Cessna 172 cuts off Lear 60 at YQA Muskoka . . on purpose .

[AuxBatOn]

Those are should. It's not REQUIRED to do it this way. You can rejoin however you please, as long as it is safe. However, TC recommends the TECHNIQUES you described.

[crazyaviator]

Aux bat on, I was considering the old AIP canada and RAC 4.0 specifically, 4.3-4.4-4.5

[mag check]

Those are should. It's not REQUIRED to do it this way. You can rejoin however you please, as long as it is safe. However, TC recommends the TECHNIQUES you described.

So, in light of that, thanks for the clarification by the way, wouldn't any other procedure, especially when other aircraft are around, be considered "bad airmanship"?
I mean look at the problems for instructors teaching students how to join the circuit "properly", and all of a sudden, some lear joins the circuit opposite 2 others, and the students trying to figure out why he's paying to always join overhead, and the lear just gets to join any way he wants. Kinda hard for the instructor to explain what happened, "well, you know, ummmmm, he can do that, cause he's a lear............."

[small penguin]

I can't wait to hear him when he breaks a thousand hours.....stay tuned for more penguin adventures!

Flying may be your profession. Its not mine. Its my hobby. Therefore, I dont care about rushing to get 1000 hours TT.

But maybe, just to make your e-peen grow a little bigger, I'll make a post just for you, when I hit 1000TT.

[AuxBatOn]

(a) Joining the Circuit

(i) Landing and takeoff should be accomplished on or parallel to the runway most nearly aligned into the wind. However, the pilot has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft and another runway may be used if it is determined to be necessary in the interest of safety.

(ii) Unless otherwise specified or required by the applicable distance from cloud criteria, aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may also join the circuit on the downwind leg (Figure 4.6). When joining from the upwind side, plan the descent to cross the runway in level flight at 1 000 ft AAE or the published circuit altitude. Maintain that altitude until further descent is required for landing.

(iii) If it is necessary for an aircraft to cross the airport before joining the circuit, it is recommended that the crossover be accomplished at least 500 ft above the circuit altitude.

(iv) All descents should be made on the upwind side or well clear of the circuit pattern.

(v) Aerodromes not within an MF area: Where no MF procedures are in effect, aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg (Figure 4.6).

(vi) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is available: Aircraft may join the circuit pattern straight-in or at 45˚ to the downwind leg or straight-in to the base or final legs (Figure 4.1). Pilots should be alert for other VFR traffic entering the circuit at these positions and for IFR straight-in or circling approaches.

(vii) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is not available: Aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg (Figure 4.6).

NOTE: Where an uncontrolled aerodrome lies within an MF area, the pilot must follow the MF reporting procedures set out in CARs 602.97 to 602.103 inclusive. (See RAC 4.5.4 and 4.5.7.)

(b) Continuous Circuits: Aircraft performing a series of circuits and landings should, after each takeoff, reach circuit altitude before joining the downwind leg.

(c) Departing the Circuit or Airport: Aircraft departing the circuit or airport should climb straight ahead on the runway heading until reaching the circuit traffic altitude before commencing a turn in any direction to an en route heading. Turns back toward the circuit or airport should not be initiated until at least 500 ft above the circuit altitude

The instructor should teach the student the correct stuff (ie: you don't have to join that way, but it will keep you out of trouble most of the time). Yes, it all come down to airmanship. If you read my previous post, I say

You can rejoin however you please, as long as it is safe

Safety can be accomplished only with good airmanship on everyone's part. IMHO, there was a lack of airmanship on the lear's part and the C172's part.

FYI, the lear wasn't joining VFR for the straight in, he was joining on a Straight In IFR approach.

Edit: See below

[crazyaviator]

MANY years ago , I was a young and green pilot on my NORDO commercial cross-country and was returning to Ontario via Mascouche in Montreal. Mascouche is a BUSY airport and i joined on the dead side as per the "regs" ,,,problem was, i did a 360 degree descending turn while joining on the dead side from the east and nearly , VERY NEARLY hit 2 planes doing the SAME thing ,,,,,we avoided death and coordinated ourselves and joined overhead, downwind and all landed safely! The POINT is , it is not always adviseable to join the circuit in accordance with the "suggestions" in the regs BUT to use wisdom and prudence and join in the manner that is SAFEST for the occasion, whilst keeping with the regs ( I would have joined LONG final TODAY with the "experience" that i have attained over the years .

[crazyaviator]

Im sorry , i need to correct my posting , it was a 180 degree turn, Please excuse me

[Cat Driver]

FYI, the lear wasn't rejoining VFR for the straight in, he was rejoining on a Straight In IFR approach.

So he had been in the circuit and rejoined?

No wonder everything and everyone got all mixed up.

[AuxBatOn]

FYI, the lear wasn't rejoining VFR for the straight in, he was rejoining on a Straight In IFR approach.

So he had been in the circuit and rejoined?

No wonder everything and everyone got all mixed up.

