The COLD WAR Part Deux

[Axial Flow]

Here is a good Blog which I have read for the past two years....at first I read for entertainment value and thought the guy was paranoid like any person who watches too much CNN....but he really pulls his facts together well...

http://once-upon-a-time-in-the-west.blogspot.com/

Good read for communist lovers.

[mcrit]

Nuke 'em

[swede]

Sorry, move along now folks, no cold war coming. But if you want an informative encapsulation of recent events, have a read..http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article5862.html


and more on u.s. involvement..

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsS ... 000377.htm

[habit]

Surprise its Swede again with paranoid BS and anti-American horseshit, w, American domination blah blah Israel evill blah blah America bad communism good, jews are mean blah blah get a life you antisemite

[2R]

The biggest threat to peace in that region uses too much hair dye and it is polluting his brain.Picks a fight and is shocked when his new friends do not want to join him in murdering Russians.
Sign a ceasefire and then rant on about never surrendering ,The guy is nuts,way past insane ,on his way to being criminally insane.
Not much chance of peace in "His country" so long as he is running it .People who want peace do not hide behind their big friends and spit hate like a sore loser.

[Dex]

Surprise its Swede again with paranoid BS and anti-American horseshit, not even going to look at those sites as I know what they will spew, American domination blah blah Israel evill blah blah America bad communism good jews are mean blah blah get a life you antisemite

Cause we all know how anti-American that communist Nasdaq can be!

[grimey]

Yea, just think about how destabilizing 1700 M-16s and Reminton 700s are. I mean, they clearly cause way more chaos than the millions of Kalashnikovs used in every 3 world country.

[2R]

I bet the Germans and French are happy that the next big european conflict will not be fought in theirs streets again,in fact some might say that they might even encourage the arming of those looney toons and muppets in the caucasses .It will never go nuclear so a nice little war should be good for the arms industries of both countries

[Siddley Hawker]

Gonna be awfully chilly in Europe this winter if Russia turns off the gas.

[grimey]

I bet the Germans and French are happy that the next big european conflict will not be fought in theirs streets again,in fact some might say that they might even encourage the arming of those looney toons and muppets in the caucasses .It will never go nuclear so a nice little war should be good for the arms industries of both countries

I dunno, Russia just threatened to use nuclear weapons on Poland if they agree to station US missile defenses on their territory.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ie3N ... wD92IV55O0

[2R]

I think that there are a lot of Russians who would love an excuse to destroy the birthplace of Stalin as payback for all the kindness he showed ethnic Russians during the Soviet rule.But hey i have been wrong before

[2R]

I bet the Germans and French are happy that the next big european conflict will not be fought in theirs streets again,in fact some might say that they might even encourage the arming of those looney toons and muppets in the caucasses .It will never go nuclear so a nice little war should be good for the arms industries of both countries

I dunno, Russia just threatened to use nuclear weapons on Poland if they agree to station US missile defenses on their territory.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ie3N ... wD92IV55O0

Research the Turkish missile crisis or as you may know it the Cuban missile crisis for the answer to how this will end .

[JakeYYZ]

Russia played a trump card in its strategic poker game with the West yesterday by threatening to suspend an agreement allowing Nato to take supplies and equipment to Afghanistan through Russia and Central Asia.
The agreement was struck at a Nato summit in April to provide an alternative supply route to the road between the Afghan capital and the Pakistani border, which has come under attack from militants on both sides of the frontier this year.
Zamir Kabulov, the Russian Ambassador to Afghanistan, told The Times in an interview that he believed the deal was no longer valid because Russia suspended military cooperation with Nato last week over its support for Georgia.

…

Mr Kabulov also suggested that the stand-off over Georgia could lead Russia to review agreements allowing Nato members to use Russian airspace and to maintain bases in the former Soviet Central Asian states of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan.

