These are two cases where training bonds were found to be valid in a court case. Of note is that in the second case, there wasn't even a written agreement and the pilot was still required to reimburse the operator.
http://www.canlii.org/en/sk/skqb/doc/20 ... qb498.html
http://www.canlii.org/en/nt/ntsc/doc/19 ... i6955.html
If you do find yourself in a situation where you have a training bond that you need to get out of, first talk to a Labour Lawyer, but keep in mind there's a good chance you'll have to pay something.
Legality of Training Bonds?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Good stuff, JBI. I would urge all you who wish to try and wiggle out of a training bond to read these decisions carefully. Basically, if you have agreed to stay with an employer for an agreed upon period, you better live up to your word even if you get a job offer to fly Air Force One. All the excuses in the world won't sway a judge if you are not credible.
Both of these decisions seem to be based upon contract law, not labour law or unsafe work practices or any other un-thought-of-yet excuse. You agreed to something. You broke the agreement. You pay.
Both of these decisions seem to be based upon contract law, not labour law or unsafe work practices or any other un-thought-of-yet excuse. You agreed to something. You broke the agreement. You pay.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
I know of a recent case June? this year. The guy took 3 PPC's then quit within a few months,the company held him to his training bonds intitial training on all 3 types. He tried the duress unsafe flying and the standard excuses. The judge awarded the full cost of the training bond plus court costs to the company.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Bonds are the greedy small crappy companys way of getting pilots to stay and work for a bag of rice a month, if i could find a better job on a bigger aircraft i would give my 2 weeks notice and leave, do you really think any small company would hesitate for a moment to fire you if it was in their best interest. Pilots have no backbone. thats why wielders, and trades people like that make 10 times what we do. They fight for their basic work rights. If everyone said no to bonds then they would disappear. Did you ever hear of a doctor or lawyer getting bonded. No and in many cases they get a signing bonus. I once worked at a flight school that was owned by a pilot who worked for a airline with a strong union. He told us that if there was any talk of a pilot association or union then we would be fired. Being 18 and stupid we all went along, we were just happy to be flying. This the bad part of being a pilot. We just want to fly. I think that we as pilots in the aviation community should take more action to try and stop this bond Bull S#$@ . I firmly believe in a country wide pilot union or association. I already know what many will say about the bad points of this but having already worked for union and non-union airline I will take the union or contract job any day over the other.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Here's food for thought.
I used to work for VAL just as the company instituted the bonds. At that time the industry was moving, and the place was a revolving door. It was one thing to get a better job on a bigger machine, it was something else entirely to watch guys come to VAL, get the type ratings, and bugger off a few weeks/months later making a lateral move. That’s not advancing your career, that’s you breaking your word (there are of course extenuating circumstances). The company had to do something, and as much as I hate to admit this, I agree with it - I totally disagree with paying up front as in the case of VAL and their bond though.
It was because of pilots breaking their word that pilots now have to pay.
You need experience, the company needs pilots. We are very driven to get that experience, and the company shells out a lot of money to train us. More money then your typical tradesmen and with a fraction of return of investment for the company – a Plummer for example is less likely to switch companies as much as we do.
So you can understand why some companies have a bond.
IMHO, bonds suck. Then again so do pilots that break their word.
I used to work for VAL just as the company instituted the bonds. At that time the industry was moving, and the place was a revolving door. It was one thing to get a better job on a bigger machine, it was something else entirely to watch guys come to VAL, get the type ratings, and bugger off a few weeks/months later making a lateral move. That’s not advancing your career, that’s you breaking your word (there are of course extenuating circumstances). The company had to do something, and as much as I hate to admit this, I agree with it - I totally disagree with paying up front as in the case of VAL and their bond though.
It was because of pilots breaking their word that pilots now have to pay.
You need experience, the company needs pilots. We are very driven to get that experience, and the company shells out a lot of money to train us. More money then your typical tradesmen and with a fraction of return of investment for the company – a Plummer for example is less likely to switch companies as much as we do.
So you can understand why some companies have a bond.
