UWO's BMOS - Commercial Aviation Management

[ToFlyIsDivine]

do you really want to send the graduates of your program out into the aviation industry with the attitude that you have?

better than the attitude you have....don't discourage students to further their education...

This world would not have advanced if everyone held your attitude

its the new age now, if you don't even have a degree, its hard to remain competitive....

[deflux]

No one is discouraging anyone from getting a good education. We are simply saying that if it is your career goal to be a PILOT then this program is bogus. I know you keep yammering on about management and other things but thats not the point.

I am sure its good program for many other reasons but there are better and much much cheaper avenues to take for flight training.

[mcrit]

The students here are very academically geared towards excellence and are getting their ratings, relevant industry experience and a quality education at the same time.

Dude, flying is not an academic exercise and the industry is no where near complicated enough to merit a specialized degree. You do not get industry experience in school. You get that experience by living the industry (which most of the guys you are talking to here have done for quite some time). If you want quality flying training you really are better off heading to Confed or Sault (I've had the chance to do further training with a number of their grads and they all had solid PDM + good hands and feet). If you want to learn about managment do an HBA or MBA.

It’s alright if you can't afford quality education, I don't blame you.

Well, I'll give you this much; you guys are sure going to give Senaca a run for their money.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

On the side note, you may say this program is expensive, but it isn't that much more expensive than anywhere else.

http://training.torontoairways.com/ft-p ... arkham.php

Our costs of avg $11,000 year for flight training isn't outrageously expensive.

[etkuo]

well i am in the program so i maybe a little but bias, but seriously the degree is not just a backup plan
1) It gives you university experience. You get to know people, study but social at the same time, get involved in a unique environment
2) The degree shows to airlines that you can succeed in academics/social life/involvement.
3) Plus most importantly, the program is specially designed and you have courses in aviation/flying related matters such as human factors, air laws, airline/airport management. Some of these courses are taught by some very experienced people in the industry, (e.g. manager in the london international airport, air law lawyer, etc.) this does not only gives you really good networking and insight into the current industry but you also get to learn many things related to flyings.

remember, pilot is not just related to flying. and flying is not just the pilot's effort.

[Barney]

Its the "new age".
I guess all the people your spilling this crap onto don't know anything about this new age aviation.
Guess we all missed the memo on new age aviation in Canada. You convinced me now, who do I
give me hundred grand to.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

whats with all the negative vibe on this forum....frankly its very sad.....

[joe forty-sixpack]

The “negative vibe” comes from spending too much time in the industry. Just kidding, but only a little . Western’s program is decent. I’ve flown and worked with a couple (3 actually) of students and grads from the program. One is a student now, one works for Winair I believe and the other is instructing for the program. There are graduates out there in the industry and 2 out of the 3 I’ve known are decent people.

You get a negative response first of all by setting up a poll, which was worded in a fairly arrogant manner. “Have you applied to Western’s Commercial Aviation Management Yet?” implies that A) everyone is interested in applying and B) that everyone is pursuing aviation as a career via university. Point B was further illustrated by your choice #3, “deciding between Western, Waterloo and Seneca.” There are many more choices for students out there, even for those who feel the need for a degree.

University is an excellent asset, however you must remember that having a degree initially won’t do anything for you. It would look awesome on a resume with 2000 or so hours, some turbine and northern experience etc. It makes you look well rounded. With 250TT and a degree, or without the degree, your name will still be at the bottom of a pile of resumes. This is the reality of it. You will still need to work as hard as the rest of us “blue collar” slobs. Will it pay off if you keep at it? Of course it will, just like it will for anyone who does with or without a degree.

Keep in mind you are still a student there, you haven’t been out in the “real world” yet. With an uncertain economic future ahead for North America things in our industry are volatile and are subject to change at a moment’s notice. If you truly want to promote your program, why not talk about graduate placement in the field? Where are your graduates working now?

From what I’ve heard they’re mostly management types who work at HR for Jazz or other companies. In that respect the degree is a huge asset. I have met a couple who fly as I mentioned before but guess what they did when they finished? Bought a Twotter type rating and the other bought an instructor rating, just like people who never had the UWO experience.

