Man dead after being stunned by Taser in Winnipeg

[joco]

Ok, some of you have good points, especially the one of the officer being downwind.... reminds me of trying to pi$$ against the wind... I was 5 (or so) when I discoverd that it does not work.

HOwever most comments are based on "poor officers, what else could they do?".

But we still have not addressed the core problem: Tasers are advertised as being harmless and yet they KILL. That is the problem!

Right after YVR there were 2 Ottawa force cops showing how harmless the tool is... one tasered the other on camera. I wonder what if it would have gone wrong on camera...?

[Donald]

But we still have not addressed the core problem: Tasers are advertised as being harmless and yet they KILL. That is the problem!

Exactly, aren't they supposed to be a "non-lethal alternative" similar to a bean bag gun? Why do so many people die? Why are tasers (especially in the US and not in this case apparently) used in cases where an officers life is not in danger? There is a clip on Spike's Amazing Videos show where an officer (american) tasers a woman during a traffic stop because she is verbally abusive. Hmmm....

'Nobody deserves to die that way,' dad says of teen hit with Taser

Michael Langan, the teenager who died after police zapped him with a Taser, may have been a high-school dropout who wandered the streets of Winnipeg's inner-city core, but he didn't deserve to die like that, his father says.

"Nobody deserves to die that way, no matter how many problems you had," Brian Minchin told CBC News on Thursday.

Minchin is still struggling to cope with his 17-year-old son's death Tuesday following an altercation with police officers in a back lane in the city's core.

Police say they pursued the teen into a back lane after reports of a smashed window on a Lexus, then zapped him with a stun gun when he refused to drop his knife.

Langan was rushed to hospital in critical condition but died soon after, marking the 22nd stun gun-related death in Canada since 2003 and the first for the Winnipeg Police Service since they began using the device in 2006.

Sitting on the peeling wooden steps of his inner-city rooming house, where Langan lived with him for the past three weeks, Minchin says he still can't believe his son is dead.

"That was the only thing I had in my life is my son. He's gone. I have nothing," Minchin chokes up, his eyes red-rimmed and his face unshaven.

"I love my son so much, he always used to say, 'I love you old man.' That's what he'd call me," he sobbed.

While he acknowledges he was no model father and his son was no angel, Minchin was proud of his son.

He said his son likely broke into the car to steal some money, perhaps for alcohol. "Teenaged kids, they do stupid things," he said.

But using an up to 50,000-volt electronic stun gun on his 145-pound, five-foot-four son was excessive, he says.

The teen's father is convinced that Langan would have put down the knife he carried for protection if the officers continued talking with him.

"If they would've talked to him longer, he would've put the knife down eventually," he said.

"There was no other thing they could've done? Wrestle him, tackle him to the ground, do something else, man," the father said.

Police say it's unclear what caused Langan's death. Autopsy results are pending.

'This is a very tragic event, there's no doubt about it,' Winnipeg police Chief Keith McCaskill said at a Wednesday press conference. (CBC)Winnipeg police Chief Keith McCaskill said the force plans a "complete and thorough investigation" of what transpired during the confrontation between officers and the teen.

"It's really difficult for me to make judgments on anything until I have all of the facts," McCaskill said in a hastily called news conference Thursday.

One of the questions the force will be looking at will be whether it was appropriate to deploy the electronic stun gun.

An investigation into why a Taser was used will be turned over to another police agency for a complete review before it is sent to an external Crown attorney, McCaskill said. A public inquest will also be held.

Meanwhile, Minchin plans to go panhandling so he can try to get enough money to buy new shoes and a suit for his son's funeral.

The date of the funeral has not yet been confirmed.

[LH]

The following is standard operating procedure for any police force and pre-dates tasers by at least 100 years.

1) A person armed with anything deemed to be a weapon that can be used to end another person's life will be warned ONCE to drop the weapon.

2) At the police person's judgement, that person may be warned a second time, depending on the circumstances.