IMHO, bonds suck. Then again so do pilots that break their word.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
I agree keeping your word is a honorable thing to do, however how many company's say things like come with us and we will give you a fast upgrade to the left seat or do 6 months on a twin otter and then we will give you a dash 8 type, or the or best one work on the ramp first. And they don't keep their word. This should be good enough. How can you justify a person who worked the ramp for a year in some cases then give him a flight position and then bond that person. I'm sorry but screw them. Never mind a plumber, I mean a member of the steel workers union makes a really good salary. A entry level pilot job say f/o on a 1900 or twin otter makes what, 20,000 a year. Thats how companys get the return on there investment. The pilots work for small wages. Call me crazy but maybe if the pay scale was better , and had some good benefits like passes , pension, people might stay longer. That is what drives them away. My advice is let the greedy airlines worry about their bottom line and we as pilots should worry about getting a little more for ourselves. Now I know this is a pipe dream that will never happen because to many of us will work for that bag of rice a month and the ramp thing but its just my thoughts. I'm lucky, I have a good job but I know how hard it was to get here. I give 100 percent everyday, but thats all , u need more , u have to pay me more. If I wanted to volunteer my time I'd fly for the Red cross. And believe it or not the boss's respect that. They know I'm honest but won't be pushed around. I know my job description and I do it.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
The reason most bonds exist is that as a group pilot as of late have been incapable of honoring a handshake agreement to stick with a company for 1 year after recieving training on a new type. As KAG said most companies wouldn't mind if you moved on to a bigger type, but leaving to fly the same type for an extra 1/2 cup of rice bothers people. Up front cash bonds are wrong. If you are leaving your current job because of the promise of a fast upgrade or the promised -8 endorsement and a bond is required get it in writing if promised action doesn't happen the bond is void you leave.outsider wrote:Bonds are the greedy small crappy companys way of getting pilots to stay and work for a bag of rice a month, if i could find a better job on a bigger aircraft i would give my 2 weeks notice and leave, do you really think any small company would hesitate for a moment to fire you if it was in their best interest. Pilots have no backbone. thats why wielders, and trades people like that make 10 times what we do. They fight for their basic work rights. If everyone said no to bonds then they would disappear. Did you ever hear of a doctor or lawyer getting bonded. No and in many cases they get a signing bonus. I once worked at a flight school that was owned by a pilot who worked for a airline with a strong union. He told us that if there was any talk of a pilot association or union then we would be fired. Being 18 and stupid we all went along, we were just happy to be flying. This the bad part of being a pilot. We just want to fly. I think that we as pilots in the aviation community should take more action to try and stop this bond Bull S#$@ . I firmly believe in a country wide pilot union or association. I already know what many will say about the bad points of this but having already worked for union and non-union airline I will take the union or contract job any day over the other.
Plumbers, electricians,et al have apprenticeships 2 years (poss. longer) if you want practice your trade you're stuck with one company till you're finished and unlike most airlines most trade companies don't steal apprentices. And yes lots of apprenticeships come with a requirement to stick with the company as a trade for a length of time. Lawyers spend time as interns, law clerks, or junior associates working their way up. I just read recently in the local paper that your better sending your kid into the trades than med school right now that the return on investment is better. Unless you're paying for something yourself taking other peoples money usually comes with strings attached, see link below for doctors. Avoiding the whole paying for your job debate if you paid for your PPC's and endorsements you could move between companies freely.
http://www.aie.org/Scholarships/detail.cfm?ID=11717
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
I completely disagree. How can you take the company's side. Its because of this idea that bonds are around. Why dont you take the pilots side and let the greedy managers worry about their bottom line. Worry about your own problems. What if they lose a contract, do you think a company will keep you on the payroll. NO. Oh and apprentices in trades make a hell of a lot more money then entry level pilots. Don't pick up for the company, let them fight their own battles. Bonds are wrong. A company has no right to keep you from bettering your self. They get their money back from training in the ridiculous low salary they pay. I can't believe any pilot would take the side of management over a bond. Its crazy. Most small company's are so greedy that if they could they would get you to work for free, are you nuts. Say no bonds.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
And if some pilot wants to leave to make more money on the same type then give the company a chance to match it first before you quit, if not then if you still want to go then leave, SCREW em, if they are so tight they would rather lose you then give you a modest raise then that company is garbage to begin with. Fight for what you deserve.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Outsider, there are two sides to every issue.
