Frozen ATPL....WOrth IT???

[oneill10999]

Hello, everyone
All Pilots, i need your Mentoring and wisdom .

I need some advice and some wisdom on this one, and only someone who has lived it can provide the answer to this Sticky little question haha .....

At MFC(moncton flight college), you can pay, $45,000 to do a 1 year integrated program, and receive your Commercial, Multi, IFR(1).....You Get 400+ hours of ground school(40 of which is a special cource focusing on Crew Resource management) ,also you get 7.5 hours on a King Air Sim(above and beyond your required flight time for the Commercial,Multi, IFR) , and most importantly you receive a ""Frozen ATPL"" that will be Frozen for up to 5 years until you get your 1500 hours of flight time, at which time the ATPL will be activated.

HOWEVER......For $37,500, So $7500 Less... You can do a Modular program, where you will also get Your Commercial, Multi, IFR(1). However, You only get 200 hours of ground school, half that of the integrated program(400+ hours)(and you do not receive the 40 special ground school hours focussing on crew resource management), you also do not get the 7.5 hours of bonus flight time on the King Air Sim, and YOU DO NOT get the ""Frozen ATPL".......

Im just wondering... Is it worth 7500$ to have someone prepare you for/give you a ground school to prepare for the ATPL, and then write it and have it already in place and Frozen waiting to be activated when you do hit 1500 hours of flight time????? Or should i save the $7500... and worry about Studying for, and writing the ATPL when i reach 1500 hours... Or is it worth 7500$ just to have someone help me study for it, and get it written and out of the way before i even finish flight school, so its there in place and finished and ready to go????

Thanks Everyone

[I Я Instructor]

I believe the ATPL exams are only good for 2 years. If you don't get your 1500 PIC or 3000 DUAL!!! within those 2 years they expire. Buying a PPC on a King Air is always good to get that first job though many people will want to tear you a new one for that.

[philknight29]

I think you will find the fATPL is a JAA program. If you complete the JAA ATPL Ground school and the CPL/IR/ME you get a Frozen ATPL it doesn't matter if you do it modular or integrated. Moncton has a connection with Crapair (Cabair) in the UK to provide Modular and Integrated training in Canada.

Unless you have work authorization in Europe or another JAA State it's not worth a Dime.

As far as I'm aware and I'm new to Canadian Aviation there is no such thing as a fATPL.

[oneill10999]

Thanks to both of you!!

Wow, I did not know that a Frozen ATPL is of no value in Canada, and that if it is, you only have 2 years to get 1500 hours as PIC or 3000 Dual!! Thats Crazy!!

Thats soo weird, BC , MFC is offering an integrated course, that gives you a frozen ATPL, and I was told by them, that you have 5 years too get 1500 hours?????

Also, when you said it is good to buy PPC on a king air.... what exactly did you mean? and why would people be mad?? haha sorry... im new to all of this... .... and is 7.5 hours of sim time in a king air worth 7500$, and is 40 hours of ground school focussing on Crew resource mngmnt important?

[BTD]

I feel a troll. But anyway.

In Canada the integrated commercial or integrated commercial Multi IFR in no way relates to the ATPL at all. All it allows you to do is get a commercial licence signed off under a different set of requirements. I believe that for a Integrated Commercial all you need is 150 hrs, and for and IC with a multi ifr you only require 190 hrs, and complex aircraft time blah blah.

Once you have your commercial and IFR you are in no better situation to get your ATPL. You still require the 1500 hrs PIC/Dual or 3000 hrs Second in Command. Any written exam in Canada is only valid for 24 months from the time of writing.

Someone either gave you very bad info, you got some lines crossed somewhere, or you are just hollering with laughter at all these responses.

BTD

[just curious]

is 7.5 hours of sim time in a king air worth 7500$, and is 40 hours of ground school focussing on Crew resource mngmnt important?

No. And no, it doesn't give you a PPC. CRM is important, but a 40 hour course is excessive. Save your money

[200hr Wonder]

FYI an ATPL costs $70 - $35 for each test.

[Me1]

FYI - ATPL exams are good indefinitely if you get a two crew type rating within 2 years of writing the exams.

[short bus]

Iatra is good indefinitely if you get a type rating in the first two years after passing the exam. It doesn't work that way for the ATPL though. If you don't get the A license signed off after 2 years from passing the exams you'll be re-writing them again.

[E-Flyer]

Thanks to both of you!!

Wow, I did not know that a Frozen ATPL is of no value in Canada, and that if it is, you only have 2 years to get 1500 hours as PIC or 3000 Dual!! Thats Crazy!!

