Read it and weep Pappy

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swede
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Read it and weep Pappy

Post by swede »

Ole Pappy Bush's new world order is going down the toilet faster than the contents of a 26er goes down dubyas throat :rolleyes: . Now I am not being anti-bush, anti-semetic, anti whatever - or pro-putin. I am just trying to point out, that if the weaponry and know how captured by Russia in Georgia was indeed U.S. made (and I don't think the guardian would report that if it were incorrect), it goes as one of the biggest strategic blunders and embarrassments against U.S. interests imaginable. If so, bush and company and their advisors deserve to be tarred and feathered and then drug up in front of a very in depth tribunal. I think even ole grimey would have to agree with me on this one, but instead I'll stay tuned for the usual that my approach is far too simplistic, and the rhodes scholars like him need be the only ones qualified to comment :shock:

Georgia's military in tatters:

August 16, 2008
by Ian Traynor
The Guardian

Pity Georgia's bedraggled First Infantry Brigade. And its Second. And its hapless Navy.

For the past few evenings in the foothills of the Southern Caucasus on the outskirts of Joseph Stalin's hometown of Gori, reconnaissance units of Russia's 58th Army have been raking through the spoils of war at what was the Georgian Army's pride and joy, a shiny new military base inaugurated only last January for the First Infantry, the Army Engineers, and an Artillery Brigade.

A couple of hours to the west, in the town of Senaki, it's the same picture. A flagship military base, home to the Second Infantry Brigade, is in Russian hands. And down on the Black Sea coast, the radars and installations for Georgia's sole naval base at Poti have been scrupulously pinpointed by the Russians and destroyed.

Gori and Senaki are not ramshackle relics of the old Red Army of the type that litter the landscape of eastern Europe. "These bases have only recently been upgraded to NATO standard," said Matthew Clements, Eurasia analyst at Jane's Information Group. "They have been operationally targeted to seriously degrade the Georgian military."

"There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," said the general staff in Moscow. "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."

The "enormous arsenals" are American-made or American-supplied. American money, know-how, planning, and equipment built these bases as part of Washington's drive to bring NATO membership to a small country that is Russia's underbelly.

The American "train and equip" mission for the Georgian military is six years old. It has been destroyed in as many days. And with it, Georgia's NATO ambitions. "There are a few countries that will say 'told you so'" about the need to get Georgia into NATO," said Andrew Wilson, Russia expert at the European Council on Foreign Relations. "But many more will want to walk away from the problem. And for the next few years, Georgia will be far too busy trying to pick itself up."

If Georgia and NATO are the principal casualties of this week's ruthless display of brute power by Vladimir Putin, the consequences are bigger still, the fallout immense, if uncertain. The regional and the global balance of power looks to have tilted, against the west and in favour of the rising or resurgent players of the east.

In a seminal speech in Munich last year, Putin confidently warned the west that he would not tolerate the age of American hyperpower. Seven years in office at the time and at the height of his powers, he delivered his most anti-western tirade

Pernicious

To an audience that included John McCain, the White House contender, and Robert Gates, the US defence secretary and ex-Kremlinologist, he served notice: "What is a unipolar world? It refers to one type of situation, one centre of authority, one centre of force, one centre of decision-making. It is world in which there is one master, one sovereign. This is pernicious ... unacceptable ... impossible."

This week, he turned those words into action, demonstrating the limits of US power with his rout of Georgia. His forces roamed at will along the roads of the Southern Caucasus, beyond Russia's borders for the first time since the disastrous Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s.

As the Russian officers sat on the American stockpiles of machine guns, ammunition, and equipment in Gori, they were savouring a highly unusual scenario. Not since the Afghan war had the Russians seized vast caches of US weaponry. "People are sick to the stomach in Washington," said a former Pentagon official. And the Russians are giddy with success.