…

His remarks are likely to alarm Nato commanders because the Taleban have been targeting the supply routes of the alliance this year, mimicking tactics used against the British in 1841 and the Soviet Union two decades ago. Nato imports about 70 per cent of its food, fuel, water and equipment from Pakistan via the Khyber Pass, and flies in much of the rest through Russian airspace via bases in Central Asia. It has not started using the “northern corridor” because the deal – covering nonmilitary supplies and nonlethal military equipment – has yet to be cleared with the Central Asian states involved.
The need for an alternative route was highlighted by recent attacks on Nato supply convoys, including one that destroyed 36 fuel tankers in a northwestern Pakistani border town in March. Four US helicopter engines worth $13 million (£7 million) went missing on the way from Kabul to Pakistan in April.

Link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 608250.ece

Afghanistan may be lost since Pakistani supply lines are compromised and Russia supply lines will also be lost.

US and Russian warships took up positions in the Black Sea today in a risky war of nerves on opposing sides of the Georgia conflict.

…

"Let's hope we don't see any direct confrontation," said Dmitri Peskov, the spokesman for the Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, as the Russians challenged the US policy of using military aircraft and ships to deliver relief supplies.
"The decision to deliver aid using Nato battleships is something that hardly can be explained," said Peskov. "It's not a common practice."
He said Russian naval forces were taking "some measures of precaution" around the Black Sea as the worsening dispute caused by Russia's recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia independence brought strong criticism from the key European countries most reluctant to sever relations with Russia.

Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/au ... ia.russia1

Russia’s verbal belligerence makes me wonder if they really want to try us to attack in the Black Sea. They know that the NATO presence is a major push back in their sea. I believe our naval units are better than theirs, but does Medevev want to try us? I am beginning to wonder how rational the Russian’s are going to be.

[Expat]

Russia has tried diplomatically to facilitate the separation of the two republics since 1995. No success. Then NATO bombs Serbia to the ground, and the West proclaims Kosovo independant. At the time Russia said that using the same standard, Ossetia and Abkhazia should be let free. Negative response from the west. At the same time the idiot Saashkavili decided to use his big friends as backers, and start killing Russian citizens living in the two republics. That was two weeks before the 8 Aug invasion, but nobody reported it. It made the press when Russia decided to use his power, the same way the west has done in Serbia, Iraq, and Afghanuistan. So what?
This has nothing to do with communism, or the Soviet Union. Russia has been pushed around since 1989, and just got tired of it. Russia only told Poland that if they agreed to the missile shield, they would be targeted as a potential threat, in case of war.
Misinformation in the west is getting worse.

[niss]

That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and
snakes, an aeroplane and Lenny Bruce is not afraid.
Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn - world
serves its own needs, dummy serve your own needs. Feed
it off an aux speak, grunt, no, strength, the Ladder
start to clatter with fear fight down height. Wire
in a fire, representing seven games, and a government
for hire at a combat site. Left of west and coming in
a hurry with the furys breathing down your neck. Team
by team reporters baffled, trumped, tethered cropped.
Look at that low playing. Fine, then. Uh oh,
overflow, population, common food, but it'll do to Save
yourself, serve yourself. World serves its own needs,
listen to your heart bleed dummy with the rapture and
the revered and the right, right. You vitriolic,
patriotic, slam, fight, bright light, feeling pretty
psyched.

It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.

Six o'clock - TV hour. Don't get caught in foreign
towers. Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself
churn. Lock it in, uniforming, book burning, blood
letting. Every motive escalate. Automotive incinerate.
Light a candle, light a motive. Step down, step down.
Watch your heel crush, crushed, uh-oh, this means no
fear cavalier. Renegade steer clear! A tournament,
tournament, a tournament of lies. Offer me solutions,
offer me alternatives and I decline.

It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.

The other night I dreamt of knives, continental
drift divide. Mountains sit in a line, Leonard
Bernstein. Leonid Brezhnev, Lenny Bruce and Lester
Bangs. Birthday party, cheesecake, jelly bean, boom! You
symbiotic, patriotic, slam bug net, right? Right.

It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel
fine...fine...

[2R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBIdH26U ... re=related

Big Bang theory

[swede]

As I said earlier in this thread, no cold war coming, hot war likely tho.. We are all on a big bus, and the driver(s) is a psychopath -

"Just a minor story, really, no need to turn your attention away from the political puff that is American electoral politics. Just something about Russia (you know the big country with tens of thousands of nuclear weapons and advanced delivery systems) and a clear WAR WARNING TO NATO"

Russia Issues War
Warning To NATO
The Earl of Stirling
8-30-8

As the attention of the America public is focused on the American election, with the Democratic Convention having just ended, and the announcement today of McCain's female running mate, and the Republican Convention next week, the public has missed something. Something not missed by Europeans, even mainstream European news media have given broad coverage to the story.