Thats soo weird, BC , MFC is offering an integrated course, that gives you a frozen ATPL, and I was told by them, that you have 5 years too get 1500 hours?????

Also, when you said it is good to buy PPC on a king air.... what exactly did you mean? and why would people be mad?? haha sorry... im new to all of this... .... and is 7.5 hours of sim time in a king air worth 7500$, and is 40 hours of ground school focussing on Crew resource mngmnt important?

Basically the kids in europe get their FATPL to get on right seat with a carrier. But they will also pay for their own Type Rating. You'll work with your CPL in Canada until you hit that 1500/2000 hour mark.

[Aeros]

Iatra is good indefinitely if you get a type rating in the first two years after passing the exam. It doesn't work that way for the ATPL though. If you don't get the A license signed off after 2 years from passing the exams you'll be re-writing them again.

Actually it DOES also work that way for the ATPL Exams. As long as you used the two exams as the knowledge requirement for a two-crew type rating the exams then become good for life and you are not held to the two-year time limit.

CAR 400.03

(1) Subject to subsection (3), tests, skill letters and examinations, including all sections of a sectionalized examination, that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24-month period immediately preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of

(a) a student pilot permit; or

(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written

(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;

...

[Aeros]

Wow, I did not know that a Frozen ATPL is of no value in Canada, and that if it is, you only have 2 years to get 1500 hours as PIC or 3000 Dual!! Thats Crazy!!

Thats soo weird, BC , MFC is offering an integrated course, that gives you a frozen ATPL, and I was told by them, that you have 5 years too get 1500 hours?????

I am not so sure that the information that you were given was incorrect. It would warrant some follow up on your part. I KNOW that MFC offers an Integrated Commercial Programme, do they also offer an "Airline Transport Pilot -- Integrated Aeroplane Course"? If they do, this does then give you five years to apply for the ATPL from the date that you completed the course.

CAR 400.03 (2) (b) (iii):

for the issuance of an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane, an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane integrated course was successfully completed during the 5-year period preceding the date of the application for the licence and a course completion certificate was issued.

[Stinky]

[FYI an ATPL costs $70 - $35 for each test.

Actually it's $105 for each test or $35 for the IATRA. It's a real ripoff , but they say it's because the ATPL is a license and the IATRA is an endorsement. If that's the case it should be $105 for the first exam and $35 for the second.
I've never heard of a frozen ATPL in Canada but I've known a lot of guys that end up in the bush with no time to study. If you want to get a job in the south you might find it difficult to find the time to study and get to a testing centre. Even if the exams expire it won't take as long to study the second time around. Mine expired and it only took 2 days of studying to rewrite them as opposed to several weeks.
I'm not saying it's a good deal though, you can write the IATRA on your own for $35 dollars and have the same qualifications as far as a lot of entry level jobs are concerned.

[Apollo]

Hello All,

I have one of these frozen ATPL dealies - wrote the SAMRA/SARON last year, and have 4 (yes four... thats FOUR) more years to get the minimum time - then it'll unfreeze assuming TC likes all the paperwork.

[Stinky]

I have one of these frozen ATPL dealies - wrote the SAMRA/SARON last year, and have 4 (yes four... thats FOUR) more years to get the minimum time - then it'll unfreeze assuming TC likes all the paperwork.

What did you do differently to get 4 years as opposed to 2?
What does your license say?

[av38rd]

Apollo is correct. The fATPL's that are offered by certain institutions in Canada are good for 5 years. Until that time, you simply have a commercial licence, and that is what your licence will say. No difference from any other ATPL other than the time limit to get the required hours. If you don't get the required hours in 5 years, you have to rewrite.

[Apollo]

Writing the ATPLs also act as an IATRA until they expire (5 years), so it's kind of convienent.

[oneill10999]

