Cessna 172 cuts off Lear 60 at YQA Muskoka . . on purpose .

[Cat Driver]

You seem to have a real issue with pilots who fly for a living small penguin.

Maybe you should get some counselling for that phobia?

If you get out my way maybe I could give you some advanced flight training so you would have a better grasp of the subject of flying safely? For a price of course.

[small penguin]

Actually I have no problems with the instructors at the club. Nor the instructors at other airports I fly to. Nor do I with pilots I've not met.

What I do have a "problem" with, are the pilots who fall under one of two categories:

A) Complain [edit] on an anonymous online forum [/edit] about the lack of money; or
B) Play God and either dont follow rules, or dont use common sense.

So, so long as you're not an ATPL complaining about eating Kraft Dinner, or you're not flying a twin/jet into a small airport acting like an ass, then no, I've got no complaints

Now, some advanced flight training, I sure as heck cant turn down. Some flight training because you think Im an unsafe pilot, that I'll definately turn down!

[jpilot77]

Who honestly thinks that it would be better for the lear to have joined with the much slower VFR traffic in the circuit pass them all then land on another runway as opposed to just pulling a straight in? Do you really think that would be better? If the 172 had a problem with the lear going straight in how do you think he would have reacted if the lear joined then pulled ahead, he probably would still have cut him off for passing him. i would also guess that more pilots have experiece with planes making straight in then getting passed in the circuit.

[AuxBatOn]

I donT' see any problem with him doing a straight in or an circuit. However, I have a problem with his runway choice and the lack of effort to make it safe.

[...]

....here's an answer to the issue past present and future....

Everyone just be phacking normal to one another

...and maybe...just maybe we won't have thread about a nothing, completly avoidable incident go like...10 phuquing pages!!! Like WTF!?!

Courtesy and airmanship is dead in this country.

Just be normal people....(ehph me )

PS: and one more thing....would it kill you to smile back at someone even if they work for the competitor!? Prop/jet blasting others on the ground ain't cool.

[Flying Nutcracker]

jpilot77 is ignorant!

[TAWS]

Cat,

You're wasting your time with the "small penguin".....the guy has more posts than hours since he left flight school.

Although the way he goes on in every forum, I'm sure he feels in his own mind that he has "been there done that." The reality is he has been out of flight school for a short period of time.

I can't wait to hear him when he breaks a thousand hours.....stay tuned for more penguin adventures!

[Cat Driver]

TWAS sometimes I just get lazy and pick on the easy ones...small penguin never fails to entertain me.

I was going to suggest small penguin get a ride in a Lear to get an idea of the speeds the Lear operates at and the difficulties of trying to mix in a circuit with bug smashers being driven around and around the same pattern by students and instructors conforming to what they believe to be the norm for airplanes.

Then I got a grip on myself and realized the futility of such a suggestion.....

[IFRATC]

YQA is a strange place for us ATC because of freq coverage. IFR a/c in decent will be lost on atc freq because it is based in YYZ. Traffic or weather depending, the a/c cannot necessarily request or get the visual from us. I would say the split is 60/40 whether the a/c goes over to the MF with the approach or goes over and then gets it relayed by FSS.
My initial point though was this. If the a/c has been cleared for a specific approach it won't deviate from this. The Lear could not just transition to another approach to comply with VFR circuits. I think the biggest factor here as mentioned, is courtesy and proper airmanship. EVEN IF the Lear cancelled IFR and joined the circuit someone would have to move. I have many many years of flying experience both civil and military, I know what I would have done in that cessna.

IFRATC

[COCO THE MONKEY]

I used to fly a Lear 24 and in training we flew circuits with a flock of little guys. ref+30 worked for maneuvering which came out to about 150KIAS. We kept the circuits outside and a 500' higher than the smaller circuit traffic and had no problem fitting in. The wider and higher circuit kept our circuit times to about the same as the others. In this situation we would have gladly fitted into the circuit pattern no problem. There is no excuse for faster traffic to go against the pattern in this case, just poor airmanship. And by the way, we're not talking about a circling procedure here, just a simple VFR circuit to another runway other than that with which you are aligned when still way out. It was a matter of pride to us that our airmanship was up to mixing it in with the slower guys.