Celebrating the biggest victory in eight years of what might be termed Putinism, the dogged pursuit by whatever means to avenge a long period of Russian humiliation and to deploy his limited range of levers - oil, gas, or brute force - to make the world listen to Moscow, the Russian prime minister has redrawn the geopolitical map.

In less than a week, Putin has invaded another country, effectively partitioned Georgia in a lightning campaign, weakened his arch-enemy, President Mikheil Saakashvili, divided the west, and presented a fait accompli. The impact - locally, regionally, and globally - is huge.

"The war in Georgia has put the European order in question," said Alexander Rahr, one of Germany's leading Russia experts and a Putin biographer. "The times are past when you can punish Russia."

That seems to be the view among leading European policymakers who have been scrambling all week to arrange and shore up a fragile ceasefire, risking charges of appeasing the Kremlin.

"Don't ask us who's good and who's bad here," said Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister, after shuttling between Tbilisi and Moscow to try to halt the violence. "We shouldn't make any moral judgments on this war. Stopping the war, that's what we're interested in."

His boss, President Nicolas Sarkozy, went to the Kremlin to negotiate a ceasefire and parade as a peacemaker. Critics said he acted as Moscow's messenger, noting Putin's terms then taking them to Tbilisi to persuade Saakashvili to capitulate. Germany also refused to take sides while Italy warned against building an "anti-Moscow coalition".

That contrasted with Gordon Brown's and David Milliband's talk of Russian "aggression" and Condoleezza Rice's arrival in Tbilisi yesterday to rally "the free world behind a free Georgia".

The effects of Putin's coup are first felt locally and around Russia's rim. "My view is that the Russians, and I would say principally prime minister Putin, is interested in reasserting Russia's, not only Russia's great power or superpower status, but in reasserting Russia's traditional spheres of influence," said Gates. "My guess is that everyone is going to be looking at Russia through a different set of lenses as we look ahead."

In Kiev certainly. Ukraine's pro-western prime minister, Viktor Yushchenko, Saaksahvili's fellow colour-revolutionary, is chastened and wary. His firebrand anti-Russian prime minister, Yuliya Tymoshenko, has gone uncharacteristically quiet.

Invasion of the Ukraine?

"An invasion of Ukraine by 'peacekeeping tanks' is just a question of time," wrote Aleksandr Sushko, director of Kiev's Institute of Euro-Atlantic Cooperation. "Weimar Russia is completing its transformation into something else. If Russia wins this war, a new order will take shape in Europe which will have no place for Ukraine as a sovereign state."

All around Russia's rim, the former Soviet "captive states" are trembling. Even Belarus, the slavishly loyal "last dictatorship in Europe", went strangely silent, taking days before the regime offered Moscow its support. "Everybody's nervous," said Wilson.

The EU states of the Baltic and Poland are drumming up support for Georgia, with the Polish president Lech Kaczynski declaring that Russia has revealed "its true face". That divides the EU since the French and the Germans refuse to take sides and are scornful of east European "hysteria" towards Russia. Rahr in Berlin says the German and French governments are striving to keep the Poles and the Baltic states well away from any EU-led peace negotiations. It was the Germans and the French who, in April, blunted George Bush's drive to get Georgia into NATO. They will also resist potential US moves to kick Russia out of the G8 or other international bodies.

There are many who argue that Putin's gamble will backfire, that he has bitten off more than he can chew, that Russia remains weak, a "Saudi Arabia with trees" in the words of Robert Hunter, the former US ambassador to NATO.

Compared to the other rising powers of China, India or even Brazil - the companions referred to as the BRIC - Russia does indeed appear weak. Its economy struggles to develop goods or services, depends on raw material exports and on European consumption and the price of oil for its current wealth.

Resources

But Putin's talent is for playing a weak hand well, maximising and concentrating his limited resources, and creating facts on the ground while the west dithers.

"There is a lack of a clear and unified European policy towards Russia," said Clements. In the crucial contest over energy "the Russian strategy of keeping control of exports and supply is outpacing any European response".

