Cessna 172 cuts off Lear 60 at YQA Muskoka . . on purpose .

[AuxBatOn]

It's 5 minutes before entering the zone.

It's actually 5 minutes prior to commencing the approach for IFR traffic... For a full procedure approach, the approach usually starts over the navaid.

AuxBatOn

[square]

I just call 15 miles out. Speed kills, fly a Cessna.

[mag check]

Well, our MANOPS requires that we we make sure all the traffic is aware of the position of the other traffic.

You have choices here:

1. GABC reports their position. You say "FXYZ has the traffic. We'll follow them (or extend our downwind, or whatever)"

2. GABC reports their position. You say nothing.

Choice 1: FSS says "roger" and our requirement to be sure you are aware of the traffic is covered.

Choice 2: FSS is required to say something about the traffic. If you don't reply to that, FSS is required to say something about the traffic. You don't reply to that, FSS is required to say something about the traffic. Need I go on?

Thanks for your reply,

If it actually worked like that, then that would be truly sweet, however, it is not in reality how it happens, is it?
what really happens is: GABC reports their position, FSS reports GABC's position to each aircraft in the zone, in turn. Then, because that took soooooooo long to do, the other aircraft in the zone haven't made their REQUIRED calls, so now FSS starts all over again asking for position reports, then relaying to the other aircraft, and so on, and so on..........
This is a very real problem, and has even been named as a contibuting factor in an accident with an amphib 180 just south of YQA.
It's time for FSS to follow the same air regs that all the pilots have to follow, instead of their ops manual.

[aviatrixfss]

mag check

Are your initials RD by any chance? If so, this is just more of your usual BS.

I worked YQA RAAS for 6 years, and had to put up with SF's BS as well as yours. I feel sorry for YTS now that they have to deal with you.

[polar one]

aux bat wrote:

just stating that making an accurate ETA proves to be hard when your 5 minutes call is 60 nm out and you're still 20-30000' higher than your PT/circuit altitude

I would suspect it is 60 miles in five minutes is...ah 12 miles a minute...720 miles an hour, and you have to come down 20-30K in that time...I didnt realize the type of machine you were actually flying as you had mentined some 300 kts before.

Or maybe you meant 5 miles before entering the MF zone...I am giving you some wiggle room here to save face.

[AuxBatOn]

We can do 9-10 miles a minute. Whatever you math is... I initiate the call usually around 60 nm (getting center to switch me over and stuff) Slowing down 300 kts means going from a GROUND SPEED(that's what important right?) of roughtly 550 kts to roughly 250 kts, which is well possible at 230 below 10K.

[mag check]

mag check

Are your initials RD by any chance? If so, this is just more of your usual BS.

I worked YQA RAAS for 6 years, and had to put up with SF's BS as well as yours. I feel sorry for YTS now that they have to deal with you.

No, sorry doll, not me.
I know well who you think I am, but sorry to disapoint.
I do remember you though, you were likely the one who spoke so close to the mike, that noone could understand you. Hows Buttonville treatin yah?

[Cat Driver]

Did she breath heavy in the mike when she heard your voice on the air?

This is getting better by the minute.......

......somehow though I tend to believe the people who work for FSS rather than pilots if for no other reason than to work for FSS one has to have at least a normal IQ.

[lilfssister]

HEY NOW!

Three of our 6 tested at over 140 IQ points!

[Cat Driver]

Three of our 6 tested at over 140 IQ points!

I know Sis that is why I tend to believe the FSS types.....

.....when you are talking to pilots with an IQ over 140 you don't know which one of the six that added up to 140 to believe.

[lilfssister]

[GilletteNorth]

Mag, sorry, you are like every person I've ever talked to trying to make the situations seem more complicated than they are. Even three aircraft in the circuit doing circuits takes only a few seconds to sort...

You continue to imply the largest aggravating factor is FSS talking too much...

Once FSS confirm each aircraft is aware of each other, there is no further need to continue 'tying up' the frequency. That's why pilot's are required to make the mandatory calls, the updates ensure the FSS don't have to repeatedly call them.

