I work at WJ, and am embarrassed at the mud slinging that is going on. The reference that Sunwing is like Jetsgo is frankly insulting to any of us that consider ourselves professionals. I will say that I hurt when another carrier suffers, and admit that anytime another airline folds it adds "fuel to WJ's Fire" in that WJ gets to know say "HEY! LOOK!!!! we are doing everything right by not acting like an airline" see everyone! We are the only airline that can be successful.
It is really sad because it creates an "us vs them" attitude. I LOVE being at WJ, this is truly our only major fault (in my opinion)
I also am very impressed by Sunwing, they appear to be successful and offer an incredible inflight service (WITH NO JOKES!!! ) The only thing would be better leg room! We need a third competitive carrier in Canada to keep us all in check!
whipline wrote:
The pilot group requested that a bond be put in place to protect us from our own. Pilots saying they would make a two year commitment and not honouring it. Its simple. You say you are going to stay for two years and in fact you do stay for two years then nothing to worry about. You lie and leave then you get to pay a small portion back.
seriously??? what were you guys thinking?
how many years of employment did sunwing management promise you when they hired you?
what would your recourse be if they broke their promise?
if the sunwing pilot group or sunwing management wants a level of commitment from it's pilot group then you do so by creating an environment where most want to stay or you hire pilots as contract employees. training bonds or promise notes do not belong in aviation and especially at this level IMHO.
Nothing personal is exactly what I meant. Nothing in my posts was a comparison to WestJet.
I take no pleasure in airline failures.
Troubleshot, it is absurd to believe that my blood would boil if another airline is succesful. On the contrary, the sooner that we have some stability in this country the sooner we can fix a few wage problems across the board. The sooner we have some success stories in Canada the sooner we can differentiate ourselves from the airline industry in the US and maybe get a a fair dollar for stock. AC is getting kicked in the nuts again and trading sub $5 as an example. Some stability in Canada's airlines will have trickle down effects that will benefit us all at every tier of aviation.
In my opinion - Sunwing will not contribute to the long term stability of this industry. I believe that their product is fundamentally flawed by virtue of cramming 189 seats in the back of an 800. Not a good time for a lot of people. Not the sort of flight experience that will generate alot of repeat business for a lot of people.
As far as tour operators go - I think that NewAir will likely teach the Sunwing people a thing or 2 when they start up in the fall.
I know domestic travel is not Sunwings main stream of revenue, but we have seen what happens to airlines that offer this kind of pricing in the long run. This is not good for anybody. I hope they start charging fair prices, so we don't see thousands of people stranded in the Dominican the next time a hurricane rips through the island. My advice to Sunwing: charge a fair price and pay your pilots the same as WJ pays. That way we all win!
There was an airline that zoomed across the atlantic all summer for $199, what ever happened to them?
Air Transat still has nearly 3 times the capacity of Sunwing and you don't see them giving away seats like this..
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Last edited by WetJet on Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
don't those prices look a lot like some other defunct airline I know. Oops, I meant to say 'Poor Sunwing'. I'm sorry, but it's an animal I'm starting to get good at recognizing...
How the hell are they buying those fancy -800's on fares like that?! I'll tell you, they're paying today's bills on tommorow's flights. Sounds familiar to you? It should.
Sunwing's principals have been around a long while selling vacations. Not likely they're going to need advice from this forum to continue suceeding.
Probably a little inflammatory as a thread topic, but this is AvCanada.
Probably will never be a comfortable status quo in this industry in terms of competitors rising and falling. Best just to get used to it and base your career expectations incorporating some kind of chaos theory as the underpinning.
Hugh Boyle sold vacations for a long time too. In fact their CEO recieved the "Under 40 CEO of the year" from some organization or other. John Lecky was considered a pretty sharp businessman as well if memory serves.
Kudos and awards are meaningless.
That's not to bash Sunwing since I know absolutely nothing about them. But as you know Jonny the landscape is littered with the corpses of airlines whose owners and CEO's were considered genius's a few weeks before the downfall.
