

And as for relying on the warning horn: I agree that isn't good either. Why not have a device that only warns you when you're too close to the ground to retract the gear (how long does it generally take?) but still high enough to safely to a go-around - say 100 feet agl. Then you wouldn't end up relying on it, and it would hopefully be embarrassing enough that you would train yourself to remember the gear next time. Whether you have your wife or an instructor sitting beside you, you won't want an automated voice shouting "you forgot the wheels, asshole" or whatever at you and you having to go around for another shot. Ideally it would broadcast on all your radio frequencies as well, just to add to the embarrassment and make absolutely sure you don't forget next time.

[Strega]

So, It was a single engine approach into Simcoe Regional and the Toronto Airways Semionole a day earlier was traning on the same exercise and another instructor taxing on the ground noticed the gear up and called tower. It seems to me that it being the same instructor he should have his wings clipped. i mean sure there is always the possibility that a pilot can forget something but man...this is why we have checklists. Regardless of all the bullshit here it was a careless decision buy the PIC. I'm glad everyone walked away but its time the TSB investigate the PIC and hopefully will determine, along with TC whether the instructor has the capability to teach at a level that is expected of him.

no no no,, Im sure hes learned from his mistakes,, after all, he is human.. NOT

[365TAS]

...If you're carrying passengers there is NO FUCKING WAY your approved SOPs tell you to land with your props anywhere but MAX Gov.... You think Porter ever flies into YTZ at Min Gov?

Actually we do, about 70%+ of the time. Depends on Wx, runway condition etc. A neat little button called the "Reduced NP" is pressed and the props will automatically go max on, among other reasons, the GA button being pressed, weight on wheels aka touchdown etc. Cuts the approach noise signature for the pax and those on the ground quite nicely, thanks. Now it's....

Your credibility just went down the shitter.

...just a guess...got your layoff notice yet?

[Cat Driver]

flaperons, accept my apology for not realizing you were quoting the check list from the Baron and not suggesting a generic check...my confusion came from reading the landing check list you posted that is supposed to be from the Baron POH.

BEFORE LANDING

1. Seat Belts and Shoulder Harnesses - FASTENED; Seat Backs - POSITION FOR LANDING
2. Fuel Selector Valves - CHECK ON (feel for detent & visually check)
3. Fuel Boost Pumps - OFF, OR LOW AS PER AMBIENT TEMPERATURE
4. Cowl Flaps - AS REQUIRED
5. Mixture Controls - FULL RICH, or AS REQUIRED BY FIELD ELEVATION (depending on AC series)
6. Flaps - APPROACH (15 degrees)
7. Landing Gear - DOWN
8. Flaps - FULL DOWN (30 degrees)
9. Airspeed - ESTABLISH NORMAL LANDING APPROACH SPEED
10. Propellers - HIGH RPM

I think it's pretty clearly worded. That is from Raytheon Aircraft, btw.

In the other post you said:

THE FINAL ITEM ON THE FINAL LANDING CHECKLIST IS "LANDING GEAR - DOWN THREE GREEN".

Thus my confusion and my assuming you were relating a generic check list for the simple reason " landing gear down" is definitely not the last item on that check list..

I am finished with discussing anything with you as it is apparent your lack of respect for those who are your elders is very evident from your constant belittling me for my being older and obviously more experienced than you is evident from your posts. Your are suggesting that age has dimmed my intellect and not only are my cognitive abilities degraded but you are so immature as to suggest my physical and body functions have also degraded to the point that in your mind I should be using depends.

flaperons those suggestions do me no real harm, but I would suggest that it does not raise your mental abilities much above a child and you if you are a working pilot you are making your colleauges cringe hoping you are not one of their workmates.

[AuxBatOn]

the Baron has a checklist that is supposed to prevent just such an occurrance

Didn't work very well, did it?

The checklist works great I'm sure. The user didn't make proper use.

AuxBatOn

[Flaperons]

Actually we do, about 70%+ of the time. Depends on Wx, runway condition etc. A neat little button called the "Reduced NP" is pressed and the props will automatically go max on, among other reasons, the GA button being pressed, weight on wheels aka touchdown etc. Cuts the approach noise signature for the pax and those on the ground quite nicely, thanks. Now it's....

Your credibility just went down the shitter.

...just a guess...got your layoff notice yet?

I stand corrected.

f
In the other post you said:

THE FINAL ITEM ON THE FINAL LANDING CHECKLIST IS "LANDING GEAR - DOWN THREE GREEN".

Thus my confusion and my assuming you were relating a generic check list for the simple reason " landing gear down" is definitely not the last item on that check list..

