Speaking French on the radio

[Rebel]

The age-old debate, and one of my personal faves.

I still have a button from the 70's, "English is the International Language of Aviation." From when we lost the debate to the Quebecers...or was that the FLQ back then?

Air Canada is a French Airline, to the core. They have senior managers that, live and breath, the Franco Agenda.

We have Pilots at Air Canada that are NOT bilingual, their English is extremely limited.

However, here in the Socialist Republic of Canada, we have a double standard for Bilingual:

1. Anglo speaks perfect French,....C+.

2. Franco mutters a couple of word in English,...A+.

I have no axe to grind with the language, the culture, the province. I love Quebec as a province, I hate the political fallout from the xenophobic language police.

Two languages on the radio is dangerous, period.

I don't give Quebec ATC so much as a "bonjour," as (urban legend has it) it gets recorded as a French Conversation and subsequently ups their stats.

Nor do I allow French P/A's from the Flight Deck, my own little protest.

I fly to Japan and listen to JAL speaking English, not in Quebec.

I also have that button but in my IMHO with your attitude you’re part of the problem and not part of the solution. I’m considered a redneck from AB but restricting the language of PA’s is over the top and simply not professional..Smarten up or retire..

[...]

I also have that button but in my IMHO with your attitude you’re part of the problem and not part of the solution. I’m considered a redneck from AB but restricting the language of PA’s is over the top and simply not professional..Smarten up or retire..

Whoa!!! I didn't think you people out there existed. You have now given me hope that not all AB folk are prairie-dog shootin', sistah-humpin', colored hatin', but bible thumpin' folk.

I am impressed Mr/Mrs. Rebel. Way to represent your company and stating why we are ALL employed and whom we are working for....the customer.

[Ref Plus 10]

Did you see that T-shirt with the Canadian Beaver choking the frog with " English is the international language of aviation " that was quite popular when they were stuffing the French agenda to the rest of Canada back then?

Classic...I have one proudly framed on my wall

[petpad]

I have no axe to grind with the language, the culture, the province. I love Quebec as a province... but ...I don't give Quebec ATC so much as a "bonjour," as (urban legend has it) it gets recorded as a French Conversation and subsequently ups their stats.

Nor do I allow French P/A's from the Flight Deck, my own little protest.

I agree with Rebel. Your little "protest" is unbecoming of your grandiose position.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I guess you wouldn't wear the T-shirt with the beaver choking the frog then petpad?

[.......]

From when we lost the debate to the Quebecers...or was that the FLQ back then?

Talk about putting everything in the same basket...

I'd sure like to know who you are, so next time I hear your name on the PA (in English only), I'll make sure to deplane before they close the door... You must be a miserable chap!

[...]

Okay folks...I think Johnny767 got the point.

This thread is a target for charged emotions over the same issue with the same results and opinions.

So in my humble conclusion...it is what it is.

Can we move on and perhaps starting a new thread dedicated to getting member 182driver back to posting again...I miss him.

[petpad]

I guess you wouldn't wear the T-shirt with the beaver choking the frog then petpad?

You kidding me? I've had enough beavers around this frog's throat to send me to heaven and back... I love beavers, although I frequent only one since the day I said I do.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I love beavers, although I frequent only one since the day I said I do.

Are you worried she might read Avcanada?

[jetflightinstructor]

Hey!!! Are you guys getting excited? Do you feel better?

I have read some post recently about guys able to understand only one (maybe two...) language, and telling me how to deal with safety when it comes to SA, hehe... it really makes me laugh. When somebody will have done the same effort I have done to improve my SA and my safety concerning the radio communication, then he will be welcome to give me some advices.
Now guys, do what you want. Just fly safe ok? Don' t accept to fly everyday to an airport where you cannot understand 90% of the communications (it concerns almost all the domestic airport of the world), don' t fly blind (so to speak ).

You will be fine with the international airport, my comment is more for the expat pilots.