[SierraPoppa]

TWAS sometimes I just get lazy and pick on the easy ones...small penguin never fails to entertain me.

I don't normally post on here anymore but I'll make an exception.

Is "penguin" a euphemism for penis?

Just a thought.

Back to the sidelines.

[AuxBatOn]

YQA is a strange place for us ATC because of freq coverage. IFR a/c in decent will be lost on atc freq because it is based in YYZ. Traffic or weather depending, the a/c cannot necessarily request or get the visual from us. I would say the split is 60/40 whether the a/c goes over to the MF with the approach or goes over and then gets it relayed by FSS.
My initial point though was this. If the a/c has been cleared for a specific approach it won't deviate from this. The Lear could not just transition to another approach to comply with VFR circuits. I think the biggest factor here as mentioned, is courtesy and proper airmanship. EVEN IF the Lear cancelled IFR and joined the circuit someone would have to move. I have many many years of flying experience both civil and military, I know what I would have done in that cessna.

IFRATC

In a case like that, airmanship dictates. Yes, I would have switch the approach for the other runway and tell FSS so. What's wrong with that?

[Flying Nutcracker]

Let's change the scenario a little... what would've happened if the Lear checked in 10 final 36, only to learn that he had 2 Cessna's on final for 36 ( one 2 miles and the other 5 miles final) and the Lear was number 3? What approach would YOU have done???

[AuxBatOn]

Hopefully (and by regs), the Lear would have called much earlier than that and the other aircraft would have adjusted their pattern or I would have adjusted the speed so I can fit in properly. Hows that?

[Flying Nutcracker]

And that is defacto the point of this whole learning experience, isn't it?!?!? Call early, get situational awareness and do proper coordination in a TIMELY fashion = everybody happy!

THEN, if someone does something funny after everything (with everybody) is agreed upon, you have the right to make a fuzz...

Communication is key!

AuxBatOn, I am on your side on this one.

And for what it is worth I try to monitor the frequencey for about 5 or 10 mins before my first mandatory call to get a better picture. That way I already have a game plan to ask for when I check in.

FN

[square]

Even if he was cleared the straight in 36 with centre, if he breaks out he can just cancel IFR and switch runways. If the weather wasn't good enough for that, the circuit traffic would not have even been there because they wouldn't have been cleared for special VFR. So the guy could've accommodated the circuit traffic. Or he could've at least called to say "we'd like to take the straight-in if it's okay with the circuit traffic," and acknowledge that yes these people do actually exist. Though that wouldn't have shown the greatest airmanship, since there are TWO of them there, a little courtesy really counts.

[Mac]

YQA is a strange place for us ATC because of freq coverage. IFR a/c in decent will be lost on atc freq because it is based in YYZ. Traffic or weather depending, the a/c cannot necessarily request or get the visual from us. I would say the split is 60/40 whether the a/c goes over to the MF with the approach or goes over and then gets it relayed by FSS.
My initial point though was this. If the a/c has been cleared for a specific approach it won't deviate from this. The Lear could not just transition to another approach to comply with VFR circuits. I think the biggest factor here as mentioned, is courtesy and proper airmanship. EVEN IF the Lear cancelled IFR and joined the circuit someone would have to move. I have many many years of flying experience both civil and military, I know what I would have done in that cessna.

IFRATC

In a case like that, airmanship dictates. Yes, I would have switch the approach for the other runway and tell FSS so. What's wrong with that?

You cannot just switch the type of IFR approach or the runway that you are landing without getting a new clearance from the Center. ATC may be basing separation with another arrival or departure on your cleared approach.

