Speaking French on the radio

[F,D and H]

Like i said before, if you Red Necks would spend half the time you waste on this forum
at learning a few words in french, then according to yourself the sky would be safer.
But then again bitching on this forum is a lot more fun and easier for some of you guys,
then actually learning 12 words in french.

BS

I speak french semi-fluently and I still haven't a clue as to what they're saying a good percentage of the time

[orbit]

"Oh, and I bet the lufthansa guys speak german on the radio when they get back to frankfurt"

They don't! they speak English...even when taxiing and guess was the follow me truck sign was also in..English...!!!! Yes this all in Frankfurt!

I was up front on landing years ago before it was banned .

so lame and tiring as this political view of yours; french speaking culture will always be there and all others in the world ...
and think of it when the sun consumes the earth as it will eventually does it really matter?
.....so can't we go beyond the politics and move on !???

[bmc]

I would like to remind everyone that Canada elected to be a bilingual country, english AND french.

Switzerland is trinligual, fly into the international in Geneva and try speaking German, Italian or French and see what happens

Switzerland has four languages: French, Italian, German and Romansch.

If you try speaking to controllers in Geneva in French, they will answer you in French.

I live in Geneva. This is the French part of the country. You will hear french/english spoken all the time. Geneva Intl Airport has a parallel grass runway used by local pilots. More often than not, communications are in French. The small local fields use French all the time, moreso than English.

[jetflightinstructor]

They don't! they speak English...even when taxiing and guess was the follow me truck sign was also in..English...!!!! Yes this all in Frankfurt!

I forgot about Germany, I flew there years ago, thats hard to believe that at the local domestic airport they dont speak german. But I have flown in few very important and large countries, and not on the jump seat, they dont speak english when they fly domestic. In some country you even cannot fly domestic if you are not able to pass the local language radio communication test. It seems to me that you fly only in Canada, and you want to explain to us expat pilot how it works out there.

I reckon that the FOLLOW ME truck sign is always almost written in english though.

I speak french semi-fluently and I still haven't a clue as to what they're saying a good percentage of the time

Just focus on learning the radio communication in french. If you speak french a bit already, it wont take long. Few weeks.

Switzerland is trinligual, fly into the international in Geneva and try speaking German, Italian or French and see what happens

In an international airport you have to speak english. However a lot of international airport actually are bilingual.

In a perfect world everyone would use the same language and the language problem would not exist

Thats exactly what Hitler wanted to do. And he wanted to get rid off differents culture aswell... perfect world one language?...
Ok just kidding CAT, I understand that you speak about radio communication, then I agree. But the reality is truly different right now.

F.D and H, your post is quite confusing.


Ok lets say that english became slowly the international language after the second world war (this war when Europe destroyed itself) helped with the fact that suddenly USA became the first economy in the world. But now? The world is changing fast again, everything is in motion.

Europe became the first economy power in the world in 2005, and China is supposed to catch USA in 18 years.

GDP:
World54,620,000

1 European Union16,620,000
2 United States13,840,000

Source: CIA World Factbook (for 2007)

You guys have no idea with what you will deal with in 25-30 years (CAT you are retired I know), but still you cannot improve the SA in your own country and dealing with 2 official languages that are very well known, and easy to learn.

If english is still the first language for international communication in the future, well I am ok with that, it wont change anything for me. But if it happens that the world become a real multi culture and multi power one... who knows... and you guys will have a hell of a bad time. Me? I already had to learn 2 different language in order to fly safely... and really dont mind...

[F,D and H]

I would like to remind everyone that Canada elected to be a bilingual country, english AND french.

Switzerland is trinligual, fly into the international in Geneva and try speaking German, Italian or French and see what happens

Switzerland has four languages: French, Italian, German and Romansch.

If you try speaking to controllers in Geneva in French, they will answer you in French.

I live in Geneva. This is the French part of the country. You will hear french/english spoken all the time. Geneva Intl Airport has a parallel grass runway used by local pilots. More often than not, communications are in French. The small local fields use French all the time, moreso than English.