You are correct, Cat'sass. In my excitement, I blurred the lines between Raytheon's Landing Checklist, and Seneca's Final Landing Checklist for the Baron. I guess that makes all the difference, and obviously this Final Landing Check is inappropriate, even though they both ensure the same items are covered, yes?

[Hedley]

I don't pilot retractables because I KNOW that I would land gear-up at some point

That's incredibly honest, but a tad silly. Do you not wear pants with zippers
because you might have a pee, then exit the public washroom with your
dong hanging out?

The thing that gets glossed over here is PRIORITIZATION. Everyone seems
to think that every item on a checklist is of equal importance, and that just
isn't so.

You can make lots of mistakes in airplanes, and get away with them. Like
landing with only half-flap, or the props at cruise rpm, or the mixtures
still lean, or with your seatbelt undone, or ..... the list goes on, and on
and on, of less-important checklist items.

Every pilot needs to learn how to prioritize. For some reason, this
is not taught very well (if at all). In fact, the exact opposite seems
to be true - pilots are intentionally distracted from important stuff
by well-meaning people on the ground, who don't fly.

Every pilot triages stuff like this, even if they don't know they
are doing it:

1) need to know stuff
2) nice to know stuff
3) who cares

The gear, you NEED to know to lower it. Check it twice - once
during your downwind/in range checks, and again turning/short
final.

If I was in the flight training business, I would equip all my single
engine fixed gear trainers with gear handles, and if you forgot
to lower it, an electrical circuit would blast a siren that everyone
on the entire airport could hear, after landing.

This would teach people to check gear down EVERY TIME they
fly. Not just when they fly start flying retractables.

You'll probably think I'm looney, but in lieu of the above, I insist
on a "gear down" (and welded) from my primary students,
in fixed gear aircraft, so that they are checking gear from the
very first flight.

Similarly, I won't let my students fly nosewheel. They start off
with tailwheel ONLY. You start somebody with nosewheel, they
learn bad habits - leave your feet on the floor - that they have
to unlearn, when they start flying tailwheel.

Same for gear. Students need to lower/check gear FROM
THEIR FIRST FLIGHT.

I know you'll all think I'm nuts. So what else is new. Like
I could give a crap (shrug).

[Cat Driver]

Equipping all training airplanes with a gear selector lever is an excellent idea Hedley, as is this idea.

Similarly, I won't let my students fly nosewheel. They start off
with tailwheel ONLY. You start somebody with nosewheel, they
learn bad habits - leave your feet on the floor - that they have
to unlearn, when they start flying tailwheel.

To make sure you don't limit your self instructor wise make sure it has brakes on the right hand side. Instructors are hard to find these days so you don't want an airplane that some of them can't teach on.

[BusDriver]

Cat Wrote: ''flaperons those suggestions do me no real harm, but I would suggest that it does not raise your mental abilities much above a child and you if you are a working pilot you are making your colleauges cringe hoping you are not one of their workmates.''

I really hope I never have to fly with someone like flaperons or his attitude. You have reaffirmed my view that most Seneca grads are egotistical mammas boy's.

[Strega]

Cat what do you think,

I was chatting with a co-worker the other day, about the differences between conventional and nosegear airplanes. To make a long story short, I mentioned my thoughts are a Cessna 150, is no more difficult to handle properly, than lets say, a citabria, but- the 150 is VERY tolerant of poor technique, whereas the citabria is very INTOLERANT of poor technique. would you say this would be somewhat correct?

[Cat Driver]

than lets say, a citabria, but- the 150 is VERY tolerant of poor technique, whereas the citabria is very INTOLERANT of poor technique. would you say this would be somewhat correct?

That is correct, and remember the Citabria is one of the easiest to control on the ground of all the tail wheel airplanes that are used for training

[_dwj_]

I don't pilot retractables because I KNOW that I would land gear-up at some point

That's incredibly honest, but a tad silly. Do you not wear pants with zippers
because you might have a pee, then exit the public washroom with your
dong hanging out?

Perhaps that isn't the best example, because I've never seen anyone forgot to put their dick back in their pants after having a pee, but I've seen lots of people land gear up. The problem is that there is no obvious indication that you've forgotten the gear, and the warning horns aren't terribly useful.

The bottom line is: people land with the gear up regularly, and many of them are very experienced pilots who use correct procedures and checklists. Yet they STILL land with the gear up.

[Hedley]

the Citabria is one of the easiest to control on the ground of all the tail wheel airplanes

Yup, it's a pussycat. If a pilot has flown, say, a Luscombe,
he can jump into a Citabria without any checkout.

[testpilot]

the instructor had recently flipped a tail dragger also. that's two strikes in a relatively short time.