Putin may now calculate he can call off the dogs of war, having achieved his aims and able to pocket his gains very cheaply. The Georgia campaign becomes the triumphant climax of Putinism.

"In politics, it is very important to know one's measure," wrote Aleksey Arbatov, director of Moscow's International Security Centre. "If Russia continues to inflict strikes on Georgian territory, on facilities, on population centres, we may lose the moral supremacy we have today."

But Wilson and many in eastern Europe worry that rather than being the climax of Putinism, the Russians in Georgia signal the start of something else. "This may not be a culmination, but only step one," said Wilson. "If you don't stop this kind of behaviour, it escalates."

____________

This just gets better :roll:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 02432.html
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habit
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Re: Read it and weep Pappy

Post by habit »

The fact the US was supplying Georgia has been known for years, try again Swede this one won't fly and have you gotten your papers ready for your new life in Iran?
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swede
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Re: Read it and weep Pappy

Post by swede »

Doesn't alter the fact that pappys nwo plans have hit the crapper. The neocons should pay attention to their own backyard and quit diddling with the other side of the globe.



TBR News August 18, 2008


The Voice of the White House

Washington, D.C., August 17, 2008: “Someone in my office, loud of voice and dim of wit, asked rhetorically, on Friday last, what Russian wanted by its invasion of Georgia. Like most of the morons working here, they never read the reports that abound , so I took the trouble to tell them what the Russians want.

They want, primarily, to destroy Georgia as a military force, albeit a force that had been entirely controlled and armed by the United States.

They want to locate and destroy the huge stocks of weaponry, to include small arms, light infantry weapons, armored vehicles and trucks supplied to Georgia by the United States.

They have done this.

In short, they want to so destroy Georgia as a military power that it will take ten years to even think about rebuilding

They want to establish a powerful military presence in South Ossetia and Abkhazia so that a US and Isreal-backed Georgia will never dare to attack across their borders again.

Another goal of Russia, it is said, is to so ruin the international, and internal, reputation of the unstable Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, that the Georgian people will either depose or kill him.

And most of all, the redoubtable Vladimir Putin, who is indeed running the show, wants to show Bush and all the weak but willing east bloc peoples, what can happen to them when they lick the anus of a helpless Washington

. NATO? A force to reckon with? Not likely.

The Belgian army is better equipped than the American one and neither of them could make a dent on Russia in a land war.

The once mighty and tererrible American military is today a soggy mess, its ground troops basicially ruined by the five year marathon guerrilla combat in Iraq and Afhanistan, and their vaunted armored vehicles and helicopters all in maintainence warehouses in Texas, destroyed by the desert sands of Iraq.

If Russia were to attack Poland or the Ukraine tonight, all Bush could do would be to run into his White House bunker and soil his pants whille Cheney hid in his own Command Bunker and shouted threats into the chemical toilet.

Parenthetically, in England, one of Rupert Murdoch’s sleazy tabloids said that Putin threatened to nuke Poland. Of course Putin never said this and anyone who would believe something written in a Murdoch paper or presented on his rabidly right-wing FOX news should have a lobotomy.

NATO? Trust it not, sir, it shall prove a snare and a delusion, as Patrick Henry said in his brilliant speech to the Virginia Houe of Burgesses.

The balance of the world has shifted in six days, moved by hubris, the stupidity of Washington and Tel Aviv, and the manic president of Georgia

I told all of this to my airheaded fellow worker and when I was done, they said I was crazy.