In summary, it’s good to have pride in your school but don’t let it blind you. There’s lots of experience on these forums and a lot of the most successful pilots I’ve met don’t have post secondary. And they aren’t “new age” either, they started flying a few years before I did in 2003 so enough about that.

Cheers

[ToFlyIsDivine]

you make a very good point joe....thanks

[chipmunk]

...With 250TT and a degree, or without the degree, your name will still be at the bottom of a pile of resumes. This is the reality of it. You will still need to work as hard as the rest of us “blue collar” slobs. Will it pay off if you keep at it? Of course it will, just like it will for anyone who does with or without a degree...

One of the best posts I've read in a long time.
Every student should read this - this is what it is REALLY like.

[Stevo226]

Some of these courses are taught by some very experienced people in the industry, (e.g. manager in the london international airport, air law lawyer, etc.) .

***edited by Lil: NO NAMES*** a f***ing tool. he's gonna singlehandedly run this airport and all training facilities into the ground

[TopperHarley]

This is one debate that just never seems to go away.

To try and argue that education (any form of it) is "useless" is just ridiculous. Education is always a good thing. Higher forms of education may not be necessary to reach your dreams of becoming an airline pilot, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue something else on the side if it interests you.

Having said that, education itself is not good enough. You need the right balance between education and experience. The smaller air carriers may not give two shits if you went to university/college, but the bigger companies do regard it favourably. Im not saying they wont consider you if you dont have any, Im just pointing out that people who have a well-rounded background (education, experience, multiple languages, attitude, life stories, etc) may get their resumes noticed sooner than someone else.

It's true that there are pilots at all major airlines without college/university. But there are far more who do have some form of education. I have also met many awesome people in my lifetime who have nothing but highschool and Ive met idiots with Phds. This is where your attitude comes into play.

I went to the UWO program myself and I too would recommend it to anyone who is interested in studying business. If economics or accounting isnt your thing, then dont bother. Many students who didnt take the flying portion have nice jobs inside and outside of the aviation industry.

One big bonus about the colleges and universities is that it has far more opportunities for networking compared to just doing it on the side. And in some cases it's also far cheaper if you go to a program thats subsidized like Sault. Universities and colleges also offer a lot of scholarships. I received over $20,000 when I went to UWO over the 4 years, which just about covered my flight training. The program is a hell of a lot more expensive now then when I went through it though. The ROTP route through UWO is a good choice for people who dont want to rack up debt and who want to join the airforce though.

To be perfectly honest, I know that Id be exactly where I am today (jazz) had I not gone to university at all. In all the jobs Ive had I dont think my degree and all the scholarships I won was ever an issue. Whenever I applied to jobs up north I even sometimes left that stuff off the resume. However, down the road some doors may open up because of it. If not, I dont really care. I went to university and pursued a degree because it was something I wanted to do.

By far the BIGGEST advantage Western has over any other school is the women. Its known for having the best looking girls in the country. Unfortunately for me, it was always a "look, dont touch" policy.

[mcrit]

whats with all the negative vibe on this forum....frankly its very sad.....
whats with all the negative vibe on this forum....frankly its very sad.....

Dude, whenever you jump up in front of a group of pilots and start talking about why your school/company/aircraft type is the best, you are going to take fire.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

Dude, whenever you jump up in front of a group of pilots and start talking about why your school/company/aircraft type is the best, you are going to take fire.

ahahaha...i understand your point totally.....but I wasn't saying my program was the best....simply giving an alternate choice for the air enthusiasts....because.....truly not many people know about this program and I'd just like to increase its awareness in the community....

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I know some of the flight instructors in the program, and they go outside of London to local flight schools to do their training, especially for Multi-IFR because they can't stand the system they work for, and they won't be able to rent the aircraft from their own company when they're done their training.

One of the biggest issues I have as a former instructor at a small flight school with the Western program is the lack of real world practical experience. For example, the rule where you cannot do touch and go's on less than 3000' (or so) of runway is rediculous. I can't count the number of times that I have been on short final at one the airports surrounding London and had to overshoot because an Empire aircraft had to stop and backtrack on the runway because they aren't allowed to do touch and go's.. and these are on 2500' paved runways! What will happen when they go up north for that first job and have to land in minimums on a 1500' gravel or snow runway in something a lot bigger than a DA-20? In my opinion, if you can't do SEVERAL touch and go's in 2500', you're not being pushed hard enough. And this isn't just my opinion.. several of the instructors at Empire right now have told me as much, and wish they were elsewhere.