[mag check]

I used to fly a Lear 24 and in training we flew circuits with a flock of little guys. ref+30 worked for maneuvering which came out to about 150KIAS. We kept the circuits outside and a 500' higher than the smaller circuit traffic and had no problem fitting in. The wider and higher circuit kept our circuit times to about the same as the others. In this situation we would have gladly fitted into the circuit pattern no problem. There is no excuse for faster traffic to go against the pattern in this case, just poor airmanship. And by the way, we're not talking about a circling procedure here, just a simple VFR circuit to another runway other than that with which you are aligned when still way out. It was a matter of pride to us that our airmanship was up to mixing it in with the slower guys.

Ah, finally someone who understands how to fly. The other point to make here is that if the Lear pilot was truly trying to be a "professional" pilot, he would have realized that the terminal/ramp, that he was heading for was at the opposite end of the runway, so his procedure required a landing against the traffic flow, plus a mile long backtrack to get where he was going, not to mention likely a hold at the end for the landing traffic before he could backtrack. Clearly he had not looked too far into his arrival procedures.

[AuxBatOn]

YQA is a strange place for us ATC because of freq coverage. IFR a/c in decent will be lost on atc freq because it is based in YYZ. Traffic or weather depending, the a/c cannot necessarily request or get the visual from us. I would say the split is 60/40 whether the a/c goes over to the MF with the approach or goes over and then gets it relayed by FSS.
My initial point though was this. If the a/c has been cleared for a specific approach it won't deviate from this. The Lear could not just transition to another approach to comply with VFR circuits. I think the biggest factor here as mentioned, is courtesy and proper airmanship. EVEN IF the Lear cancelled IFR and joined the circuit someone would have to move. I have many many years of flying experience both civil and military, I know what I would have done in that cessna.

IFRATC

In a case like that, airmanship dictates. Yes, I would have switch the approach for the other runway and tell FSS so. What's wrong with that?

You cannot just switch the type of IFR approach or the runway that you are landing without getting a new clearance from the Center. ATC may be basing separation with another arrival or departure on your cleared approach.

They clear you for an approach. You tell them what you'll do. If you tell FSS that you changed you mind for valid reason, they have ways to communicate that to center. I've done it a few times myself without any issues.

[crazyaviator]

I have stumbled upon this topic only this evening and have read most of the replies. A little background, I live near CYQA, am an AME and commercial pilot and I believe I know the offender in the 172. I have flown out of Muskoka on and off for 20 years.
MR. SF, most likely the person involved in ALL the Cadors is a difficult and sad person. I wish the best for him! He has violated regulations, Previously lost his AMO, and continues to cut corners in many things! I was the unfortunate soul who did an annual inspection on his plane ( RVX) and i believe there were over 120 "snags". It took 3 months before he would say " Hi" again to me. ( Did he finally realize that i desired to save his ass and his students asses ? ) We fixed most snags , 2 notable ones that he didnt want to have fixed were 1) there are NO door handles for closing the doors on the plane and 2) Every time the rudder was moved by hand there was buckling of the rudder structure DUE to a bent vertical fin!! ( I fought the AMO to have these snags included in the logbook signoff ) This rudder only was repaired at the annual I did due to CRACKING of the spar! The bent Vert fin was causing cracking of the rudder spar! Ive been told his other plane is a piece of junk. As an AME, i was hardly supported by the AMO with whom i was employed with. Mr. SF has over a $20,000 debt with this AMO and the annuals have been POORLY done , perhaps because of this fact and the fact that loosing this customer may well also entail loosing the $20,000 debt!
I have since resigned from this company to persue other things,,,,
John Donaldson , by the way is a great person and is a professional in all ways !
Concerning circuit procedures, ATC, FSS and the remoteness, I applaud the FSS over the years, having to work with the "manops" and an airport that has a mix of local and small aircraft AND business jet celebrities flying in to their cottages. I have , on occasion, taken off on 36 and done test flying out of the circuit and zone and landed on 36 , joined base, joined long final etc etc etc ,,,,there has been no negative reply from ATC. ( I do all these things with safety in mind, being mindful of all or any traffic) and i adhere to the regs !! When there is a mix or a jet in the circuit or arriving (( Jets are never in the circuit lol )) I give them preference. Concerning the cadors incident, i believe both pilots were wrong BUT Mr. SF? was likely trying to "fix" a problem that he perceives is "wrong" . Understandably, as LOCO mentioned in his eloquent reply, jets CAN mix and mingle at local airports with small planes! Small planes, however , aught to be accomodating to the jets even though some jet pilots want all traffic to HEED their arrival with due respect and accomodate their expedicious arrival because of their precious cargo lol.
Should the 2 small planes have extended their downwind ? YES, Should the inbound jet conform to the "landing runway in a safe manner" Yes ! Is there too much "chatter" at YQA ? Yes, but only in times of congestion and mostly because of PILOT ignorance and poor phraseology. MOST pilots dont know that FSS communications for YQA are mostly advisory in nature and that the pilot is NOT talking to a control tower but he/she him/herself makes the decisions with respect to weather, runway selection, joining circuits etc IAW the applicable CARS.
I hope this answers a question or 2 and assists in the discussion !

