Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

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scouty-dog
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by scouty-dog »

SaskStyle wrote:And as far as finding a replacement for the CP with "in-house talent...."

Finding a replacement was never the issue...

The issue was/is why did he choose to resign from that position?

He is well respected within the aviation community and a very experienced pilot...his opinion holds some weight...the timing of his decision speaks volumes about the situation. (a point lost on some, like my pal tubthumper...)

Whoever takes his place has a big seat to fill and will have his hands full...

I also have the most respect for the CP. An ATR to him is a small aircraft, with most of his hours on big iron.
I am sorry for his situation, and realize it wasn't an easy decision. He ushered in a new aircraft to a growing company that was going thru growing pains. (Big growing pains)

That should speak volumes also.
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officejet
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by officejet »

Roper wrote:Interesting reading throughout the thread. One thing that seems to be primarily consistent is the on-line support that the pilots seem to be receiving from apparently quite experienced pilots. Lots likely from former co-workers who have had the experience of working with one or more of them and who seem to have quite a bit of respect for. Otherwise, why such interest? Perhaps the fence sitters (or for that matter any of us) could ask ourselves ..... if found in the same situation, would we be able to garner the same reaction and support? If not, then what can be done to earn that amount of respect from our fellow co-workers.
Good point Roper.

I wonder if any of those fence sitters are actually asking themselves that question. Or do they really care.

There seems to be a lot of handwringing going on and lots of tsk tsk this is a bad situation talk. But no one really cares.

F**k it right? It'll go away eventually. what did that one guy say? This will forever be an ugly scar on the face of management? WTF does that mean. And why the f**K do you care about the scars on managements face? What about your lack of balls to stand up to your precious management in support of those that did? That's a scar that all you that stand idly by will have to think about for the rest of your careers.

You guys/gals there already have someone that's risked their reputation and put his career in jeapordy to better things for...guess what...you sad ass biatches that say management has regrets and westwind is a great company and what about everyone else....boo f'n hoo.

All you have to do is sign the dotted line. hard work is already done. But then again, what do you know about hard work. Keep on truckin with your sights set on the big iron at the end of the rainbow right? AC is unionized if you havent done your research. and WestJet makes efforts to avoid that road by listening to their employees. You'll end up there eventually and be able to look back at your time at westwind and this whole scenario and it'll all be a bad dream.

Or guess what. Maybe you'll be like the majority of those that interview and don't get on. Maybe your dreams will become reality and you'll realize that westwind is where you're going to be because all of a sudden there's more responsibility then what you have in front of you right now. ie a family. so now all of a sudden those issues that the 705 group is currently fighting for...guess what hombre...they're gonna be your issues.

but whatever right?

unbelievable that you have those trying to make things better...holding your hand through it all...and y'all still are too cowardly to step up and are so misguided that you actually come on here and rant that westwind is the greatest place.

my 2 cents

peace
officejet
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Trippin @350
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Trippin @350 »

officejet it sounds like u've been drinkin the same rum as i had in the past.

CHEERS!


Can someone post details regarding issues that would be detailed in a contract negotiated within the new union structure at WW. Lets create some constructive dialogue. This tread is turning into a tennis game, back and forth.
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by HO Driver »

Kick ass post officejet!! Rum or not, you hit the nail right on the head!! You WWA fence sitters have to grab a set of balls and step up to the plate and support your brothers.
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Cat Driver »

You WWA fence sitters have to grab a set of balls and step up to the plate and support your brothers.
I'm having difficulty understanding the above.

To be supportive of your brothers you have to hold their balls? :?
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ifr
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by ifr »

scouty-dog wrote:I am quite curious....why do people think this is a big deal?

#1 Pilots come and go.

I know I have done it.
I think the point is that these pilots' came and didn't want to go. They were let go without any reason - no downsizing, seasonal, or broken CARS issues. If you don't think this is a big deal, then you are part of the problem. There is presently a big push for a national pilot's professional association. I think you should ask yourself if you could be a member of good standing or if you didn't quite qualify.