3) If the warning(s) are ignored the police person is to take aim at the torso of the advancing person. They will NOT take aim at the hands, arms, legs or head of the advancing person. As you were instructed, one is to aim for the largest mass of the human body at all times which is also the biggest target and the object will always be to stop the advancing perpertrator as quick as possible.


Use pepper spray on some totally enraged person who means to cause you bodily harm and you will end up in either a body bag or the ICU Unit of your local hospital. Those who have been advised differently, I pray they will heed my advice for their own well being.

[2R]

If the father or sperm donour is looking for someone to blame .He should look in the mirror .As his failure as a father to teach his child any common sense and decency was probably the main cause of that death.

The Clash had a song out years ago " I fought the law and the law won " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u0wwCfoJ4

The clean version where nobody is spitting on the band

[JakeYYZ]

Why does it seem to be people heading to the dinner table that fall prey to this extra force?

[BoostedNihilist]

3) If the warning(s) are ignored the police person is to take aim at the torso of the advancing person. They will NOT take aim at the hands, arms, legs or head of the advancing person. As you were instructed, one is to aim for the largest mass of the human body at all times which is also the biggest target and the object will always be to stop the advancing perpertrator as quick as possible.

So, if the person is not advancing is this list applicable?

[Nark]

You're spilting hairs.

If said person is endangering the life of another.

Can you agree to that?

[Cat Driver]

There has to be some common sense used in these cases....if someone is threatening a police officer with a weapon such as a knife and they have been warned to drop it and do not the police have the right to use a taser or shoot the person if need be.

[Sheila]

The KID deserves more compassion since he grew up in a poor condition. Do people think these kids can think about bright futures at school, when they don't have a proper home? Or what if they don't like foster homes so they will hang out on the street, is there anyway someone could prevent that? I guess there must be some good foster homes. Some kids are getting through foster homes and don't get in serious trouble. I think the parents and family could really help them when they are in that situation because they have caring or affection from a parent. Maybe they should force parents to have better relationships with the kids and be more active especially when they are in a foster home. I know a parent was supposed to keep their kid off the street by not letting them hang out too much or with bad influences. It is a valid point about the parent of the teen.

[Edo]

Sheila

It has nothing to do with being poor. So you think the rich kid pointing a knife at a cop would have been treated differently?
Yes its too bad this kid died but i sure don't fell any worse for him just because he was poor.

[2R]

The KID deserves more compassion since he grew up in a poor condition. Do people think these kids can think about bright futures at school, when they don't have a proper home? Or what if they don't like foster homes so they will hang out on the street, is there anyway someone could prevent that? I guess there must be some good foster homes. Some kids are getting through foster homes and don't get in serious trouble. I think the parents and family could really help them when they are in that situation because they have caring or affection from a parent. Maybe they should force parents to have better relationships with the kids and be more active especially when they are in a foster home. I know a parent was supposed to keep their kid off the street by not letting them hang out too much or with bad influences. It is a valid point about the parent of the teen.

The father had seventeen years to teach his son to do the right thing and not the wrong thing.
The Police had seconds under pressure to try and get this person to do the right thing .He choose to do the wrong thing and got zapped .So now his family is playing the victims card ,and blaming everyone else for a decision that was made under pressure .A decision of life and death that well fed and well rested Judges and Jurists will not dare make at their slow leasurely pace in a calm and quiet court in case they make an error .And yet some people expect perfection from the police making split second decisons .
The father should apologise for putting the police in a position where they had to use force on his offspring.

[joco]

This is total bull$hit!
1. One kid is DEAD.
2. Enforcement agencies claim that tasers are safe. Read #1 above.
3. Taser.com intro page reads "Taser Protect Life" .. how ironic. Read again #1 above.
4. Model M26 mostly used under Benefits reads "TASER devices have among the lowest injury rate of any force option...." How come? The kid is DEAD!

It is my belief that officers now the taser as a weapon of convenience. Shoots to 10.6 meters through 2" of clothing. How easy, almost as easy as to turn off your cell phone.

And about the split second decision that's crap! First they get training as how to act under pressure, second they have the game plan even before they walk in. Same as an IFR approach.

The father should apologise ...