And every idea about how it should be, and what is a perfect world is quite nice, but forgive me if I don' t wait to do something to fly safe.

Cheers!!!

[Rebel]

Hey!!! Are you guys getting excited? Do you feel better?

I have read some post recently about guys able to understand only one (maybe two...) language, and telling me how to deal with safety when it comes to SA, hehe... it really makes me laugh. When somebody will have done the same effort I have done to improve my SA and my safety concerning the radio communication, then he will be welcome to give me some advices.
Now guys, do what you want. Just fly safe ok? Don' t accept to fly everyday to an airport where you cannot understand 90% of the communications (it concerns almost all the domestic airport of the world), don' t fly blind (so to speak ).

You will be fine with the international airport, my comment is more for the expat pilots.

And every idea about how it should be, and what is a perfect world is quite nice, but forgive me if I don' t wait to do something to fly safe.

Cheers!!!

Are you really an airline pilot or just some smart ass trying to stir that pot? You’re comments sound very amateurs to me.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Rebel I was wondering the same thing.

Having flown internationally since 1974 the language issue rates quite low on my what to worry about scale.

It is really quite simple, ATC will respond in English anywhere on earth. Then you do your best to stay in the loop if there is another language being spoken...if in doubt ask ATC.

[Rebel]

.

You’re right, keep it simple, if you don’t understand what’s been said, ask.

As you are well aware the power of Internet is awesome for the decimation of information but unfortunately one of the downsides is the attraction of nutcases

[Bush Man]

....

[scopiton]

Are you really an airline pilot or just some smart ass trying to stir that pot? You’re comments sound very amateurs to me.

what about the one who started all this ??

I think its about time, changes are made to prevent pilots (who are fluent in English) from speaking French on the radio. I can understand the private sector but when I fly into Montreal and airline pilots (Jazz and AC) particularly, are speaking French on the radio, something is wrong. I think most pilots are actively listening to ATC conversing with pilots and it helps to highten their situational awareness with respect to other airplanes. I understand that if two airplanes are in direct conflict, ATC will make the required transmissions to apply corrective action...but, this means more air time to get the point accross. Theres also the little things like being able to tell if theres an airplane fairly close behind you on approach, and you can correct the situation yourself without ATC instruction simply by increasing your speed momentarily and all of a sudden, its a non issue.

[jetflightinstructor]

jetflightinstructor wrote:
Hey!!! Are you guys getting excited? Do you feel better?

I have read some post recently about guys able to understand only one (maybe two...) language, and telling me how to deal with safety when it comes to SA, hehe... it really makes me laugh. When somebody will have done the same effort I have done to improve my SA and my safety concerning the radio communication, then he will be welcome to give me some advices.
Now guys, do what you want. Just fly safe ok? Don' t accept to fly everyday to an airport where you cannot understand 90% of the communications (it concerns almost all the domestic airport of the world), don' t fly blind (so to speak ).

You will be fine with the international airport, my comment is more for the expat pilots.

And every idea about how it should be, and what is a perfect world is quite nice, but forgive me if I don' t wait to do something to fly safe.

Cheers!!!

Are you really an airline pilot or just some smart ass trying to stir that pot? You’re comments sound very amateurs to me.

No, I am a PPL pilot why? I shouldn't write what I believe because of that?

Having an A/P, AFDS, FMC, A/T who retard automatically at 27 feet, a terrible hat that I never wear would make me a better pilot? And would entilted me to speak? What if I am a bush pilot then?

Ok, in addition to my PPL, I have others licences. And yes I fly an airliner. But I don' t see the point.

I just explain that we should do everything to increase our SA and our safety, and that learning and getting additional skills cannot hurt. That' s all.

Fly safe, good luck with your own SA.

Cheers.

[jetflightinstructor]

It is really quite simple, ATC will respond in English anywhere on earth. Then you do your best to stay in the loop if there is another language being spoken...if in doubt ask ATC.