Sorry, I made a mistake translating all that in my little head... Replace the rejoining for joining.

[square]

You either conform to the circuit pattern or avoid the circuit pattern. The reg says you cant join a right hand circuit where left-hands are preferred, that is a real rule, and it is the only one. You can do a straight-in if you want, or you can make a right turn onto a straight-in final as long as it's further out from the base leg. You can even do a right-hand circuit where left-hands are recommended if you have an advisory station that can assure you there's no conflict. And no, I don't think it's good airmanship to go and do a big looping procedure over and around and through the path of other aircraft just so you can use the "recommended" method, use a bit of common sense.. e.g. if your traffic just took off it's better to take the left base than go overhead at 500 feet then turn around and come overhead at circuit altitude then turn left downwind right when your traffic is probably going to be there. The AIM won't teach you how to fly, it's your job to make the decisions that keep things safe, it's your job to maintain separation in uncontrolled airspace and it's your job to make your intentions clear to other aircraft.

And all this business about the guy having to keep to his clearance is I think mislead, he could've just cancelled IFR with the FSS and disregarded any clearances, airspace conflicts with other IFR traffic would've been covered by his responsibility to keep a visual lookout.

[E-Flyer]

ADORS Number: 2008O1659
Reporting Region: Ontario
Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Incident
Occurrence Date: 2008/08/03
Occurrence Time: 0000 Z
Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 0
Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYQA Aerodrome Name: Muskoka Occurrence Location: Muskoka (CYQA)
Event Information Conflict - potential Other operational incident Overshoot/missed approach Pilot/public complaint

Make: CESSNA Model: 172F
Year Built: 1964
Owner: SIERRA FOX INC

Make: CESSNA Model: T182T
Owner: THE S. E. JOHNSTON MACHINERY SALES CO. LIMITED


Country of Registration: UNITED STATES
Make: LEARJET Model: 60

User Name: Satens, Terrence
Date: 2008/08/05
Further Action Required: No

Narrative: Between 1901 and 1947, Cessna 172F aircraft started and continued to conduct circuits to runway 18 Muskoka Airport (CYQA). At approximately 1910 a Cessna T182T aircraft joined the circuit also for continuous circuits. YYZ ACC advised Timmins of a LearJet 60 landing YQA at 1926. The Learjet 60 first called Timmins at 10 south of the Muskoka airport. Circuit traffic was passed as well as the active runway being 18. Learjet elected to use runway 36 as this was the last ATC clearance given, RNAV 36. Learjet 60 next reported IGSIM, 5 miles final and just prior to that report, FSS had obtained position reports from the two circuit traffic aircraft that both indicated they were downwind and DF bearings confirmed this and actually confirmed they were both south of the DF site downwind. It was at this point with Learjet 60 just inside 5 miles final and not even a minute after the position report from circuit traffic, Cessna 172F advised "short final runway 18". FSS immediately provided updates to get the traffic to change their course of action. Neither aircraft wanted to give up on landing into one another and only after FSS stated "somebody is going to have to give way" did the Cessna 172F elect to overshoot runway 18 and rejoin the circuit. LearJet 60 landed, backtracked and cleared the runway with no further incident, Cessna 172F continued to conduct circuits for another 20 minutes without further incident and Cessna T182T left the circuit for his destination. Approximately 2 hours later the pilot of the Cessna T182T aircraft phoned YTS FSS with his name and phone number advising that the Cessna 172F had intentionally cut his circuit short to get in the way of the landing aircraft and refused to give way to make a point. FSS had suspected based on position report information and the sudden report on final that this was the case, but due to the fact FSS are not on site at Muskoka visual confirmation was unavailable. Pilot of Cessna T182T says he will make whatever statements or reports to pursue this matter as Cessna 172F did have a student on board when this incident occurred.

When two aircraft are landing, the aircraft that is higher shall give way Could that legality by any chance be brought up to defend the C172F? Considering it was a student and that question always comes up on the PSTAR. But yea, cutting off the lear is poor airmanship.

[Cat Driver]

Sorry, I made a mistake translating all that in my little head... Replace the rejoining for joining.

I was only giving you a hard time as I was sure you just typed it and didn't read it....Now your turn with me because I also make a lot of weird posts...

[AuxBatOn]

[C23flyer]

Mag Check,

Are you sure you're not confusing a MF airport and an uncontrolled airport without a MF? The provisions are in the "regs" for other means of joining the circuit when VFR coming into a MF airport, because all traffic in the circuit is known. Students should definitely be trained to know the difference between MF, non-MF and controlled. NORDO aircraft may still be present, but they are required to notify FSS ahead of time what their intentions will be. You still need to watch or those and for a/c on the wrong frequency.

[The Other Kind]

It's an MF, nothing wrong with joining straight in or from base as long as it conforms with the proper pattern ie: don't fly a right base if it's a published left hand pattern. Blaming the Lear for this incident is being 'nit-picky', at best. The guy in the 172 was being a jerk-off, as usual. I've been on frequency while he strutted his stuff, he's an ass. The FSS guys and gals working YQA do a great job and I applaud them for the professional way they handle this moron.