IFR aircraft trying to airfile on the MF are a real source of problems with regards to frequency use. However I've found this to be extremely rare. If an aircraft confirms it's unable to contact the FIC using the enroute freq's and insists FSS take the flight plan, we must comply. Don't blame us for ensuring their safety is covered vis-a-vis flight plans if they do insist. Maybe you should talk to the pilots and insist they file on the ground.

I've said it before, if pilot's think there is a problem with the frequency being so crowded that they can't be bothered to make calls, or respond, either stop flying or call the appropriate Nav Canada manager and make your views known. This sort of thing is taken seriously.

[IFRATC]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned. I think there are two significant factors that have to be brought to everyones attention here.

1. Working this particular piece of airspace I can tell you that as a controller I have absolutely NO IDEA what the active runway at YQA is. I guess I could go and solicite the info from TS FSS but in reality I don't really care what runway is being used by VFR a/c in the circuit. My only concerns with the control zone are IFR aircraft and if required SVFR aircraft.

2. Prior to clearing an aircraft for the approach at YQA on most occassions the a/c will be asked what approach they're planning. If I can accomodate this based on traffic the aircraft will be "cleared for an approach" or if required it will be "cleared to YQA for the RNAV 18/36 via XXXXX fix". My point is this. If cleared for a specific approach especially with additional restrictions attached the aircraft will not deviate from this clearance (except for flight safety) because they are now on the MF.

In my opinion the Lear did nothing wrong except maybe wait to long to take action against conflicting traffic. The cessna pilot displayed extremely poor airmanship in this case.
One other side note. Those of you bashing TS FSS should be ashamed. They are not there to be an asshole for your benefit. Take a moment to think...they do an exceptional job with what they have and the workload that is placed on them. I deal with them on a dialy basis, so if anyone can give an opinion on there professionalism I think it would be me. This incident was ONLY just that because of their professionalism. Give your heads a shake you idiots.

IFRATC

[mag check]

Gosh everyone, I didn't think I would be so sucessfull in getting all these FSS folks so upset, but I do take pride in my work

Interesting that they have time to call me an idiot, and yet they have NOTHING to say about the TSB report, that states that a contributing factor in an aircraft CRASH, was their continuous chatter.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Did she breath heavy in the mike when she heard your voice on the air?

This is getting better by the minute.......

......somehow though I tend to believe the people who work for FSS rather than pilots if for no other reason than to work for FSS one has to have at least a normal IQ.

Now THATS some funny stuff

[patter]

The CADOR was filed on the hearsay of the 182 pilot.
Personal comments were added.
There is another one in the system that is on this airport added by Nav Canada that is again hearsay.
I would think that hearsay CADORS would be filed through System Safety or the TSB.
I would think Nav Canada would want to steer along ways away from hearsay.

[aviatrixfss]

mag check

Sorry doll, not me. I have been a pilot for over 20 years and FSS for 15, I know how to speak into a mike. I have never had a pilot tell me he couldn't understand me. I have also heard my tape checks...no problem there.

Your postings sure make you sound like RD...maybe he is rubbing off on you.

[aviatrixfss]

mag check

BTW Buttonville has been closed for 5 years now. Also, it was an ATC person who called you an idiot, not FSS, although I agree with his assessment.

[small penguin]

In my opinion the Lear did nothing wrong except maybe wait to long to take action against conflicting traffic.

Unless I missed something, the Lear did nothing when he found out he was on a collision course with the 172.

[AuxBatOn]

In my opinion the Lear did nothing wrong except maybe wait to long to take action against conflicting traffic. The cessna pilot displayed extremely poor airmanship in this case.

So did the Lear pilot. Why take the opposing runway? Get there 3 minutes earlier? Why request the IFR approach if it wasn't for training when conditions seemed okay for a visual approach (it might have been for currency)?

AFAIK, the Lear pilot was REQUIRED to give the type of approach, transition and landing runway to center before going on 126.7 and the MF and he is should to do the same on 126.7 and is required on initial call on MF.

Example:

CLEARED TO THE LETHBRIDGE AIRPORT FOR AN APPROACH.