Why don't you just start your own company.....after a couple of years get back to us and let us know what you think about bonds then.
Why don't you just start your own company.....after a couple of years get back to us and let us know what you think about bonds then.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
There is only one side to this issue, training bonds are WRONG, no company has any more loyalty to you then you do to them.
If things get slow they lay you off and because of a bond a pilot may of been able to find a better job somewhere else , most likely at a company that is SAFER and pays better. In this case the pilot is laid off, so If you agree with bonds they you should also have an agreement that the company has to pay you as long as you have time left on your bond. Have some back bone and stand up for your selves, say no to bonds.
If things get slow they lay you off and because of a bond a pilot may of been able to find a better job somewhere else , most likely at a company that is SAFER and pays better. In this case the pilot is laid off, so If you agree with bonds they you should also have an agreement that the company has to pay you as long as you have time left on your bond. Have some back bone and stand up for your selves, say no to bonds.
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'effin hippie
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Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Outsider, tell me how a union is going to address oversupply, which is the actual problem.
The simple fact is that over-supply of labour depresses wages. AS IT SHOULD.
Your hack-handed presentation of a tired manifesto is boring. Are you suggesting that an employee has the right to do whatever they can get away with because, on principle, all managers/owners are greedy?
Are you suggesting that to an entry-level pilot looking to break into a highly competitive employment market, instead of using whatever wits and opportunities are available, he should just get in line at the union shop, because they'll take care of him?
Assuming this workers paradise exists, when there are 3 pilots out there for each position, how will the union choose which candidate? Will it have some magical ability to perfectly assess competence and reliability? Or will the job just go to 'Joe-the-shop-stewards' nephew?
Are all those trades apprentices making a killing because they belong to a union? Or is it because they entered an industry desperately short of workers?
Training agreements, as everybody here is acknowledging, exist for a reason. People are losing court cases because they entered binding agreements with open eyes. You actually think that I should be allowed to break my word because of some notion of class warfare? I'm an employee, but I also rent out my basement, should my tenant be allowed to renege on the rent and walk out after punching holes in the walls because I'm a landlord too?
Go pound sand.
ef
The simple fact is that over-supply of labour depresses wages. AS IT SHOULD.
Your hack-handed presentation of a tired manifesto is boring. Are you suggesting that an employee has the right to do whatever they can get away with because, on principle, all managers/owners are greedy?
Are you suggesting that to an entry-level pilot looking to break into a highly competitive employment market, instead of using whatever wits and opportunities are available, he should just get in line at the union shop, because they'll take care of him?
Assuming this workers paradise exists, when there are 3 pilots out there for each position, how will the union choose which candidate? Will it have some magical ability to perfectly assess competence and reliability? Or will the job just go to 'Joe-the-shop-stewards' nephew?
Are all those trades apprentices making a killing because they belong to a union? Or is it because they entered an industry desperately short of workers?
Training agreements, as everybody here is acknowledging, exist for a reason. People are losing court cases because they entered binding agreements with open eyes. You actually think that I should be allowed to break my word because of some notion of class warfare? I'm an employee, but I also rent out my basement, should my tenant be allowed to renege on the rent and walk out after punching holes in the walls because I'm a landlord too?
Go pound sand.
ef
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
" go pound sand"
how about go brown nose the CP's behind, sounds like thats what u are like, I bet you worked at JETSGO, how did that work out for u.