Just a minor story, really, no need to turn your attention away from the political puff that is American electoral politics. Just something about Russia (you know the big country with tens of thousands of nuclear weapons and advanced delivery systems) and a clear WAR WARNING TO NATO.

In what is the most serious international crisis since the Cuban Missile Crisis almost caused World War III forty-five years ago, Russia has issued a War Warning to NATO and America. "If NATO suddenly takes military actions against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, acting solely in support of Tbilisi, this will mean a declaration of war on Russia," said the Russian Ambassador to NATO, Mr. Dmitry Rogozin. Further, Russia is making it clear that military assistance to Georgia will be considered an act of war. Ambassador Rogozin likened the current crisis to the fevered diplomatic atmosphere in Europe just before the start of the First World War. World War I was said to start when "the lights went out in the chancelleries of Europe" and diplomatic measures failed.

A top Russian military figure, the President of the Academy of Geopolitical Studies (in Moscow) Colonel General Leonid Ivashov said "We are close to a serious conflict". With regard to the Georgia-South Ossetian conflict, General Ivashov said that one of the principal goals of NATO's "geopolitical operation" was to neutralize Russia as a global player in the run-up to a war with Iran.

The British publication, 'This is London', calls the Russian position, as articulated by Ambassador Rogozin, an "extraordinary warning to the West".

Another leading London newspaper, 'The Mail', said "Tensions between Russia and the West were ratcheted even higher today after Moscow warned that the American naval build-up in the Black Sea could be seen as a 'declaration of war'."

While I am not heading for the nuclear bomb shelter, I do think that this is serious. One of the main fears has been what the crazy neo-con Administration of George Bush and Dick Cheney would do in its final months in power. Would they begin yet a third war, this time with an Iran armed with advanced biological weapons of mass destruction capable of killing maybe a third of the human race? The answer to that is still up in the air, but it appears that the overall answer is much worse than anyone thought.

The Bush Administration funded a buildup of the Georgian Army and recently sent about a thousand US Marines to train the Georgian troops. Israel and the United States sold a large amount of military technology and hardware to Georgia. Israeli companies, headed by reserve Israeli generals, brought in excess of a thousand Israeli mercenaries into Georgia and two senior, recently retired Israeli generals provided senior command "consulting" to the Georgian General Staff. All of this turned very ugly, when on 8/8/08 the Georgian forces attacked lightly armed Russian peace keepers along with many innocent Russian civilians using volley fire from massed tubeless artillery. Over 1,400 men, women, and children were killed in their own homes without warning, in the opening minutes (with over 2,000 killed in the five day war). In response to this, Russia sent in her troops and most Georgian troops retreated (some "retreated" so fast that they threw away their uniforms, guns, and equipment as they ran home).

The Russians, by most accounts, behaved well and stopped short of the Georgian capital. However, to hear the neo-con political leaders in the United States, France, and the United Kingdom tell it, the Russians attacked a defenseless nation that had done nothing to provoke the attack. Increasingly the neo-con owned mainstream news media is spinning the story into one of Russian aggression, making the Russians out to be the bad guys and ignoring the murder of thousands of civilians by the Georgian/Israeli forces.

Russian's deputy military chief, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, has warned that NATO has already exhausted the number of naval forces it can have in the Black Sea under the Montreux Convention (an international treaty dating to 1936 that governs the number, type, and tonnage of warships allowed to pass the Turkish Straits ~ the Bosporus and the Dardanells ~ into the Black Sea) and warned Western nations against sending more ships. The Montreux Convention allows the NATO ships to stay no longer than 21 days and limits the total number to nine warships (the current number).