[C-GGGQ]

from what i saw if you train in ontario and DON'T have that no touch and go rule you are lucky.

[mcrit]

Divine, I see where you are coming from. I think it may have been the way you phrased your post that set some people off. I will certainly agree that an education is always good to have, (I will however stick to my guns when I say that a science/engineering/technical education is a better choice for a neophyte pilot), but a university degree or a college diploma does not make one a better pilot.
I think you may have unknowingly stepped on a sore spot that many in the industry have. There are certain institutions, (well, really just one to my mind), that have a reputation, (somewhat deserved), of producing prima donas with diplomas. These individuals, (note that I am not saying all graduates of this place), think that their ~200ish hours in the log book and a certicifate on the wall somehow make them superior pilots. These same individuals are not at all shy about letting the rest of us know that they think they are superior pilots. Just for the record, having done post graduate training with a number of these individuals, I can say that the ones I have seen are not superior pilots (not bad pilots, but not as good as they think).
This phenomenon is not unique to the aviation industry. Every industry that I have worked in had a "Charm School" that produced some graduates with a bit too much self esteem. On the bright side, a few years in the industry usually matured and developed these individuals into pretty good guys.

[Stevo226]

By far the BIGGEST advantage Western has over any other school is the women. Its known for having the best looking girls in the country. Unfortunately for me, it was always a "look, dont touch" policy.

What about Confed? or are you being picky on having more than two teeth in their heads?

[mcrit]

By far the BIGGEST advantage Western has over any other school is the women. Its known for having the best looking girls in the country.

Sorry dude, but I think Queen's has Western beat when it comes to women.

[AuxBatOn]

I suggest you get your facts straight and inform people with ALL the facts before you post something like that...

There's program called ROTP program, its offered by the Canadian Forces

The accuracy of your statements stop right about there...

There's program called ROTP program, its offered by the Canadian Forces and the Commercial Aviation Management program (CAM) at the University of Western Ontario is the only university aviation program sponsored by the Canadian Forces Regular Officers Training Plan. The CAM program will equip students with an extensive set of skills and prepare them for a career as a Pilot in the Canadian Forces.

It's offered ONLY by the Canadian Forces, not by UWO. The CAM won't prepare you any better than any other degrees for a career as a pilot in the CF.

So what does ROTP do?
In simple terms, it pays for EVERYTHING!
Yes you heard right, tuition, flying.....everything.

Sure it pays for everything. However, once you're done the degree, you owe 5 years of service. You fail flight training after your degree? You still HAVE (as in MUST) serve 5 years in an other trade (have you heard of infantry by any chance?)

If you do pass flight training and get your wings, you owe 7 years from the date you got your CF pilot wings (which is normally about 2-3 years after you're done the degree.

Advertising ROTP as being "free university" will get the wrong kind of person in the military. We do not want people that will go through the "Air Canada Training Plan". I know at least 3 people that tried that and it didn't quite work out for them. They got helicopters and re-mustered/released because they didn't get their multi-engine slot. We want people dedicated to the military.

By the way, I know of at least 1 person that failed Phase IIA in the very early stages... He was from the CAM in UWO... By the way, getting accepted into ROTP into the CAM program doesn't guarantee a pilot slot.

[joe forty-sixpack]

I didn’t mean to bash post secondary education at all with the last post. Western is an awesome university with a really good business program and a solid reputation. I would recommend the program if you have the aviation bug and are interested in business and/or management. It sure couldn’t hurt if one day you wanted to start a company, it also won’t look bad on a resume.

I just wanted to dispel the illusion some people have that you “must” have a degree to make it to the airlines. Experience is a first, and education is a close second. During times of high demand (e.g. the past year or so) a degree was extra. On the other hand I’m sure there are tons of pilots out there who got jobs simply because they had post secondary education.