As for the above... you are not a PARENT. Are you? Blood is blood, doesn't matter what your kid did. He is your kid.
2R you are an IDIOT!

[ronjeremy]

..

[Sheila]

Maybe they are trained to get the job done in least amount of time as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if that was true.

Another unfortunate thing which I have been hearing alot of lately is people getting their wallets stolen from a vehicle. I must have heard 10 guys tell me in this in the past couple of weeks. They tell me because part of my job is to issue a certain id to people and I am starting not to believe this story. It is just happening so much, its unbelievable. Why are people leaving their wallets and other property in their vehicles anyway? Some people are weird.

[CD]

I didn't realize that police officers could tell the future and predict how a person will react once they arrive...

Oh please... didn't you ever see Minority Report or Timecop?

[CD]

Another unfortunate thing which I have been hearing alot of lately is people getting their wallets stolen from a vehicle. I must have heard 10 guys tell me in this in the past couple of weeks. They tell me because part of my job is to issue a certain id to people and I am starting not to believe this story. It is just happening so much, its unbelievable. Why are people leaving their wallets and other property in their vehicles anyway? Some people are weird.

A bit off-topic but it is happening a lot in the Ottawa area:

Cops urge Barrhaven residents to lock up
Barrhaven hit by rash of car break-ins
Fine drivers who leave car doors unlocked, Ottawa police officer says (or we'll Taser 'em ... just to be on-topic...)

[2R]

This is total bull$hit!
1. One kid is DEAD.
2. Enforcement agencies claim that tasers are safe. Read #1 above.
3. Taser.com intro page reads "Taser Protect Life" .. how ironic. Read again #1 above.
4. Model M26 mostly used under Benefits reads "TASER devices have among the lowest injury rate of any force option...." How come? The kid is DEAD!

It is my belief that officers now the taser as a weapon of convenience. Shoots to 10.6 meters through 2" of clothing. How easy, almost as easy as to turn off your cell phone.

And about the split second decision that's crap! First they get training as how to act under pressure, second they have the game plan even before they walk in. Same as an IFR approach.

The father should apologise ...

As for the above... you are not a PARENT. Are you? Blood is blood, doesn't matter what your kid did. He is your kid.
2R you are an IDIOT!

The only IDIOT is dead .How smart do you have to be to pick a fight with armed police ???
When The police shot dead John Dillinger .His father made a public apology for his sons behaviour.When the Chinese state shoot dead a criminal they send the family the bill for the bullet.
To many deadbeat fathers /spermdonors abandon their duties as fathers .Those who choose to give up on their children rather than be proper parents and teach their children some common sense should be jailed to break rocks in the hot sun.
Those parents who do not take the time with their duties and responsibilities are the reason
for most criminal activities not the poverty that their wallow in.
But the biggest idiot will be the taxpayer who will pay this mans lawyer to sue the police for doing their duty and the Judge who will give him money for the loss of his beloved son .I bet the state wil even pay for the funeral.The father should be sent the taser bill .
Boo Hooo another idiot lost a fight that they did not have to fight and you schumcks will pay for it .I know three people who could have had surgery with the money that is spent investigating the deaths of idiots.yeah blood is blood but so is picking a fight and then complaing about losing it afterwards.

[EastCoaster]

Okay.... For JOCO... first off... I'm not an idiot... I'm just as qualified to speak freely on here as yourself. Tasers in the force continuum training are to be used in response to a threat against the personal safety of the general public, the peace officers, or the person being tasered! How many times have you responded to a call where someone with a knife wants to stab you? I've done it. How many times have you attempted to fight a knife with pepper spray? I've done it. How many times have you been injured trying to keep others safe while being paid to do so? I've done. So... That being said... While I agree that there are way too many police officers out there that are not following the rules regarding the use of force, and that too many people have died needlessly as a direct result of this poor decision making, I think we need to improve our selection process for law officers rather than take away the tasers. Most of the time it is non-lethal technology, however it is supposed to be used as a last resort before using lethal response.