If the Convention treaty is violated by NATO it will be a technical state of war. Russia has warned Turkey that she will be held responsible if additional warships are allowed into the Black Sea; already Turkey has prevented some US naval ships from entering. The total tonnage limit on naval ships is 45,000 tons. The US sought to send the USNS Comfort and the USNS Mercy, hospital ships whose tonnages both exceeded 69,000 tons each, through the Turkish Straits but Turkey would not allow it. As the hospital ships are not really needed, this was simply an attempt by the Bush Administration to violate the Montreux Convention and to get by with it by insisting that no rational nation could object to hospital ships. General Nogovitsyn has pointed out that US Navy ships in the Black Sea have nuclear armed cruise missiles capable of striking at most of European Russia including St. Petersburg and that these ships are considered "a serious threat to our security".

The Russians suspect that the US Navy is delivering arms to Georgia under the cover of civilian aid. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said, "Normally battleships do not deliver aid and this is battleship diplomacy, this does not make the situation more stable".

Russian Admiral Eduard Balin (former commander of the Russian Black Sea Fleet) was quoted by Russian news media as saying, "Despite the apparent strength of the NATO naval group in the Black Sea....a single salvo from the Moskva missile cruiser and two or thee missile boats would be enough to annihilate the entire group. Within twenty minutes the waters would be clear." The Moskva is the world's only currently serving 'heavy battle cruiser' and the most powerful non-carrier surface ship in the world.

British neo-con leader, Prime Minister Gordon Brown will attend an unprecedented emergency summit of leaders of the EU's 27 member states this coming Monday, in Brussels, to discuss the EU's response to Russia's actions. Sanctions are expected to be on the agenda to punish Russia for its "aggression". Fears are being expressed in Europe that Russia may restrict oil deliveries to Western Europe over the next few days, in response to the threat of EU sanctions and NATO actions in the Black Sea. This would be a dramatic escalation of the Georgian crisis and would play hell with global oil markets.

In a related story, Lebanese television and other sources are reporting that the Israeli government has reached a "strategic decision on Iran". That Israel will strike Iran, eventually (alone if necessary). The Jerusalem Post says that the Israeli government is moving forward with plans for the purchase of special aircraft and working on receiving US government approval to use US controlled Iraqi airspace for an attack on Iran.

It is interesting that more and more publications, from the right, center and left (including pro-neo-con and anti-neo-con), are speaking of World War III. An interesting article by Stratfor (generally pro-Israel and pro-neo-con) and reprinted by finchannel.com (a strongly pro-neo-con publication) speaks of Turkey's Options in the coming Third World War.

What the crazy evil Bush/Cheney Administration has done is to move the world close to World War III by bringing the Russians into the neo-con ever growing nightmare of war; 8/8/08 was the Russian 9/11 brought to you by the same people who gave America its 9/11, Britain its 7/7, etc.

There are various theories as to why the United States (or more specifically why the neo-cons who control the US government) would want to push Russia into a global war; just as there are various theories why tiny Israel would want to involve itself in a battle against a massive nuclear power like Russia, who could turn Iran and Syria into nuclear armed states overnight if it chose to.

Many say that the neo-cons are simply crazy and that their maneuvers have failed. Others would say that the neo-cons are simply pawns in a larger Grand Strategy game that the global banking families have been playing for a couple of centuries and that a Third World War is required to establish the New World Order/global government that they intend to establish and establish soon. If the latter is the case, a little thing like advanced 21st Century warfare will get in the way. There is simply NO WAY that mankind can survive a Third World War, except for Divine intervention. The levels of destructive firepower and technology are simply too great.

Stirling

[Phaedrus]

Gordon Brown is a neocon now too? The Isrealis must've got to him huh?

While your quest for understanding is admirable Swede, your recent habit of getting news directly from Pravda is disturbing. And comments like 'George Bush backed a loser in Georgia' make me wonder what an ideal outcome would be for you. Would it be better or worse if western countries did not stand up to Russia?

[swede]

The west can certainly "stand up" to Russia, where warranted. I didn't know that included installing puppet imbeciles like Saskavilli who perpetrate civilian massacre and cry foul when their ass gets kicked out. I think bushco is still playing with fire. Russia is not the bastion of dolts, permanently defeated by years of cold war, that the U.S. administration fancies. Also, I seldom read pravda, I doubt the author I quote does either.