Yeahh, thats exactly what MFC told me. That i have it frozen (the ATPL) for 5 years... andd if i hit 1500 hours within 45 years of graduating than my Frozen ATPL will be activated. If i do not hit 1500 hours before 5 years, than I have to rewrite my ATPL all over again once i do hit 1500 hours, and the original frozen one was of NO USE. So on that note, Is it worth the extra 6000$-7000$ to get someone to train me to write my ATPL and then write it while at MFC.... soo is it worth 6000$ to just get it out of the way, and write it while in pilot school , when all the information is freshhh in my head. OR should i save the $$$ and just write it when i need to (once i get 1500 hours) but then if i wait, i may have to do a lot of studying, bc it is 4 -5 years after pilot school an the Ground school infor is not fresh in my head. Because I can get My Commercial, MUlti, IFR (1) licenses in 1 year at MFC for 45,000$, or for 61,000$, I get all of thoses licenses, but i also get ...... 7.5 hrs of sim time in a KING air Sim, 40 hours of Crew resource mangement ground school, and prepared for and writing the ATPL which is then Frozen, and its finished and written and if i hit 1500 hours within 5 years of finishing at MFC i do not have to write the ATPL again, it is just activated, and i now have an ATPL..... So the Question is.... IS this extra stuff (7.5 hours King Air sim, 40 hrs CRM ground school, and Most Important ...an ATPL written while the info. is still fresh in your head while in pilot school) WORTH THE EXTRA 6000$... Cheers

Apollo is correct. The fATPL's that are offered by certain institutions in Canada are good for 5 years. Until that time, you simply have a commercial licence, and that is what your licence will say. No difference from any other ATPL other than the time limit to get the required hours. If you don't get the required hours in 5 years, you have to rewrite.

[Aeros]

I would vote for saving your money. The extra goodies that you get (Sim and CRM) aren't really worth that much $$$$. If it's the ATPL exams that you are worried about, wait until you are close to the 1500 hour mark and give the folks at AeroCourse a shout. They will get you ready to write the exams over a couple of days. The fees for that course are less than $500.

You certainly don't get $5500 in value from the KA Sim and the CRM ground school -- at least not in my view anyway. Get the Commercial and then worry about the ATPL on your own.

[just curious]

The 7500 hundred dollars are a huge deal to consider. Finishing a commercial, you have several years before an ATPL becomes a requirement for a job.

Your grasp of CRM is tenuous at the 200 hour mark, because you aren't working in a 2 crew environment with a more level experience/ training level.

The sim time won't lead to a PPC. It won't reduce an employer's cost. A frozen ATPL is dependent on you flying just 3oo hours of PIC a year over 5 years or 600 hours of FO. If you're working, you'll do that anyway.

The 7500 you save will cover high speed internet anywhere, which will yield you the info to get you ATPL studies, King Air info, and the whole world of CRM complete to the videos.

Save your money for when you need it. You will.

[rimo]

need your help guys ....i was planning after complete my cpl multi ifr here in canada to set the 14 exam jaa to get the frozen atpl .... cauz in my country its important to have an atpl ....now just wondering if i can get the atpl here frozen after complete my training cauz what i know is you cant set below 750 h tt
hope that i can write my canadian frozen atpl with 250 hours

tks

[philknight29]

If you are planning on doing the JAA fATPL don't do the IR in Canada it won't be acceptable to any JAA State for conversion and you will have to complete the Full IR Conversion. Most of it is done in the Sim, GPS are not allowed. The CPL can be done anywhere in the world apparently.

If you have done a TC or FAA CPL you'll breeze through the CPL flight portion. It's a real Joke that the JAA seem to think there certificates are something special.

The only requirement to sit the JAA ATPL Exams are an ICAO PPL. But you have to either do a full groundschool course of something like 1000 hours, or 8-12 Months of Distance Learning plus a brush up course with the Distance Learning Provider. Then you will be signed off to take the exams. But you can't complete a single Skills Test until you have passed all 14 writtens.

[oneill10999]

Thanks guys, really thankyou..... Yeah the ATP's is what i was worried about the most.... On that note... Whats a better idea upon graduating in all of your guys oppinions..... Do u guys Think that a guy should work Ramp for a year to get on as an F/O with a company? ie PE air? ....... orrrr should i say screw that route, and gowith getting my Class 4 instrucotr rating, and gain hours n a single engine? and then write my group 3 instructor so i can instruct on MULTI??.. and gain al my hours that way??
What do all you guys think?
Cheers

I would vote for saving your money. The extra goodies that you get (Sim and CRM) aren't really worth that much $$$$. If it's the ATPL exams that you are worried about, wait until you are close to the 1500 hour mark and give the folks at AeroCourse a shout. They will get you ready to write the exams over a couple of days. The fees for that course are less than $500.

You certainly don't get $5500 in value from the KA Sim and the CRM ground school -- at least not in my view anyway. Get the Commercial and then worry about the ATPL on your own.

[just curious]

Instruct. Tell PEI air to pound.

[oneill10999]

haha lol ...... whyyy??? is PE AIR shiaat to work for?...or are you just dead against ramp work, and think just get right into flying?

Instruct. Tell PEI air to pound.