Tell people that a huge hurricaine is bearinig down on some part of Florida or the Gulf Coast where they are living and this type immediately sets out to have a picnic on the beach!


ps - as far as living in Iran goes, I would not set foot in an islamic country short of in a pine box. Islam probably constitutes the greatest threat to world security there is and it is only getting worse.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/13092 - this is just the thin edge..

more on the Georgian debacle http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/opini ... ref=slogin
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Re: Read it and weep Pappy

Post by grimey »

Swede, when did you contract syphilis?
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swede
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Re: Read it and weep Pappy

Post by swede »

Come on now Grimey, don't tell me you weren't around for Pappy's NWO 1000 points of light speech at the beginning of the first Iraq war mess? Pappy's crazier than a loon, he actually thought in his delusion that a unipolar world with the U.S. at the top was gonna last for what? - a thousand years like the 3rd reich was planned? Pappy must be real proud of his drunken offspring right about now. I think it is funny to see that incompetent bunch of clowns be ridiculed daily on the world stage by Russia under Putin, who were supposedly relegated to histories dust bin at the close of the cold war. Funny how tides turn don't you think.
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Re: Read it and weep Pappy

Post by Surly Joe »

I don’t usually write much on this forum but will offer my two cents on this one.
The US foreign policy is a joke as is our stance on governments around the world. It is no surprise to me that the west…specifically the US is regarded with such disdain by so many populations around the world. I’m not talking about the foreign governments; I’m talking about the people of these foreign lands. I’ve travelled enough to see this first hand. These people see their government as an oppressive regime being propped up by US financial interests. Saudi specifically comes to mind. These people don’t hate our people; they hate what’s being done to them as you would too. It’s the same in large areas of Europe and Africa.

I am a conservative. I believe in a fiscally sound government that looks after its people and protects the liberties of its people. This is not what the US represents any longer. Can anyone actually look south of the border and not see what has become a banana republic with a few wealthy individuals manipulating the media and pursuing its own agenda without regard to its own citizens? What is with a country that legitimizes torture by doing it off shore in a foreign land that it still has sanctions on for being communist? How does that hold any water when they gleefully go to Red China and seek to expand economic ties? What’s wrong with Cuba? I’ll tell you what’s wrong. Money. It’s only about money and that’s what it’s always been about. Guatemala, Chile, Shaw of Iran, Iraq….blah blah blah..
Oh Yes, it’s about freedom. Bullshit!!
How did the Patriot Act pass? Ben Franklin said it best: “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”

The US is pursuing a foreign policy of imperialism and nothing more. It takes great pains to push its economic agenda on other countries with no regard for the consequences to its own people or those of the other countries. All that’s it has any regard for is money and its corrupt economic elite. It cares very little for neither the people of Sudan nor the citizens of New Orleans.

Georgia started this scuffle with Russia. Russia was supplying these people with passports, medicine, education, infrastructure and everything that citizens need to live a normal life. This was going on for 16 years so what happened? A pipeline. That crackpot in Georgia started it. Let’s not forget who started it. I’ve worn the uniform of this country and I’ve travelled a lot in this world but I’ll be damned if I’m going to go fight in a war that Bush is provoking through a surrogate nut job in Georgia. Let him rot. Oh yeah CondaSleeza Rice is nothing but George Bush’s errr....I mean “Dick” Cheney’s whore.

Let’s not kid ourselves. We are being manipulated and I don’t like it. Russia has no right to tell Poland what to do but the US does not have any right to be so hypocritical and indignant about Cuba. Let’s see someone put missiles in Cuba…oh wait a minute!

Don’t get me wrong. I love this country. I don’t believe in communism and I believe that capitalism is the best way but it must also be tempered with social justice and a world vision of justice for all. I believe the mission in Afghanistan is a noble cause and one that is worthy of our contribution. I thank those brave men and women daily in my heart for what a truly honorable thing that they are doing trying to bring nobility and liberty back to those people’s lives despite their political leaders.

That’s the end of my rant. Thanks for reading.
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grimey
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Re: Read it and weep Pappy

Post by grimey »

grimey wrote:Swede, when did you contract syphilis?
swede wrote:Come on now Grimey, don't tell me you weren't around for Pappy's NWO 1000 points of light speech at the beginning of the first Iraq war mess?
So 1988 then? The thousand points of lights speech was long before the beginning of the first Iraq war.
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