PS: aviatrixfss , may i pm you , im curious of whom RD is ( I think i know)

[mag check]

Mag, sorry, you are like every person I've ever talked to trying to make the situations seem more complicated than they are. Even three aircraft in the circuit doing circuits takes only a few seconds to sort...

You continue to imply the largest aggravating factor is FSS talking too much...

Once FSS confirm each aircraft is aware of each other, there is no further need to continue 'tying up' the frequency. That's why pilot's are required to make the mandatory calls, the updates ensure the FSS don't have to repeatedly call them.

IFR aircraft trying to airfile on the MF are a real source of problems with regards to frequency use. However I've found this to be extremely rare. If an aircraft confirms it's unable to contact the FIC using the enroute freq's and insists FSS take the flight plan, we must comply. Don't blame us for ensuring their safety is covered vis-a-vis flight plans if they do insist. Maybe you should talk to the pilots and insist they file on the ground.

I've said it before, if pilot's think there is a problem with the frequency being so crowded that they can't be bothered to make calls, or respond, either stop flying or call the appropriate Nav Canada manager and make your views known. This sort of thing is taken seriously.

Gillette,
I couldn't agree with you more. At any other airport that I have been to, these problems don't seem to arise. Now, I can say that I have not been into Moose, or Timmins,(the other area's covered by these FSS), well I have, but it was on floats, quite a few years ago, so not sure if the situation was the same, but anyway, my point is I'm having trouble trying to figure out why things work smooth at other airports, but not at YQA?
I mean really, I have been into some very big airports in the states, that run great on unicom.
747's fitting in just fine with 152's, all with those nice simple rules that every pilot learns very early in their training.
I just keep going over and over in my head, is it possible that pilots, who by law must follow the required calls per CARS, just turn into complete idiots when heading to YQA, or is it at all possible that there might be a problem with the half dozen(just a guess) FSS folks, that don't have a requirment to follow the CARS, only their ops manual.
I'm not trying to start fights here, and I'm not diss'n the Nav Can employees, I'm just looking for some input from others who have flown into YQA, or other airports covered by Timmins FSS.

[mag check]