CAT, please tell me you are joking. Did you know that in some domestic aiports in China, and also on some route, you have to speak chinese to have access? No apparently you didn' t know. Your statment is wrong.

Second point, yes a lot of airport are able to speak english, but if you fly everyday to an airport where 90 % of the communication are not understood by you, you should do something to improve your SA. This is part of your responsabilities to be safe.

Now the laziest reaction would be: why don' t they speak my language!!! The safest one would be: I have to understand what they are saying.

You are a chief pilot, you have to charter a flight to down south america in different local airport, you have a crew that speak spanish, will you send them if they are free? Additional skills cannot hurt.

[Carrier]

So pilots like . who regularly flew internationally and most airline pilots who fly to many countries are now supposed to learn and be proficient in perhaps thirty or more languages? It is not practical to expect ALL pilots to be fully functional in so many languages. That is why decades ago through the UN it was decided for SAFETY that ONE language - ENGLISH - would be the worldwide language of aviation with ALL pilots and controllers having the responsibility to understand and use it for aviation. Such a decision for the basic reason of safety was arrived at by the use of COMMON SENSE, something that seems to be noticeably lacking in some of the posters on here. It is frightening to think that such unsafe and uncaring individuals are allowed to fly or control aircraft and thereby threaten the lives of others as well as themselves. You will note that in the crash between a BA Trident and a local airliner mentioned above the local crew (and their pax) are no more alive than those of the Trident! I do not mind such people killing themselves but they should do it in a way that does not impact others. They have no right to put others at risk and for them to do so only indicates what inconsiderate people they are.

The RESPONSIBLE and SAFE reaction and aviation behaviour is to always USE ONLY ENGLISH AND CORRECT ICAO PHRASEOLOGY (not slang) and demand the removal from the air and ATC of those who use other languages and thereby deliberately compromise the safety of others (as well as themselves).

[wannabatp]

As you are well aware the power of Internet is awesome for the decimation of information but unfortunately one of the downsides is the attraction of nutcases

Amen to that brother, but are you sure you didn't mean dissemination? ie:the opening of a subject to widespread discussion and debate or the act of dispersing or diffusing something.

Rather than decimation ie: Form of capital punishment inflicted in the Roman army on units which had been guilty of insubordination, desertion during a battle, or mutiny. The guilty units were lined up and counted: every tenth man was taken, and the victims were beaten or stoned to death by troops from innocent units.

Sorry, couldn't let it pass, especially as this is a thread regarding clarity of communication.

If you actually meant to use the word the way you wrote it though, then Bravo. They both fit.

Cheers!

[Rebel]

As you are well aware the power of Internet is awesome for the decimation of information but unfortunately one of the downsides is the attraction of nutcases

Amen to that brother, but are you sure you didn't mean dissemination? ie:the opening of a subject to widespread discussion and debate or the act of dispersing or diffusing something.

Rather than decimation ie: Form of capital punishment inflicted in the Roman army on units which had been guilty of insubordination, desertion during a battle, or mutiny. The guilty units were lined up and counted: every tenth man was taken, and the victims were beaten or stoned to death by troops from innocent units.

Sorry, couldn't let it pass, especially as this is a thread regarding clarity of communication.

If you actually meant to use the word the way you wrote it though, then Bravo. They both fit.

Cheers!

'Sorry I meant to say "dissemination" so bite me or have you already...lol

[jetflightinstructor]

Carrier. I understand what you say.

And I take pride in using proper ICAO radio communication/phraseology.

However, believe me or not, I know hundreds of crew flying airbus and boeing not being able to speak one word of english. They fly domestic. Me too. I am not the only one. I fly in only one country, so I don' t have to learn 30 languages. I know 4 languages, including english, that are widespread enough to have a good, or excellent SA. I will probabely fly years (I hope) where I am, so I decided to learn the language for my safety.
I have friends who fly biz jet charter all around the world. I don' t think they will be able to learn all the languages on the earth . This kind of pilot are a special case. And I agree with you.
But they know and master more than one language. And I think this is an asset.