Does Swissair speak french in Geneva's airspace?

This forum wasn't about the local guys bombing around, it was about AC and Jazz guys on the radios.

[petpad]

This clip seems to illustrate well what's going on here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhgv85m8 ... re=related

[bmc]

Does Swissair speak french in Geneva's airspace?

This forum wasn't about the local guys bombing around, it was about AC and Jazz guys on the radios.

French is allowed in Switzerland in the lower airspace within Geneva FIR (Flight information Region) from 24,500 feet and below. Geneva tower and the lower sectors of Geneva centre can provide French when the pilot addresses ATC in French. Flight information enroute is also available in French as far as Bern. German is not allowed anywhere except for VFR aircraft.

Not sure if Swiss (no longer Swissair since 2002) procedurally tell their pilots to only use English. Flights between Zurich and Geneva can be below 24,500 feet, so technically, part of route can be spoken in French.

[jetflightinstructor]

Language language language...

One of the requirements in Europe to become spationaute is to be able to speak russian. Will they add chinese in 20 years?

in 2010 only 2 countries will have a space shuttle: China, and Russia (US will stop the actual one operation in 2010). Do the chinese spationaute speak chinese in space? of course! they dont even speak english. Do the Russians speak russian when they fly in space? YES.

The most cost efficient Rocket in the world is Arianne the european Rocket. It is launched from french Guyanna each week. The official language there is french.

What does that mean??? It means that in space from 2010 spationaute will speak everything but english.

And you cannot let your crew speak french on the radio in quebec, where french is an official language? The problem is that you didnt learn one of the official language of Canada. Here is the real problem. At the begining of the thread I agreed with the fact that we all have to speak english for safety reasons. And after I have read arrogants, non polite, non respectful (not everything at the same time ) post, and I remembered I had to learn english, then chinese to fly safely. And chinese is not an official language to me, I just learnt the chinese radio communication for my own safety.

I forgot, the chinese will start to build a base on the moon from 2020. What language are we going to speak on the moon?

Ok maybe everything will change, maybe the US will wake up, because they wont want to be dependant on the russians to have access to the ISS in 2010, the only space station we have now. maybe, after the financial crisis, they will accelerate their shuttle program to avoid to be dependant at all.... maybe maybe maybe.......

Language language language...


What language was speaking Yves Rossy yesterday when he crossed the channel on his jet wing?

[Ref Plus 10]

i hate to point it out, and not that I'm saying you're wrong, but you're comparing apples and oranges...the Chinese space crew, the russian space crew, they don't have other spacecraft to resolve conflicts with. Now, when we are all zooming around in space, I'm sure we will have one universal language.

However, for the time being, English is that language.

Merci

[jetflightinstructor]

Now, when we are all zooming around in space, I'm sure we will have one universal language.

Sure. And it may not be english. And only then you will understand how restrictive you are not willing to learn the other official language of Canada to increase your SA. Learning it wont deserve you. You will just have an other skill. That is all. It won' t hurt you.you will be able to speak in north africa, down to chad, half belgium, half switzerland, french guyanna, France, Quebec, 200 000 000persons. That is 7 times Canada. And you will be a complete citizen. Your SA will be total west through eastof your country.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

And you will be a complete citizen.

How do you figure you would be a complete citizen by learning french?

How about all the north American Indian languages, they were spoken long before the English and French showed up in what is now called Canada.

And from what I have seen of the French speaking countries in Africa, I wouldn't be to proud of what those places are if I were you.....and I have been to most of them.

[scopiton]

why is this subject coming back regularly ?
if you don't understand french just ask the guy who just made a report to say it again in english
if he doesn't speak english and you don't spek french open your eyes
that is not so complicated
in international airport trust controllers, they are aware of the situation
learning few key words of one of the 2 official language wont hurt
but don't begin to force people to choose 1 language

. you're right, french is not official language now in north africa as it was when they were fench provinces, my memory but it still curently and comonly spoken over there
a lot of different countries participated to do of africa what it is now, and yes some participated a lot more than others

[jetflightinstructor]

And from what I have seen of the French speaking countries in Africa, I wouldn't be to proud of what those places are if I were you.....and I have been to most of them.