And, even though they've been in the travel business for so long doesn't make them experts at running an airline, which hasn't even been running for 3 years yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hoping they fail or anything, I'm just pissed at how many of my fellow airline employees seem to get screwed over and over again and some things just don't ever change. I do hope Sunwing does well, but frankly, the pattern seems to be there, the signs seem to be there...
"Ernst & Young recently named Sunwing's owners Colin and Stephen Hunter as entrepreneurs of the year after reviewing the company's books."
Isn't this the same award that Clive Bedoe, Tim Morgan, Don Bell and Mark Hill all received for WestJet about 4 years ago?? Ernst/Young is pretty well respected so I'm not sure I want to join in on the opinion.
As for the 300K figure... I'd heard that was for two Captain's in the Training Department. And I heard that one from a Captain in the Training Department.
You guys need to realize and accept that Sunwing is NOT a traditional airline. They are a tour operator that uses there own airplanes to fly their customers. You keep harping about 189 seats on an 800 and $50 fares to Calgary, but that has nothing to do with the bottom line.
Skyservice puts 180 on a 320 because to be honest, passenger comfort in this line of work doesn't matter that much. Most Sunwing passengers take 1 vacation a year and they don't care how they get there, they just want to get the best deal. That is why leisure carriers cram them in..
The cheap fares that were posted above may look scary, but you must remember that this domestic flying program is MAYBE 10% of the flying Sunwing does. They make their money in the winter, and they are not selling the whole plane at that price.
BTW, check out some of Transat's fares to Orlando this month - $39, $49 bucks... This is not that uncommon for charter airlines to do.
Westjet has done its fair share of cheap seats. We continue to flood the market with "our" price point - the price where we make money. This does not necessarily make it the "market" price. If we can make money at a certain price, but it is less than what the public "should" pay, does this make us any different?
We are a LCC. I get it. But what does this do to the industry? I could care less what AC needs to break even, but are we not doing the same to our colleagues elsewhere? Eventually, (and don't kid yourself), our costs are going to go up in relation to increased maintenance, depreciating assets, overhead, wages, benefits, etc... Our ticket prices are going to go up to cover this so that the shareholders are happy. So how are we different?
This bashing of everybody else is getting out of hand. Soon, the mood around here is going to change......
TimTam, WJ700 and John D I think we are all on the same wavelength.
To answer the question about the bond. You are told what the job entails during the interview. You are asked to make a two year comittment. If you say yes and keep your word, nothing to worry about. The flying is great, the airplanes are well maintained, good pay, good training. No matter what you build some pilots are going to leave. The question is do we want to give a new hire a 50,000 course for free and watch them leave in a month or keep the money and spread it out amongst the pilots that stay. Answer, training bond. No one is forcing you to take the job.
The math is simple. 10 pilots leave it costs 500,000. That 500,000 would equal a 5000 raise for the other 100 pilots. I'll take the raise and they can pay their bond.
Westjet seat sale on Page A11 of today's Globe and Mail: 9$ fare (1 way) between montreal and ottawa. Perhaps a new thread: Westjet advertises like Jetsgo?
whipline wrote:
To answer the question about the bond. You are told what the job entails during the interview. You are asked to make a two year comittment. If you say yes and keep your word, nothing to worry about. The flying is great, the airplanes are well maintained, good pay, good training. No matter what you build some pilots are going to leave. The question is do we want to give a new hire a 50,000 course for free and watch them leave in a month or keep the money and spread it out amongst the pilots that stay. Answer, training bond. No one is forcing you to take the job.
The math is simple. 10 pilots leave it costs 500,000. That 500,000 would equal a 5000 raise for the other 100 pilots. I'll take the raise and they can pay their bond.
please answer my original questions directly if able:
how many years of employment did sunwing management promise you when they hired you?
what would your recourse be if they broke their promise?
as well as this one:
what would happen to your training bind if sunwing shutdown?
on the surface it appears as though sunwing's training bond is a one way street
WJ700 wrote:"Ernst & Young recently named Sunwing's owners Colin and Stephen Hunter as entrepreneurs of the year after reviewing the company's books."
Isn't this the same award that Clive Bedoe, Tim Morgan, Don Bell and Mark Hill all received for WestJet about 4 years ago?? Ernst/Young is pretty well respected so I'm not sure I want to join in on the opinion.