I have stumbled upon this topic only this evening and have read most of the replies. A little background, I live near CYQA, am an AME and commercial pilot and I believe I know the offender in the 172. I have flown out of Muskoka on and off for 20 years.
MR. SF, most likely the person involved in ALL the Cadors is a difficult and sad person. I wish the best for him! He has violated regulations, Previously lost his AMO, and continues to cut corners in many things! I was the unfortunate soul who did an annual inspection on his plane ( RVX) and i believe there were over 120 "snags". It took 3 months before he would say " Hi" again to me. ( Did he finally realize that i desired to save his ass and his students asses ? ) We fixed most snags , 2 notable ones that he didnt want to have fixed were 1) there are NO door handles for closing the doors on the plane and 2) Every time the rudder was moved by hand there was buckling of the rudder structure DUE to a bent vertical fin!! ( I fought the AMO to have these snags included in the logbook signoff ) This rudder only was repaired at the annual I did due to CRACKING of the spar! The bent Vert fin was causing cracking of the rudder spar! Ive been told his other plane is a piece of junk. As an AME, i was hardly supported by the AMO with whom i was employed with. Mr. SF has over a $20,000 debt with this AMO and the annuals have been POORLY done , perhaps because of this fact and the fact that loosing this customer may well also entail loosing the $20,000 debt!
I have since resigned from this company to persue other things,,,,
John Donaldson , by the way is a great person and is a professional in all ways !
Concerning circuit procedures, ATC, FSS and the remoteness, I applaud the FSS over the years, having to work with the "manops" and an airport that has a mix of local and small aircraft AND business jet celebrities flying in to their cottages. I have , on occasion, taken off on 36 and done test flying out of the circuit and zone and landed on 36 , joined base, joined long final etc etc etc ,,,,there has been no negative reply from ATC. ( I do all these things with safety in mind, being mindful of all or any traffic) and i adhere to the regs !! When there is a mix or a jet in the circuit or arriving (( Jets are never in the circuit lol )) I give them preference. Concerning the cadors incident, i believe both pilots were wrong BUT Mr. SF? was likely trying to "fix" a problem that he perceives is "wrong" . Understandably, as LOCO mentioned in his eloquent reply, jets CAN mix and mingle at local airports with small planes! Small planes, however , aught to be accomodating to the jets even though some jet pilots want all traffic to HEED their arrival with due respect and accomodate their expedicious arrival because of their precious cargo lol.
Should the 2 small planes have extended their downwind ? YES, Should the inbound jet conform to the "landing runway in a safe manner" Yes ! Is there too much "chatter" at YQA ? Yes, but only in times of congestion and mostly because of PILOT ignorance and poor phraseology. MOST pilots dont know that FSS communications for YQA are mostly advisory in nature and that the pilot is NOT talking to a control tower but he/she him/herself makes the decisions with respect to weather, runway selection, joining circuits etc IAW the applicable CARS.
I hope this answers a question or 2 and assists in the discussion !

PS: aviatrixfss , may i pm you , im curious of whom RD is ( I think i know)

Ummmmmm, Crazy Aviator, could you please tell me how you are "adhearing" to the REGS, when you state that you don't join the circuit in accordance with the REGS?

[AuxBatOn]

Is there a regulation that tells you how to join the circuit?

[crazyaviator]

I looked at my posting and i couldnt find where i mentioned that "I dont join the circuit in accordance with the regs" Hmm, anyways, There are many ways to join the circuit both at uncontrolled airports and also nordo at uncontrolled airports ( Bear in mind that "should" in the regs is a suggestion and SHALL is a requirement , both have SAFETY in mind !!
At a class E airport ( CYQA) it is the Pilots responsibility to determine runway in use, winds, traffic and to Determine the runway to use , using the CARS as a base and safety AND conformity and basic airmanship as part of his/ her decision right ? ,,,,,,,

[mag check]

I looked at my posting and i couldnt find where i mentioned that "I dont join the circuit in accordance with the regs" Hmm, anyways, There are many ways to join the circuit both at uncontrolled airports and also nordo at uncontrolled airports ( Bear in mind that "should" in the regs is a suggestion and SHALL is a requirement , both have SAFETY in mind !!
At a class E airport ( CYQA) it is the Pilots responsibility to determine runway in use, winds, traffic and to Determine the runway to use , using the CARS as a base and safety AND conformity and basic airmanship as part of his/ her decision right ? ,,,,,,,

I musta read something wrong, cause you say you join, straight in, on base etc. etc......
I seem to remember something about joining circuits at uncontrolled airports, either, overhead from the upwind side, straight onto downwind, or 45 degree's to the downwind leg.
anyone else familiar with this?????