In November 2005 I joined Avcanada as a place do learn and discuss aviation, as well as provide advice to those that were new in the industry, and to draw on the experience of those with many more years than I. I guess it might be time to leave the group as this place has become such a festering hole to disect the latest headlines. I guess maybe I'm too old fashioned for such a forward thinking group of people.

[joco]

[quote="2R]... John Dillinger ....the Chinese state ....[/quote]

2R: nice examples... no comment. But you have good points about the dead beat parents. However, that is not the issue. Please focus = the tasers paid by you and me as taxpayers are not what they claim to be. Cops take the easy way out too often becasue 1) it is a button to push only; and 2) they are assured by their higher ups that the tasers are fine to use. That is all what I say.

EastCoaster: I have never called you an idiot. Have I?

Anyway, I've had enough with this section of the forum. If one is to post jokes, thank you for that, otherwise have a good one.

[flyer]

I think that the problem with tasers is selling and treating them as non-lethal(please don't say 'duh'). This has several consequences, obviously, some as stated by others that they are used as a convenience (as seen in several videos) by police or with undo thought, care etc., but what about the dumb kids/adults/crooks who believe tasers are non-lethal. If they survive holding a knife to the police, they get to tell their friends they didn't chicken out, whatever or think they can stand up to it, point being, they don't take it seriously. I have little to no sympathy for any thief and would never ask any police officer to risk his/her life where there is absolutely no reason (a down on his/her luck case is still NO reason to threaten harm to another person). They should have drawn their real guns and shot him if he still didn't drop the knife; only tasers if everyone involved, including policy makers, believe and expect the outcome to be fatal. If compassion is all that is keeping the guns in their holsters at this point, then maybe they could have pull their guns and had one officer stun him from behind if the guns didn't portray the seriousness of the situation but that is very unrealistic in any unplanned situation unless they were trained that way. Treating tasers as guns which 'might' not kill is the only way to make any effective use of them but that possibility is likely too far in the past now.

[EastCoaster]

Well stated Flyer! I agree 100%!

[Driving Rain]

Maybe they use the Taser because only 1/3 of gundowns meet policy.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/new ... e290de4f13

Monday, July 28, 2008


VANCOUVER - Most shootings by RCMP members do not meet the force's own standards for the use of deadly force, according to an internal RCMP report.

According to the report, of the 30 RCMP shootings countrywide in 2006 (the most recent year for which data are available), only 10 met the RCMP's test for using lethal force -- namely, to protect someone from death or "grievous bodily harm."

Another two were outside the officer's control, such as a gun going off in a struggle with a suspect. Nine violated RCMP policy -- such as an officer firing at a car to try to stop it -- and another nine were accidental, resulting from unsafe handling of a firearm.

The internal RCMP report, completed in early 2008 and obtained by the Vancouver Sun through Access to Information, says the number of shootings that violate RCMP policy is troubling.

"If the number of (non-compliant) incidents does not significantly decrease in future years, this would be cause for concern and clearly point to the need for additional initiatives to ensure that members are complying with the law and with policy when they resort to lethal force," the report states.

National RCMP spokeswoman Sgt. Sylvie Tremblay wrote in an e-mail that the force is concerned about accidental and non-compliant shootings, but such incidents are rare given the thousands of RCMP officers on the job.

Sgt. Tremblay said the purpose of the report was to identify ways the force can improve gun safety. "This could include activities such as incorporating new training methods or perhaps amendments to policy."

According to the report, accidental discharges and non-compliant shootings had tripled over the past two years -- there were just three of each in 2004 -- though it notes this may be a result of better reporting of mistakes.

The internal report also highlights some stark regional differences in how often officers use their guns.

In B.C., the number of police shootings has dropped dramatically in recent years, from 27 in 2002 to just nine in 2006. Most of that decline was due to a sharp reduction in officers shooting at vehicles.

In contrast to B.C., the report notes the number of shootings in Alberta has skyrocketed from just one in 2002 to eight in 2006 (peaking at 12 in 2005). The report notes Alberta now accounts for nearly one-third of all RCMP shootings, despite the fact fewer than 15 per cent of its members are stationed there.