[Cat Driver]

and many of them are very experienced pilots who use correct procedures and checklists. Yet they STILL land with the gear up.

Your statement is wonky, if they used the correct procedures how can they land with the gear up?

It is far more dangerous to land an amphibian in the water with the gear down and there have been many fatalities from making that mistake, it is interesting to note that high time float plane pilots do this quite frequently for the simple reason their brain is wired to land on the water on straight floats, the conversion to amphibious floats is a real problem unless they are taught to never land the thing anywhere without identifying what they are landing on and then assuring that the gear is configured for that surface.

Vancouver has a fair amount of amphibs landing on the runway still configured for a water landing......this is not really life threatening but it can be expensive not to mention embarrassing.

[C23flyer]

Similarly, I won't let my students fly nosewheel. They start off
with tailwheel ONLY. You start somebody with nosewheel, they
learn bad habits - leave your feet on the floor - that they have
to unlearn, when they start flying tailwheel.

I know this isn't the training forum, though it probably should be given the foregoing discussion, but I'll ask anyway. I intend to get a checkout on a taildragger this summer, so until then, my experience on tailwheel is zero. Hedley, why was I taught to keep my feet off the brakes and on the floor, without an explanation that this would not be the case in all aircraft? Could you describe the foot position in a tailwheel for t/o and landing? What other bad habits will I discover when I start flying conventional gear? Thanks.

[mcrit]

Are you sure your instructor didn't say "Keep your heels on the floor"?. By keeping your heels on the floor (assuming the a/c has toe brakes) you are ensuring that you don't inadvertently ride the brakes.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am not much of a fan of the idea that certain airplanes are "easy to fly". At the risk of over generalizing, all certified airplanes are relatively easy to fly or they would not have gotten certified. However all airplanes (including the much maligned C 150 ) IMO are actually take care , attention, and skill to fly well. Flying well or poorly is ultimately a decision of the pilot. I think a C 150 can turn out an outstanding pilot if the instructor cares enough to insist on accurate aircraft control from LP 1 and the student is willing to put the effort into excelling.

With respect to preventing gear ups I will present what I started doing with my multi rating students. Towards the end of the course, on downwind I would block the view of the lower right hand circuit breaker panel with my right knee and then pull the landing gear motor circuit breaker. Two things would happen when the student selected gear down

1) He /she would see the gear is down but there was no green lights and give me a "OH MY GOD" look of shock, or

2) He/she would see the gear hand is down point to the 3 clearly not on gear lights and say "gear down 3 green"

Either way it was a memorable experience. I thought pretty hard about doing this exercise as it is IMO getting very close to area where the danger imposed is higher than the training value derived. In the end I elected to do it but kept my fingers around the pulled circuit breaker untill the student had made the gear call and then immediately got them to select gear up pushed the circuit breaker in and put the gear down. I wish to emphasize that I am not advocating this as an exercise that should be done , just one I have used in the past. I thought about posting it earlier but I figured I would just get flamed by the usual "know it alls". I decided to post it now because the thread has run its course and I figured most Avcanada readers are smart enough to make up their own mind on whether this is a good exercise or not.

Strega,Flaperons flame away , but I won't be paying any attention to your comments

[Cat Driver]

Allow me to jump in here...

You position your feet on the rudder pedals in a tail wheel airplane exactly the same as a nose wheel airplane...keep your feet off the brakes.

The best example of this is there have been tens of thousands of training hours flown on airplanes such as the Fleet Canuck and the Piper Pacer to name two and these airplanes do not have brakes on the right hand side.

[Cat Driver]

I know this isn't the training forum,

There could be a positive to that C23flyer if you are looking for advice because this forum has more experienced pilots who can give you valuable advice due to their experience level and understanding of the real world of flying.

[Strega]

I don't pilot retractables because I KNOW that I would land gear-up at some point

That's incredibly honest, but a tad silly. Do you not wear pants with zippers
because you might have a pee, then exit the public washroom with your
dong hanging out?

Perhaps that isn't the best example, because I've never seen anyone forgot to put their dick back in their pants after having a pee, but I've seen lots of people land gear up. The problem is that there is no obvious indication that you've forgotten the gear, and the warning horns aren't terribly useful.

The bottom line is: people land with the gear up regularly, and many of them are very experienced pilots who use correct procedures and checklists. Yet they STILL land with the gear up.

I dissagree,

In the aircraft that I fly most of the time, If the gear is up, you WILL be fast and high on final, even with the throttle closed, Many other aircraft encounter the same phenomenon in that the undercarriage when deployed adds drag to the aircraft.