Dear CAT,

give me an example of one country YOU HAVE BEEN, where the fact to speak french deserve the inhabitant, and tell me from what you "have seen" why.

[Bush League]

This post has drifted badly off topic.
Lets simplify again since we seem to have to.

Ask yourself this:

If everyone on the radio, regardless of location, spoke the same language, would situational awareness be increased?

Of course it would. Period.

This is not about who should learn what language in their spare time because of the country they live in or where they are flying. This is aviation where safety culture should be the #1 culture. If we could all do something as simple as communicate, in a way that worldwide, everyone in the air could understand and be safer, why wouldn't we?
It's that simple.
It shouldn't matter what 'system' any other country has, or what your native tongue is. The official language of aviation could be German, Italian, Chinese, French, English or Wingdings, non of us should care. As long as everyone communicates in a way that everyone understands, then we are all more aware and therefore safer in the air. In the end, it's not about our individual backgrounds, we just owe it to our passengers to collectively do the best job we can.

...And another thing. As for this 'ATC speaks every language so don't worry' BS. Some people seem to believe that ATC are all flawless robots? For some strange reason I feel safer/more situationally aware while approaching knowing who's in front and behind than somewhere I don't, and being blindly led around by the nose.

[jetflightinstructor]

Code: Select all

It shouldn't matter what 'system' any other country has, or what your native tongue is

1-So which language and system would you pick up right now?

2-And what is you native tongue?

3-Is the question 1 and 2 answer the same?

But as you said, it shouldn't matter, so we are fine, ... I mean you are fine then hehe

4-If your native tongue were not english (or if chinese were the international radio comunication), would you write exactly the same post? I mean HONNESTLY?

5-are you expecting 2 russians pilot to speak to each other in english when they fly at their local airport?

6-If you fly regularly to the same airport as the one above, how to increase your SA?

7-If you fly everyday to quebec city, how to improve youd SA?

8-Are you going to wait that A-all local airport in quebec actually speak english (which could never happen) to improve your SA, or B-will you learn in one month the french radio communication? Wich decision is the safest and the closest to the reality?

Culture now: "perfect world": expression used by Hitler, Staline, and in the book "1984". Does a perfect world exist? If yes, would it be as perfect as promised?

Ok cheers everyone, what ever your language. Fly safe. Improve your SA as I did.

[QFE]

The only laguage you will hear at MAJOR airports in Europe is English.Flew there for many years.
Canada is not officially bilingual,nor does it have two offiicial languages.It is only the Parliament of Canada and its institutions which have two official languages and which can be classified as bilingual.
This is not really about English/French-its a Quebec thing.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

flightinstructor when I was flying for TF1 television ( A French company. ) here is the answer to your questions:

Dear CAT,

give me an example of one country YOU HAVE BEEN, where the fact to speak french deserve the inhabitant,

Benin.

Burkina Faso.

Chad.

Congo.

Djibouti.

Gabon.

Mali.

Senegal.

and tell me from what you "have seen" why.

I have seen a lot of Africa and the best comparison I can make between West Africa and East Africa would be between Mali which is French and Malawi which is English.

Malawi was less of a shit hole than the French speaking countries.

But that of course is off topic as far as the language to use in aviation.

[Rebel]

I really don’t want to get involved in this discussion but I couldn’t help myself. In my experience I’ve noticed that the German speaking ATC/pilots speak better English then anyone else whose mother tongue is not English There are probably multi reasons for this, one of them being German is closer to English in pronunciation then French. Whatever. One of the other reasons is obvious. IMHO the outer ring French ATC controllers need to brush up on their language skills however the closer you get in the better it gets.

There are many many countries in the world that need to improve their English ATC skills so you learn to be very careful.