[Phaedrus]

I seriously doubt that anyone this side of the atlantic harbours any illusions about the nature of the Russian regime, despite what you think about Bush. Nevertheless, when Putin changed laws, installed a puppet president to succeed himself, then knocked over a neighbouring country, you voiced your concerns.......about Bush & co. Then you implicated the Isrealis. What would Putin have to do to get bad press from you?

You may not read Pravda much, but if you did you would see that their line on the current tumult is very similar to yours. And they're the only international media you can say that about. Also, the Guardian piece you quoted last week was sourced to them (not that many Guardianistas care...)

Credit you this: we are headed for war

[2R]

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Montreux Convention

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Signatory States: 9
Entry Into Force: 20 July 1936
Ratified by: Turkey, Great Britain, France, the USSR, Bulgaria, Greece, Germany, Yugoslavia, and Japan (with reservations).

In 1936, the former signatories to the Treaty of Lausanne together with Yugoslavia and Australia met at Montreux, Switzerland to abolish the International Straits Commission and return the Straits zone (the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmora, and Bosphorus) to Turkish military control. The Convention stipulates that:

Merchant shipping of any flag and with any cargo has freedom of transit in the straits during peacetime and during wartime whenever Turkey is not a belligerent. Turkey may, however, require merchant ships to stop at a station upon entering the straits for the purposes of sanitary and health control.
During wartime when Turkey is a belligerent, merchant shipping of countries not at war with Turkey has freedom of transit of the straits so long as those countries maintain their obligation of neutrality (e.g. not to provide support to another belligerent). Turkey may require such ships to commence transiting the straits during daylight hours.
During peacetime, light surface warships of all powers may transit the straits after giving prior notice to Turkey as required by the Convention. Turkey may waive the notification requirement if the warships are transiting for the purpose of providing humanitarian assistance.
The Convention applies specific individual and aggregate tonnage and numbers limits. These limitations effectively preclude the transit of capital ships and submarines of non-Black Sea powers through the Straits, unless exempted under Article 17 (see below).

Warships of non-Black Sea powers may not remain in the Black Sea longer than 21 days. CAPital ships of Black Sea powers may transit the straits provided that they do so in accordance with the Convention.

Article 17 of the Convention permits a naval force of any tonnage or composition to pay a courtesy visit of limited duration to a port in the straits, at the invitation of the Turkish Government. In such instances, the tonnage and numbers limitations of the Convention do not apply.

Naval auxiliary vessels specifically designed for the carriage of fuel, liquid or non-liquid, are not subject to the tonnage limitations or the provisions regarding notification. They are subject to other provisions regarding the transit of warships.

In time of war, if Turkey is not a belligerent, the passage of warships of non-belligerent states is subject to the same constraints as in peacetime. Turkey may, however, restrict the transit of belligerent warships. If Turkey is a belligerent or should Turkey feel that she is threatened by imminent danger of war, warship transit through the straits shall be left entirely to the discretion of the Turkish Government.

In the case of Department of the Navy (DON) involvement with the Open Skies Treaty, Annex J to that Treaty stipulates that observation flights under the Treaty shall not prejudice the Montreux Convention, the routing and notification of which shall be provided for in accordance with Article 23 of the Convention.

Discussion
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Turkey is a NATO partner, and the United States is obligated to take no action that would undermine Turkey's authority to control transit through or over the Straits, as provided for in the Montreux Convention.
In order to assure the passage of civil aircraft between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, the Turkish Government approves air routes available for this purpose. Civil aircraft may use these routes provided they give the Turkish Government, for occasional flights, a notification of three days, and for flights on regular services, a general notification of the dates of passage (Article 23).
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It would appear that the journalists(or in this case journo-nihlists) were being fearmongers as the Americans were only doing what they thought they were entitiled to do by the agreements in place .Fear not ,no one is going to destroy the west or the east over a dunghole like Georgia .Did not happen after Yugoland and those tensions .Nothing will come of this storm in a tea cup.The map of europe has just been re-drawn again .Lost count how many times that has happened.
Relax have a Beer and enjoy the long weekend

[sleepless2121]

just press Play http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt99E6zxlq0