Sometimes it’s a point system. Pilot A has 3000hrs, pilot B has 2500hrs therefore “A” scores say 5 points. A degree might add another 3 points. Whoever gets the most points gets the interview. Some airlines * cough * Air Canada * cough * will use filters to sort out the applications. So they might put in as a criteria “university degree” and that eliminates those without a degree. In that way a degree would make you competitive in that your resume would “pop up”. Keep in mind that the industry will eventually pick up and that criteria will eventually be dropped. The argument for post secondary then is who knows how long it might take for that to happen.

The military is really competitive so if you “plan” to go that route, be prepared for the worst but hope for the best. Hard work and good prep are mandatory.

Whichever path you choose make sure it’s one you are willing to put up with through the negatives (cost, time, etc) and also one that you’ll enjoy. The girls in London ARE hot too btw

[ToFlyIsDivine]

I suggest you get your facts straight and inform people with ALL the facts before you post something like that...

There's program called ROTP program, its offered by the Canadian Forces

The accuracy of your statements stop right about there...

There's program called ROTP program, its offered by the Canadian Forces and the Commercial Aviation Management program (CAM) at the University of Western Ontario is the only university aviation program sponsored by the Canadian Forces Regular Officers Training Plan. The CAM program will equip students with an extensive set of skills and prepare them for a career as a Pilot in the Canadian Forces.

It's offered ONLY by the Canadian Forces, not by UWO. The CAM won't prepare you any better than any other degrees for a career as a pilot in the CF.

So what does ROTP do?
In simple terms, it pays for EVERYTHING!
Yes you heard right, tuition, flying.....everything.

Sure it pays for everything. However, once you're done the degree, you owe 5 years of service. You fail flight training after your degree? You still HAVE (as in MUST) serve 5 years in an other trade (have you heard of infantry by any chance?)

If you do pass flight training and get your wings, you owe 7 years from the date you got your CF pilot wings (which is normally about 2-3 years after you're done the degree.

Advertising ROTP as being "free university" will get the wrong kind of person in the military. We do not want people that will go through the "Air Canada Training Plan". I know at least 3 people that tried that and it didn't quite work out for them. They got helicopters and re-mustered/released because they didn't get their multi-engine slot. We want people dedicated to the military.

By the way, I know of at least 1 person that failed Phase IIA in the very early stages... He was from the CAM in UWO... By the way, getting accepted into ROTP into the CAM program doesn't guarantee a pilot slot.

hahahaha.....i never said it guarantees a pilot slot, also i did say it gives you a guarenteed job,
ALSO the paragraph you quoted "There's program called ROTP program, its offered by the Canadian Forces and the Commercial Aviation Management program (CAM) at the University of Western Ontario is the only university aviation program sponsored by the Canadian Forces Regular Officers Training Plan. The CAM program will equip students with an extensive set of skills and prepare them for a career as a Pilot in the Canadian Forces." is taken directly from the CF Entry Plans Website.

[AuxBatOn]

hahahaha.....i never said it guarantees a pilot slot, also i did say it gives you a guarenteed job,

Well you sure make it sounds like that dude.

ALSO the paragraph you quoted "There's program called ROTP program, its offered by the Canadian Forces and the Commercial Aviation Management program (CAM) at the University of Western Ontario is the only university aviation program sponsored by the Canadian Forces Regular Officers Training Plan. The CAM program will equip students with an extensive set of skills and prepare them for a career as a Pilot in the Canadian Forces." is taken directly from the CF Entry Plans Website.

Allright I found it. However, don't steal other people/organization stuff and pretend it's yours. Provide references when you quote an other website. You should be learning that in university shouldn't you?

Personally, I think that quote is total bullcrap. I've been through CF pilot training and I did not find that any previous flying experience would prepare you for that (I did have PFE). It's totally different than what any school would do and the learning curve is much steeper. Heck, a 2000 hrs ATPL, CRJ pilot failed when I was there... Plus, the PFT by-pass is offered to every CPL out there...

[ToFlyIsDivine]

go complain to CF about that....not me

[ToFlyIsDivine]

Allright I found it. However, don't steal other people/organization stuff and pretend it's yours. Provide references when you quote an other website. You should be learning that in university shouldn't you?

i would have thought anyone with a normal level of common sense could have known that I did not pull this stuff from thin air....