[_dwj_]

You either conform to the circuit pattern or avoid the circuit pattern. The reg says you cant join a right hand circuit where left-hands are preferred, that is a real rule, and it is the only one.

Which rule is this and does it apply to uncontrolled airports with no MF? We regularly see commercial and private traffic join right base and right downwind here. I assumed it was okay as long as the circuit is empty. Generally people do the proper circuit when there are other aircraft in it, although I've seen a close call when a commercial operator from YYC was doing right-hand circuits for training in their dhc-6 and a 182 was joining a left-hand circuit.

I always do left-hand circuits, as you never know if there will be a nordo aircraft in the circuit, but I didn't think there was any rule against doing the circuits the wrong way.

[Hedley]

Sigh.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#602_96

602.96(3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall

(c) make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement or where otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit;

I suppose it would be a complete and utter waste of time
to discuss the nuances of CAR 602.96(3), so why bother?

[mag check]

Mag Check,

Are you sure you're not confusing a MF airport and an uncontrolled airport without a MF? The provisions are in the "regs" for other means of joining the circuit when VFR coming into a MF airport, because all traffic in the circuit is known. Students should definitely be trained to know the difference between MF, non-MF and controlled. NORDO aircraft may still be present, but they are required to notify FSS ahead of time what their intentions will be. You still need to watch or those and for a/c on the wrong frequency.

Yes, exactly correct, I was going with my shady at best memory, and stand corrected.

I still have to say that in my mind, the Lear pilot was in the wrong. Look at it this way: The lear is short final, the other a/c are both on downwind, ready to turn base, suddenly the lear must overshoot, animal on the runway or something, where does this put the lear, at about 160kts, and climbing 2500fpm. Probably straight through the other a/c. Not a very safe thing for a "professional" pilot.
If the 172 didn't give way, lets say the RX went bad on his radio, and didn't hear the last transmissions, and the lear had to overshoot, there could have been a very bad outcome.
I would think that the lear pilot realised this on final, and found himself commited to land. There should be no time during the circuit, at a 6000ft runway, where you should be commited to land. The lear pilot was left with no way out. Poor judgement, and he is lucky it worked out.

[AuxBatOn]

You either conform to the circuit pattern or avoid the circuit pattern. The reg says you cant join a right hand circuit where left-hands are preferred, that is a real rule, and it is the only one.

Which rule is this and does it apply to uncontrolled airports with no MF? We regularly see commercial and private traffic join right base and right downwind here. I assumed it was okay as long as the circuit is empty. Generally people do the proper circuit when there are other aircraft in it, although I've seen a close call when a commercial operator from YYC was doing right-hand circuits for training in their dhc-6 and a 182 was joining a left-hand circuit.

I always do left-hand circuits, as you never know if there will be a nordo aircraft in the circuit, but I didn't think there was any rule against doing the circuits the wrong way.

The direction of the circuit is quite important for a few reaons. The first and obvious one is that it keeps the traffic predictable (to a certain degree). It will prevent 2 guys from coming in head on on base and both having their belly up to each other. The second reason is that it will keep you out of trouble. If you fly at proper altitude and proper direction, it should keep you out of noise sensitive areas, restricted areas and obstacles. It might be a non issue for places east of the big rocks but in the rockies, the direction of the circuit sure has some important considerations (for obstacles).

AuxBatOn

[2R]

Please define "proper" as i cannot find a reference to it in the Cars

[Cat Driver]

The lear pilot was left with no way out. Poor judgement, and he is lucky it worked out.

Wow, now that is quite an observation.....maybe he/she never landed at such a remote airport as Muskoka before, hope their luck holds out as they learn how to fly safe.

[square]

[mag check]

The lear pilot was left with no way out. Poor judgement, and he is lucky it worked out.

Wow, now that is quite an observation.....maybe he/she never landed at such a remote airport as Muskoka before, hope their luck holds out as they learn how to fly safe.

Sorry guys, I wasn't going to post anymore, as this thread has run it's coarse, however, after reading this post from Cat, and then looking out at YQA this evening, I saw 4 COWS walking around on the runway. This is not the first time, nor will it be the last, so as I said before, it could have been real interesting had the lear needed to overshoot because of something like this.

Thats the last from me on this post, as it has run on waaaayyyyyy too long.

[Cat Driver]

You missed my point mag check, I was alluding to the fact that two pilots flying a Lear should have the ability to overshoot if needed without flying into another airplane...especially in that they were aware there was other traffic there....a Lear is fast but not so fast that you can not see other traffic and take evasive action if needed..

[2R]

Seriously, I'm sure most are pissed off because it was a N registered Learjet.


If you can't understand that it is safer to just extend downwind and let the Lear land. Well you are a danger to aviation and I sure hope I will never share airspace with you, let alone work with you.