As for the 300K figure... I'd heard that was for two Captain's in the Training Department. And I heard that one from a Captain in the Training Department.
Didn't know that. Good for them, then! Hopefully things aren't as they look on the surface then, and as I said earlier, I'm not on the hope-Sunwing-will-fail squad, I'm just sick of companies exploiting employees until the company closes it's doors with no notice.
Cheers.
Is it true that new pilots don't get paid until they have the ppc finished?
If so, that's crap. Your first month of training for a new company with no paycheck??
Well Well Well.... I might very well regret answering this post... but here goes.
Yeah I agree on the not being on the pay role from day one. However I will say that the $100.00 a day for expenses worked out to much more than the 1/2 pay scale when I was on course at West Jet 6 years ago.
I have no complaints as far as pay goes. Granted there will not be any stock option millionaires here... but I have been treated worse. Not saying it is perfect.... then again I don't think such a thing exists anywhere.
I will also say that it would of been great to go to AC.... but again I can not afford the first two years pay there either. All in all this little company has been pretty good to me. Glad to have a job.... and yes I hope I still have one this time next year. Don't we all?
ea306 wrote:
...I will also say that it would of been great to go to AC.... but again I can not afford the first two years pay there either. All in all this little company has been pretty good to me. Glad to have a job.... and yes I hope I still have one this time next year. Don't we all?
Why do Canadian Pilots feel the need to crap all over everyone else's place of employment? It's not a constructive debate.
As for Sunwings training bond, as far as I'm aware there is no money upfront. You pay if you leave within two years, this is fairly common globally. You're welcome to come join me in Europe, where most airlines require you to pay the entire cost of training, plus pay reduced pay while online till final line check.
I hope the crews at Sunwing have a productive and profitable Winter.
if there isn't any money upfront for a training bond then this would appear to better then jetsgo as you wouldn't be on the hook for the balance if sunwing shutdown before your bond was up
what sort of commitment are you making in writing then?
a for training for free which is what you are doing even though you receive expenses, if sunwing could hire TR DECs and FOs then they would
i'm sure that they can't staff the entire airline this way and they have to hire nonTR DECs and FOs
well that's too bad but either candidate should get paid from day one
why do pilots continue to sell themselves short and and measure each other solely based on the TR that they have
didn't we all complete our PPL, CPL, MEIFR and ATPL to get here?
Valhalla ...and what reputation is that?
That we like to gossip and argue like the rest on here, or that were hung like donkeys with the stamina of a marathon .? I'm just kidding (I can only run a half marathon)
Seriously, it’s safe to say in this environment when anyone sees a company (any company, WJ included) expanding as rapidly as Sunwing is, ya can’t help but question it and wonder if it’s too much too fast. Sorry it’s aviation; I’m a skeptic if not cautiously optimistic.
No one on here is wishing Sunwing ill, infact I hope they do well!!! Sounds like a great place to work.
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The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
$9 dollar fares, training bonds and too-rapid expansion are good debate topics. Saying Sunwing is like Jetsgo is not. You may disagree since you are now a coolaid drinking Westjet pilot, but when Westjet pilots post expert opinions on why other companies are not as good as Westjet then they perpetuate the stereotype that Westjet pilots think Westjet is the only successful airline in the world.
I have many good friends at Westjet, and I know this reputation is not true of most Westjet pilots, but that's what I meant by my comment.
$9 dollar fares, training bonds and too-rapid expansion are good debate topics. Saying Sunwing is like Jetsgo is not. You may disagree since you are now a coolaid drinking Westjet pilot, but when Westjet pilots post expert opinions on why other companies are not as good as Westjet then they perpetuate the stereotype that Westjet pilots think Westjet is the only successful airline in the world.
I have many good friends at Westjet, and I know this reputation is not true of most Westjet pilots, but that's what I meant by my comment.
Can't take a joke...nor did I ever (or would ever) compare Sunwing to Jetsgo. They had better looking FA's...(thats a joke to).
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The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
) The only thing would be better leg room! We need a third competitive carrier in Canada to keep us all in check!