I believe the original topic was AC and Jazz pilots playing stupid with the language issue. Okay the short of it, in my experience we do have Nationalist French speaking pilots who insist on playing the language game. Again in my experience these pilots usually have a hard time operating into busy US/UK terminal areas at times boarding on dangerous, as they don’t always comprehend ATC instructions. Unfortunately it’s true, ignorance over rules safety whatever..Just as a matter of interest LAX ATC folks always have someone Spanish speaking to avoid screw-ups.

Until something bad happens nothing is going to change, so learn to adapt…Oh and learning another language is a good thing, it never hurt anyone.

[Liquid Charlie]

With all this my only question is why this only seems to be an issue in Canada -- no where else I have flown do people get so hot under the collar when they don't hear English on the radio -- great to be Canadian -- eh -- damn we are so cosmopolitan. Who cares if Jazz and AC conduct flights in French -

[Bush League]

It's great that you guys love busting out the 'Hitler' references on the fly. I'm sure the hundreds of thousands who lost their lives in that conflict would agree with you using that argument in an aviation safety thread. Well played.

Anyways...
Being bored today I was checking out some of those LIVEATC links posted in another thread.

After listening to the Air-Transat Panic one (highly entertaining btw) I scrolled down to discover this exact same topic
has manifested itself over there too. A few very good points are reiterated by experienced pilots who are not Canadian
and the atmosphere is generally more logical than reactionary. (But still lively!)

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviati ... ockpit/15/


If you guys are too lazy for a little read, here is one post I thought hit the nail on the head.

Hi guys,

I'm an airline pilot and fly medium-haul all over Europe and North Africa. I speak Dutch (my mother tongue) as well as French, English, German and a little bit of Spanish.

Of course, and I'm sorry it is like that, it's allowed by ICAO that French controllers speak French to Air France pilots, greeks speak Greek, Italians speak Italian, and Spanish ATC use Spanish on the frequency.

Is it allowed? Yes? Is it smart? NO way!!!

It would be so much easier and safer for everybody if everybody would simply use the same language on the radio. It's not hard, you know!! In Holland and Belgium (and many other non-anglophone countries) all ATC is done in English. Using the local language is simply prohibited in controlled airspace!

As soon as you start training for a ppl in Holland, you will start to learn the English you need to fly in controlled airspace. And believe me, everybody learns it. Yes, even the french-speaking student pilot in Belgium will soon become proficient in English. In our Belgian airline about 50 % of the pilots have french as their mother tongue, but they will all agree that it would be better to use only ONE COMMON LANGUAGE on the frequency (And then English would be the obvious choice. Russian? OK! Give me 1 year transition period and I'll learn Russian!!) Our airline, as most airlines in Belgium, Germany, Holland, Scandinavia) only allows English to be used for conversation with ATC.

Why would it be easier (and safer) if everybody spoke one language? Well, for instance I would know when a conversation between Athens ATC and a Greek aircraft has ended and I can start speaking without interfering with an ongoing conversation. It would be easier if I were able to understand the weather report that Rome ATC was giving to Alitalia's destination that happens to be my alternate destination.
It would be easier (and safer) if everybody would understand Air France position and associated turbulence report. Etc, etc,... Isn't that so obvious that it doesn't need further explanation?

Why would it be safer? Well, EVERYBODY'S situational problem would improve. Yes, it may be the controller's responsibility to keep us apart, but surely you will have to admit that controllers are human and therefore sometimes make mistakes. Using one common language increases the chance that someone might catch the mistake.

I understand enough French, Spanish and Italian to be able to understand transmissions that contain nice-to-know information, but were not available to the Greek Olympic flight in the same airspace!

It sure was nice to understand the 2 Iberia flights in front of me reporting Windshear on short final. This info was never passed on to me! When I confirmed the windshear after landing, I did advice the Tower that this would have been nice info to have BEFORE we landed!

I am sure that the pilot who lost his live on may 25th 2000 in Charles De Gaulle would have appreciated one common language on the air! (check: http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 20000525-0 )

My experience on this subject is that everybody originating from a country that imposes the use of English agrees that that is such a good rule. Only people speaking other Big-Ego-Languages tend do disagree.