I'm saying that training bonds are a cheap, greedy way of keeping pilots around and keeping wages down. Reason being they cannot legally quit their job without it costing a wad of cash. I really can't believe that this point has to be argued with fellow pilots. Maybe your ok with being underpaid. If a company really cared about keeping a good efficient pilot around how about a modest raise based on performance or a promotion. Maybe they would stay around then. Why stay at a low paying airline with little or no chance for more if you don't have to. Now I also don't agree with getting a check out and leaving 2 weeks later, but Training bonds are not the answer , get real guys.
how about go brown nose the CP's behind, sounds like thats what u are like, I bet you worked at JETSGO, how did that work out for u.
I'm saying that training bonds are a cheap, greedy way of keeping pilots around and keeping wages down. Reason being they cannot legally quit their job without it costing a wad of cash. I really can't believe that this point has to be argued with fellow pilots. Maybe your ok with being underpaid. If a company really cared about keeping a good efficient pilot around how about a modest raise based on performance or a promotion. Maybe they would stay around then. Why stay at a low paying airline with little or no chance for more if you don't have to. Now I also don't agree with getting a check out and leaving 2 weeks later, but Training bonds are not the answer , get real guys.
Last edited by outsider on Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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'effin hippie
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Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
How 'bout you just answer one of the questions?
Just one, any one, you can pick. I'd like to know the details of your philosophy.
I've insulted you. I know. It was deliberate. But I think you are trying to advance a whole political philosophy I find repugnant, under the guise of being 'one of the boys'.
So there, I'm calling you out. Answer a question, and show us your mind. I have no problem showing you mine.
ef
Just one, any one, you can pick. I'd like to know the details of your philosophy.
I've insulted you. I know. It was deliberate. But I think you are trying to advance a whole political philosophy I find repugnant, under the guise of being 'one of the boys'.
So there, I'm calling you out. Answer a question, and show us your mind. I have no problem showing you mine.
ef
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
1. Completely unfair if a pilot works the ramp and then has to sign a bond, thats repugnant.
2. How to chose out of 3, if they all meet the min qualification then go with whoever started first,
3. The market does dictate the pay however , it does not dictate the need for a training bond, if the market is on the upswing, then so are profits so how about a raise to keep someone around instead of an immoral bond.
2. How to chose out of 3, if they all meet the min qualification then go with whoever started first,
3. The market does dictate the pay however , it does not dictate the need for a training bond, if the market is on the upswing, then so are profits so how about a raise to keep someone around instead of an immoral bond.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
By the way, where have you worked, I have been on many contract jobs, also did the ramp, did the airline non union/union, special air service and I can tell you that this bond business stinks, and it only flys at places where the boss intimidates the workers into not only bonds but things like fudging duty times, flying over gross and busting min's. So instead of licking some ones butt why dont you fight for your own.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Outsider, lets pretend I need a pilot.
What are your credentials and how could you make money for me and my company?
Once we establish that we can agree on working conditions, pay and of course how do I get back any losses I suffer if you take your talent to another employer before I recover the cost of your training?
What are your credentials and how could you make money for me and my company?
Once we establish that we can agree on working conditions, pay and of course how do I get back any losses I suffer if you take your talent to another employer before I recover the cost of your training?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
After reading your post I would never submit a resume to your airline , so dont worry about it
Pilot training is the cost of being in business, it should not be passed on to the employee. I already bonded myself when I went to flight school. We take jobs to earn money not go deeper in dept and back ourselves into a legal corner. I agree that jumping ship is bad but there has to be a better way then immoral bonds, so instead of being a bunch of "yes sirs" lets try and think of a better way.
oh how short our memory's are, Anyone of you remember JETSGO, holy hell, smarten up you guys, Bonds are not helping us.
Pilot training is the cost of being in business, it should not be passed on to the employee. I already bonded myself when I went to flight school. We take jobs to earn money not go deeper in dept and back ourselves into a legal corner. I agree that jumping ship is bad but there has to be a better way then immoral bonds, so instead of being a bunch of "yes sirs" lets try and think of a better way.
oh how short our memory's are, Anyone of you remember JETSGO, holy hell, smarten up you guys, Bonds are not helping us.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
That shows better than anything I could say what your problem is, you can't seem to understand that it has to be a two way street for both parties to have a beneficial relationship.After reading your post I would never submit a resume to your airline , so dont worry about it
By not submitting a resume to me you would be missing out on a top paying job, then again maybe I wouldn't hire you anyhow, especially with that attitude.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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'effin hippie
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Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Outside your concern for my butt is touching. I also don't believe you are a pilot, but I could be wrong.