When such a clearance is issued by ATC and accepted by the pilot, the pilot has the option of conducting any published instrument approach procedure. In addition, the pilot also has the option of proceeding by the route so cleared by ATC in a previous clearance, by any published transition or feeder route associated with the selected procedure, or by a route present position direct to a fix associated with the selected instrument approach procedure. Pilots who choose to proceed to the instrument procedure fix via a route that is off an airway, air route or transition are responsible for maintaining the appropriate obstacle clearance, complying with noise abatement procedures and remaining clear of Class F airspace. As soon as practicable after receipt of this type of clearance, it is the pilot’s responsibility to advise ATC of the type of published instrument approach procedure that will be carried out, the landing runway and the intended route to be flown. [/b]

The pilot-in-command of an IFR aircraft who intends to conduct an approach to or a landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome, whether or not the aerodrome lies within an MF area, shall report:

(a) the pilot-in-command’s intentions regarding the operation of the aircraft

(i) five minutes before the estimated time of commencing the approach procedure, stating the estimated landing time,

If you read a little further in para 9.12...

In addition to these requirements, pilots operating aircraft under IFR into an uncontrolled aerodrome, when the weather conditions at the aerodrome could permit VFR circuit operations, are expected to approach and land on the active runway that may be established by the aircraft operating in the VFR circuit. Pilots operating aircraft under IFR at an uncontrolled aerodrome do not establish any priority over aircraft operating under VFR at that aerodrome. Should it be necessary for the IFR aircraft to approach to and/or land on a runway contrary to the established VFR operation, it is expected that appropriate communications between pilots, or pilots and the air-to-ground facility, will be effected in order to ensure there is no conflict of traffic.

I think that too many IFR traffic think they have priority over VFR traffic when in case, that is totally wrong. IMHO, the Lear should know better. The guy(s) flying it is a(are) professional pilot(s) and he(they) failed to bring the airplane to destination in a safe manner, which should be his(their) #1 priority. That(those) guy(s) should get some remedial training...

[Cat Driver]

Should it be necessary for the IFR aircraft to approach to and/or land on a runway contrary to the established VFR operation, it is expected that appropriate communications between pilots, or pilots and the air-to-ground facility, will be effected in order to ensure there is no conflict of traffic.

What is so difficult to understand about this simple issue?

[small penguin]

Shiny airplane? White shirt, black tie? Golden eppollettes?(sp) E-penis syndrome? (or the aviation equivalent)

[2R]

Shiny airplane? White shirt, black tie? Golden eppollettes?(sp) E-penis syndrome? (or the aviation equivalent)

What is your point ?

[small penguin]

Just replying to Cat. The many ways I can think of that some pilots like to ... impose themselves? As the pilot(s) of this Lear did at this airport.

[Flying Nutcracker]

So here we all are, professionals discussing basic knowledge and airmanship like it's kindergarden all over again...

I look at it this way... one in the circuit, easy to coordinate. Two in the circuit, I am outnumbered and things will be hard to coordinate, adapt to established circuit (especially when there are smaller and slower aircrafts involved where the experience and currency level may or may not be as high as me who flies commercially on a daily basis). Airmanship dictates that you always take the conservative route, not just for yourself, but also for all parties involved in the interest of everyones safety.

Keep it simple and polite. Demands will sometimes (argueably) result in discussion that leads to too much chatter, as has been complained about so many times on this board.

The communication as laid out in CARs and AIM is for everyone to follow, in the interest of maintaining situational awareness for all parties involved. When someone comes in and disrupts the flow already established, by "butting" in for self convenience, it results in more chatter, more confusion and ultimately (argueably) thus comprimising safety (airmanship).

It is not too hard to take the time to go the long way as it gives you more time to get the bigger picture before you barge in to an airport for landing, thus giving everybody breathing room to focus on more things than just wondering what the other guy is actually doing.

It's a good discussion, but as it has been proven again and again on this board... the fingerpointing is always the winner, not courtesy!

And to all FSS people... thank you for your calm and professional patience with all us pilots trying to induce chaos!

FN

[Flying Nutcracker]

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