So if you ATCO's and pilots from Spain, Greece, Italy, France, Quebec or from any other other language with a bigger self-esteem then safety consciousness want to continue using your own language on the air, please do so. ICAO does indeed authorise it. But PLEASE stop arguing that using your own language is easier or just as safe as using one common language! That is BU...HIT!!

[Carrier]

Quote: “Until something bad happens..........”?????
Quote: “Who cares if Jazz and AC conduct flights in French -....”?????


Has nothing bad happened? Is this whole topic irrelevant? Is it really that difficult to understand the following extracts from an earlier post?

Quote: "ICAO New Language Proficiency Requirements: A Safety Priority For SEPLA
Between 1976 and 2000, more than 1,100 passengers and crew lost their lives in accidents in which investigators determined that language had played a contributory role. Moreover, numerous incidents involving language issues, including a number of runway incursions, are reported annually.”

Quote: “176 died in the crash between a BA Trident and a DC-9 on 10 September 1976. A major contributing factor to this mid-air crash was: “The controller was speaking in Croatian to the Yugoslavian plane, which meant that the Trident crew was deprived of information that might have saved their lives.”

Quote: “Flight crews, the travelling public and (as demonstrated at Lockerbie) those on the ground deserve better.” (Most of these would care, the exceptions being those flight crews and controllers who are causing the problem through their complete lack of consideration for the safety of others!)

[Rebel]

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviati ... ockpit/15/

Hi guys,

I'm an airline pilot and fly medium-haul all over Europe and North Africa. I speak Dutch (my mother tongue) as well as French, English, German and a little bit of Spanish.

Of course, and I'm sorry it is like that, it's allowed by ICAO that French controllers speak French to Air France pilots, greeks speak Greek, Italians speak Italian, and Spanish ATC use Spanish on the frequency.

Is it allowed? Yes? Is it smart? NO way!!!

It would be so much easier and safer for everybody if everybody would simply use the same language on the radio. It's not hard, you know!! In Holland and Belgium (and many other non-anglophone countries) all ATC is done in English. Using the local language is simply prohibited in controlled airspace!

As soon as you start training for a ppl in Holland, you will start to learn the English you need to fly in controlled airspace. And believe me, everybody learns it. Yes, even the french-speaking student pilot in Belgium will soon become proficient in English. In our Belgian airline about 50 % of the pilots have french as their mother tongue, but they will all agree that it would be better to use only ONE COMMON LANGUAGE on the frequency (And then English would be the obvious choice. Russian? OK! Give me 1 year transition period and I'll learn Russian!!) Our airline, as most airlines in Belgium, Germany, Holland, Scandinavia) only allows English to be used for conversation with ATC.

Why would it be easier (and safer) if everybody spoke one language? Well, for instance I would know when a conversation between Athens ATC and a Greek aircraft has ended and I can start speaking without interfering with an ongoing conversation. It would be easier if I were able to understand the weather report that Rome ATC was giving to Alitalia's destination that happens to be my alternate destination.
It would be easier (and safer) if everybody would understand Air France position and associated turbulence report. Etc, etc,... Isn't that so obvious that it doesn't need further explanation?

Why would it be safer? Well, EVERYBODY'S situational problem would improve. Yes, it may be the controller's responsibility to keep us apart, but surely you will have to admit that controllers are human and therefore sometimes make mistakes. Using one common language increases the chance that someone might catch the mistake.

I understand enough French, Spanish and Italian to be able to understand transmissions that contain nice-to-know information, but were not available to the Greek Olympic flight in the same airspace!

It sure was nice to understand the 2 Iberia flights in front of me reporting Windshear on short final. This info was never passed on to me! When I confirmed the windshear after landing, I did advice the Tower that this would have been nice info to have BEFORE we landed!