I have worked 703/704/705 across northern Canada for 7 years. With 4 companies. Long enough to know that your assertion that bonds correlate with a poor working environment is crap, although I do think that the cash-up-front type does.
1. I'm happy for you that you found a way to echo my use of the word repugnant. Although I don't see why ramp to bond is so, perhaps you could lay it out.
2. Deliberate mis-representation. 3 greenhorns with the ink fresh on their license, no previous experience, the most vulnerable people in the industry. In your industry wide union you deeply believe in, where there is no bonding, apparently no ramp, how does the successful candidate get picked? I have seen similar situations, namely in the acting and auto industries, and where there is an industry wide union, the way an entry level candidate gets in is by currying favour with the union. The inefficiency and corruption endemic in large unions is well-documented. How will an industry wide pilot union avoid this?
3. The market most certainly does dictate the need for a training bond. The better the job market, the more and better paying opportunities out there for pilots, the more likely they are to be tempted to leave.
In a shitty job market, there is less opportunity to leave, hence less need for the bond. Market dictates both wage and bond. Also the assertion that bonds lead to lower wages, how so? Good wages are an attraction to a job, a bond, presumably, is a negative, so why would a person take a job with both lower wages and a bond? If a company tried to lower your wage after the fact, and use the bond trap you, well that would be vile, but I'm pretty sure not even VAL does that...
Your near religious appending of 'immoral' before 'bond' is cute too. The morality of bonds has been debated far longer and more thoughtfully here than your tenor suggests. The gray areas, as it were, have been parsed, and the need for some kind of protection for employers in this particular industry essentially acknowledged. Perhaps you could suggest some more 'moral' alternatives for an employer to protect themselves? Maybe you can find a way to use a union in that argument too?
ef
I have worked 703/704/705 across northern Canada for 7 years. With 4 companies. Long enough to know that your assertion that bonds correlate with a poor working environment is crap, although I do think that the cash-up-front type does.
1. I'm happy for you that you found a way to echo my use of the word repugnant. Although I don't see why ramp to bond is so, perhaps you could lay it out.
2. Deliberate mis-representation. 3 greenhorns with the ink fresh on their license, no previous experience, the most vulnerable people in the industry. In your industry wide union you deeply believe in, where there is no bonding, apparently no ramp, how does the successful candidate get picked? I have seen similar situations, namely in the acting and auto industries, and where there is an industry wide union, the way an entry level candidate gets in is by currying favour with the union. The inefficiency and corruption endemic in large unions is well-documented. How will an industry wide pilot union avoid this?
3. The market most certainly does dictate the need for a training bond. The better the job market, the more and better paying opportunities out there for pilots, the more likely they are to be tempted to leave.
In a shitty job market, there is less opportunity to leave, hence less need for the bond. Market dictates both wage and bond. Also the assertion that bonds lead to lower wages, how so? Good wages are an attraction to a job, a bond, presumably, is a negative, so why would a person take a job with both lower wages and a bond? If a company tried to lower your wage after the fact, and use the bond trap you, well that would be vile, but I'm pretty sure not even VAL does that...
Your near religious appending of 'immoral' before 'bond' is cute too. The morality of bonds has been debated far longer and more thoughtfully here than your tenor suggests. The gray areas, as it were, have been parsed, and the need for some kind of protection for employers in this particular industry essentially acknowledged. Perhaps you could suggest some more 'moral' alternatives for an employer to protect themselves? Maybe you can find a way to use a union in that argument too?