Initially the question was more for the canadians flying regularly to quebec. So I brought up my experience to explain that sometimes, the world is the world, ICAO or not I bet tomorrow morning 95% of the communication in Chicoutimi or Trois-Rivieres will be done in french. So if you plan on flying there for years, and you want personaly improve your SA, improve your knowledge and skills, then it would be a good idea to learn this language. What would be your advice for your own kids? Would you be desapointed if they are able to speak and understand several languages? Or would you be proud of them? That' s all, my meaning is that' s only positive to learn. Less time on avcanada (unless if this is to improve a language, or sharing knowledge) and more time learning something useful.

Now if one time you have an incident or accident because you fly everyday to an airport where you don' t understand the others traffic speaking, you still can blame the others pilot for not speaking english. But it won' t erase the fact that you have been involved in an incident, or accident that you could have avoided by learning the standard radio communication of the area you are flying in. You can learn it within 1 or 2 months. In years airport mentioned above will still speak in french. To be safe never ask what the others can do for you, but what can you do to improve your safety. You are the only one to be able to change something about your safety. If in 20 years everybody speaks the same language in the sky great! But it doesn' t depend on you. You can change yourself, you cannot change the world.

Do you think I would have been able to make everybody speak in english where I am flying? No. And I don' t want to wait to be safe.

I mean nothing else. That is very clear I think.

You are speaking about safety. I don' t believe that one single pilot posting in this thread want to be unsafe. We are all working on it. Increasing its own SA when flying in an other country is part of fighting against accident.

[jetflightinstructor]

You’re comments sound very amateurs to me.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... a&start=75

No I don' t see myself as an amateur.

I have flown in differents countries gliders, singles, twins, small jets, airliners (boeing).

My first flight is november 1990. Nothing to compare with CAT. But nothing close to an amateur.

Now I am not asking question about you. Because this is not the point. We are not speaking about somebody. But about an idea, a subject, a fact. Even If I were a 17 years old kid with a PPL, you would have to explain why you desagree based on facts. Not by trying to make somebody lose credibility.
Anyway I have been appreciated your news on airlines comment thread until now. Thanks to keep us informed.

Cheers.

[sugarfree]

Now the laziest reaction would be: why don' t they speak my language!!! The safest one would be: I have to understand what they are saying.

Somehow I tend to disagree.. In your example you spoke of China, now China with its numerous dialects, they also need a common language in order to communicate.

Your reference of learning a language, is not quite accurate. if you fly in Alma, Roberval the french is quite different then what you would hear in lets say Quebec City.
..
The reason for a common language and a common frame of reference is vital for communication. Just learning a few words here and there and assuming you can communicate in such a language is well quite dangerous and might skew your SA putting you at greater risk.

Yes it is always better to be able to communicate in many languages, BUT to do so in such a manner that is compliant and condusive to SA is another matter all together. While it is very understandable that many pilots will revert to their mother tonque while talking. I also believe that in the air, we should be safely communicating and NOT talking!!!

There is a purpose and a need to safely communicate while piloting an a/c, while idle chit chat can be initiated in any language.

Case in point please listen to some of the "communication" form ATC to certain pilots at ST Hubert, you will notice that even though most speak the "same" language, we clearly have failure to communicate and that is the bottom line!

SF./

[Hedley]

It's incredible how worked up people can get about the
least essential piece of equipment in an aircraft: the AM
VHF comm radio.

[jetflightinstructor]

It's incredible how worked up people can get about the
least essential piece of equipment in an aircraft: the AM
VHF comm radio.

Yes true... especially when flying aerobatics in visual meteorological condition!

Anyway thanks Hedley for bringing fresh air to this thread!!!