"(Alberta) is still reporting almost twice as many incidents as would be projected based on member population," it states. The report states the high rate of police shootings in Alberta is "disturbing," but offers no explanation for why the province's numbers are so high.

The report on police shootings, prepared by RCMP national headquarters, involved a detailed review of every shooting incident, including any discipline received by the officers involved.

"In a few instances ... the discipline meted out was insufficient to the gravity of the hazard to public safety and human life," the report states. The report adds that, in some cases, officers who used their firearm improperly got off lightly if the error did not result in any injury or loss of life -- something the report argues is a mistake.

"These are high-risk incidents," it states. "The golden rule should be that (such cases are treated) as if someone had been seriously injured or killed."

Some of the report's other findings include:

- More than half (53 per cent) of all police shootings in 2006 were by officers with less than 10 years' experience. The report states this could be due to inexperience or the fact rookie officers are more likely to work in front-line policing and on night shifts than senior officers.

- Less than one-quarter (23 per cent) of the bullets RCMP officers fired at suspects in 2006 actually hit their target. The report says this "hit percentage" is in line with that of other police forces, but says it illustrates the need for officers to be reminded "of the importance of firing no more shots than necessary to neutralize a threat."

The report adds annual firearms training for members may need to be improved to better reflect real-world scenarios.

[2R]

"More training" is one of those warm fuzzy politically correct phrases that really means that they do not have a solution .
It is not the answer that is wrong ,but the wrong question .It lets the poiticians off the hook by passing the buck to the training department .Without providing the tools to do the job right.
What they should be asking is how to improve policing from its present state of understaffing ,under funding,underpaying,overworked ,overstressed ,overtimed out frontlines to where recruitement would not be a problem.Where people would be banging on the door for a good paying well repected job rather than lining up to be ridiculed by people who have never been in a street fight.
23 o/o percent hit rate is not that bad .The Milledgeville sheriiff fired of three clips out of a glock 9 mm at point blank range at a airplane taking off towards a police cruiser on the runway and missed every round (27 warning shots i think not).The best way to improve accuracy would be to get rid of those short barreled paperweights they carry and get some MP5's as that is an accurate gun or maybe a few desert eagles as that would get a fella instant 'respect' packing heat like that.And if you think that the S&W short barrel is not a paperweight ask a donut connoisseur how much paperwork is generated when he/she lifts one in defence of the laws of this land.Usually against someone who has no respect for Canada's Laws or any common decency.
Perhaps some training of the citizens would be more cost effective .
Some simple things that any citizen could be asked to do to make everyones life a little safer and could include:

-Let the police see your hands when stopped at a traffic stop
-Try to behave like a decent human being
-Do not start a fight and complain if you lose it
-Do not shoot at the police they may have to return fire and even with a 23o/o percent rate they have a lot more ammo than you and may actually hit you with a round ( even lucky ricochet's can hurt )
and one last very essential piece of life saving info that is not being taught in the modern schools or by deadbeat fathers
-Please drop the knife when asked by to do so by armed police


rant over

[grimey]

The Milledgeville sheriiff fired of three clips out of a glock 9 mm at point blank range at a airplane taking off towards a police cruiser on the runway and missed every round (27 warning shots i think not).

He got of 27 rounds, and 2 magazine changes, at point blank range on an aircraft that was taking off? What was he, a passenger?

The best way to improve accuracy would be to get rid of those short barreled paperweights they carry and get some MP5's as that is an accurate gun or maybe a few desert eagles as that would get a fella instant 'respect' packing heat like that.And if you think that the S&W short barrel is not a paperweight ask a donut connoisseur how much paperwork is generated when he/she lifts one in defence of the laws of this land.Usually against someone who has no respect for Canada's Laws or any common decency.

I think most of them would rather keep a 9mm or .40 than have the Desert Eagle. There's little purpose to it beyond bragging rights, and it's arguable less useful due to cost, reliability, and the magazine size (7 rounds when chambered for 50AE). Having a rifle, carbine, or shotgun in the cruiser isn't a bad idea, but not as a sidearm.