ef
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
First of all for kitty driver,
I have a great job, dont need one , maybe I can get you in where I work but with your attitude I'm not sure you would fit in , but thanks anyway
and for the other guy, I give up you win, keep the Jetsgo's of the world going, hope you not such a wimp when it comes to getting a mortgage, or buying a car, I think you have a great future. And for the record, I believe in hard work, I have no problem with people working the ramp, I did it myself, I don't agree with jumping ship, and I don't agree with bonds. So next time your at a party having a beer with an AC pilot or a INCO worker, or even a worker from Toyota who arent unionized but is a great place to work, tell them your butt licking opinion and see if they agree with you, sad thing is all of them make 10 times more than you, have a better workplace, and your just to scared and easily led to know it. TTYL . have fun with that bond, later buddy
I have a great job, dont need one , maybe I can get you in where I work but with your attitude I'm not sure you would fit in , but thanks anyway
and for the other guy, I give up you win, keep the Jetsgo's of the world going, hope you not such a wimp when it comes to getting a mortgage, or buying a car, I think you have a great future. And for the record, I believe in hard work, I have no problem with people working the ramp, I did it myself, I don't agree with jumping ship, and I don't agree with bonds. So next time your at a party having a beer with an AC pilot or a INCO worker, or even a worker from Toyota who arent unionized but is a great place to work, tell them your butt licking opinion and see if they agree with you, sad thing is all of them make 10 times more than you, have a better workplace, and your just to scared and easily led to know it. TTYL . have fun with that bond, later buddy
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'effin hippie
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Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Outside.
I can't help but notice that you are editing previous posts with statements that attempt to deflect or address subsequent posters points.
Why can't you just make your points sequentially, in response to other people?
I am finding you increasingly 'repugnant' on a personal level. I think your jetsgo comments are the final evidence, to me, that you are not actually a member of this industry but an outside advocate, either paid or simply dedicated, of unionization.
I am, clearly, not a particularly pro-union guy. But I make no bones about it. Why can you not simply come out and say so, and further more, clearly state the logical, practical reasons for unionization?
This community, for all its pettiness and foolishness, debates all these issues with the nuance and passion that can only come from the reality of being there, day in and day out.
Unless you can own up to this, or at least address my assertions here DIRECTLY, I'm done here. On the theory that any publicity is good publicity, and you don't need any more.
You haven't made a single point that has really stood up to criticism. Step up or step off 'Outsider' (read much Sartre lately?). C'mon, it's just the internet. Nobody even knows you.
ef
EDIT: Aww, my dramatic exit was pre-empted. Rats.
I can't help but notice that you are editing previous posts with statements that attempt to deflect or address subsequent posters points.
Why can't you just make your points sequentially, in response to other people?
I am finding you increasingly 'repugnant' on a personal level. I think your jetsgo comments are the final evidence, to me, that you are not actually a member of this industry but an outside advocate, either paid or simply dedicated, of unionization.
I am, clearly, not a particularly pro-union guy. But I make no bones about it. Why can you not simply come out and say so, and further more, clearly state the logical, practical reasons for unionization?
This community, for all its pettiness and foolishness, debates all these issues with the nuance and passion that can only come from the reality of being there, day in and day out.
Unless you can own up to this, or at least address my assertions here DIRECTLY, I'm done here. On the theory that any publicity is good publicity, and you don't need any more.
You haven't made a single point that has really stood up to criticism. Step up or step off 'Outsider' (read much Sartre lately?). C'mon, it's just the internet. Nobody even knows you.
ef
EDIT: Aww, my dramatic exit was pre-empted. Rats.
Last edited by 'effin hippie on Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
im not totally for unions ether, they do protect the lazy person, but they also stop brown noses from butting in line, even a pilot association would be better than nothing. We need something other than a good job market to keep management in check. And by the way I am a working pilot, mostly employed in the special air service and contract work and I have been at airlines earlier on. And having worked at all the diff places I would take the contract or union job over the rest. Listen I dont have all the answers , all I can say is that I totally disagree with training bonds. You sound more like a manger than a pilot.
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'effin hippie
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Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
Oh, you're back. Delightful.
Anything of substance to say?
ef
Anything of substance to say?
ef
Re: Legality of Training Bonds?
yes one final thing, take it easy, good luck, got a feeling u will need it