I am sure that the pilot who lost his live on may 25th 2000 in Charles De Gaulle would have appreciated one common language on the air! (check: http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 20000525-0 )

My experience on this subject is that everybody originating from a country that imposes the use of English agrees that that is such a good rule. Only people speaking other Big-Ego-Languages tend do disagree.

So if you ATCO's and pilots from Spain, Greece, Italy, France, Quebec or from any other other language with a bigger self-esteem then safety consciousness want to continue using your own language on the air, please do so. ICAO does indeed authorise it. But PLEASE stop arguing that using your own language is easier or just as safe as using one common language! That is BU...HIT!!

Good Post

One of the primary reasons for always using approved Standard English ATC phraseology is safety. Other languages do not fully comprehend “slang ATC English” which is common in both Canada/US nor do they understand local languages and that leads to misunderstandings that cause accidents.

Using a language other then English on frequency when there are probably others on frequency that do not understand your language is plain stupid and dangerous. Please don’t tell me that they are not aware of pilots on frequency that do not understand their language, because they are. If their not then they shouldn’t be pilots. On the other hand if you don’t understand what is said ask for a translation. It is problematic in high-density areas but so is the alternate of not knowing the whole picture.

I’ve always believed in keeping everyone in the loop as the safest avenue. But the nationalist emotional Big-Ego language issue always trumps safety. What’s wrong with this picture?

[Ref Plus 10]

Now, when we are all zooming around in space, I'm sure we will have one universal language.

Sure. And it may not be english. And only then you will understand how restrictive you are not willing to learn the other official language of Canada to increase your SA. Learning it wont deserve you. You will just have an other skill. That is all. It won' t hurt you.you will be able to speak in north africa, down to chad, half belgium, half switzerland, french guyanna, France, Quebec, 200 000 000persons. That is 7 times Canada. And you will be a complete citizen. Your SA will be total west through eastof your country.

Who said anything about not being willing to learn French? I can speak french, not as well as someone who grew up with it, but enough that I could survive. I have nothing against using another language as long as safety is not hanging in the balance, which in this case, I believe it is. If ICAO decided tomorrow that the international language of airborne communication should be Mandarin, well, I guess I should probably go learn mandarin. But the simple fact is, people in the air are expected to know English, or at least demonstrate a level of comprehension so as to allow conflict resolution. That's all!

It doesn't matter of who screwed who back in 1723 (totally arbitrary year, not of any significance), it's not a matter of national pride, and I don't give a flying f-ck about language pride. If one plane out of thousands cannot understand where traffic is, THAT is a safety issue, and should be rectified. With that being said, at the end of the day, we go home to our respective wives, girlfriends, mistresses, and speak whatever language we want. So I suggest we do that, get it out of your system, and meet me at the bar, there's beer waiting, you can say cheers however you want. G'day mate

[Johnny767]

The age-old debate, and one of my personal faves.

I still have a button from the 70's, "English is the International Language of Aviation." From when we lost the debate to the Quebecers...or was that the FLQ back then?

Air Canada is a French Airline, to the core. They have senior managers that, live and breath, the Franco Agenda.

We have Pilots at Air Canada that are NOT bilingual, their English is extremely limited.

However, here in the Socialist Republic of Canada, we have a double standard for Bilingual:

1. Anglo speaks perfect French,....C+.

2. Franco mutters a couple of word in English,...A+.

I have no axe to grind with the language, the culture, the province. I love Quebec as a province, I hate the political fallout from the xenophobic language police.

Two languages on the radio is dangerous, period.

I don't give Quebec ATC so much as a "bonjour," as (urban legend has it) it gets recorded as a French Conversation and subsequently ups their stats.

Nor do I allow French P/A's from the Flight Deck, my own little protest.

I fly to Japan and listen to JAL speaking English, not in Quebec.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I still have a button from the 70's, "English is the International Language of Aviation." From when we lost the debate to the Quebecers...or was that the FLQ back then?

Did you see that T-shirt with the Canadian Beaver choking the frog with " English is the international language of aviation " that was quite popular when they were stuffing the French agenda to the rest of Canada back then?