It does not matter what job - whether working at Tim Horton's or as the head of a neurosurgery department - everyone has a right to know why they are being dismissed. To become common practice and have no outcry would wreck havoc throughout democracy. Check back in history as to why unions were formed in the first place.
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ifr
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by ifr »

Cat Driver wrote:
You WWA fence sitters have to grab a set of balls and step up to the plate and support your brothers.
I'm having difficulty understanding the above.

To be supportive of your brothers you have to hold their balls? :?

I think better that than trying to cut them off!
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Cat Driver »

I think better that than trying to cut them off!

How true, but if one of my co-workers was holding my balls it would have to be a woman. :smt040
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Roper
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Roper »

Cat Driver wrote:
I think better that than trying to cut them off!

How true, but if one of my co-workers was holding my balls it would have to be a woman. :smt040

I wouldn't be surprised if they were more supportive of the changes just by virtue of the fact of some of the biased perceptions about being a female in a male-dominated profession. So, in their case, having no balls just might be a good thing.

And, Cat Driver, as your signature quote so rightly states "Ignorance is just a lack of personal ambition; stupidity is congenital."
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Cat Driver »

Roper I responded to the reference to the balls comment because I find it abhorrent in this day and age that any profession or industry has not evolved to the point where they do not recognize that ones sex has no bearing on how one does a given job.

Maybe they should close their eyes and pretend they are a female flying for a living and think how they would feel being seen as somehow inferior because they don't have balls.

Jeses Christ there I go again getting my self deeper and deeper into a position I can't win in. :rolleyes:
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Samaritan
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Samaritan »

Trippin @350 wrote:officejet it sounds like u've been drinkin the same rum as i had in the past.

CHEERS!


Can someone post details regarding issues that would be detailed in a contract negotiated within the new union structure at WW. Lets create some constructive dialogue. This tread is turning into a tennis game, back and forth.
I would have to think from my experience there that the major issue would be just the simple existence of a contract at all instead of a loose set of "working conditions" which can be changed at any moment to suit managements needs at that time without any feedback from the crews or any concessions when the lifestyle is damaged by one of these changes. As you can imagine this sort of dynamic ever changing job description has repercussions which reach right into the CARS i.e. duty days and splitting or extending etc., the intention and availability of on call crews, number of guaranteed days off per month (and having them actually be guaranteed), overtime pay (although word on the street is that this was magically fixed all of a sudden, I wonder why?), and an SMS program that actually lives up to what it is supposed to achieve (whereby you can actually speak about concerns honestly, without it becoming a financial decision).

Outside of these things, off the top of my head, I can only imagine that pay for the less experienced or more junior pilots would be a fairly major issue as everyone is aware the cost of living in Saskatchewan isn't what it once was.

Anyone who knows more or thinks there are more pressing issues please add as you see fit.
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officejet
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by officejet »

Cat Driver wrote:Roper I responded to the reference to the balls comment because I find it abhorrent in this day and age that any profession or industry has not evolved to the point where they do not recognize that ones sex has no bearing on how one does a given job.

Maybe they should close their eyes and pretend they are a female flying for a living and think how they would feel being seen as somehow inferior because they don't have balls.

Jeses Christ there I go again getting my self deeper and deeper into a position I can't win in. :rolleyes:
Since when did the females start feeling inferior due to a lack of balls? Me, admittedly being a bit of a dog, always thought they had an upper hand because...well...they could do the same thing i could and they looked better doing it...

(edited because sometimes i get carried away.)

and it was just an expression for petes sake. thats an expression too. i know pete and i don't think he'd appreciate me using his name. so i apologize in advance for that one.

but i do apologize if i offended anyone with the "abhorrent" expression. i thought we were on an adults forum were expressions would be recognized as just getting a point across.

but lets keep this thread focused...
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ifr
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by ifr »

scouty-dog wrote:I am quite curious....why do people think this is a big deal?

#1 Pilots come and go. (last time I checked)
#2 Lots of in-house talent to fill 705 CP position.
#3 Occasionally, employees don't agree with management practices.
I am sorry that these pilot's families may have to move their families elsewhere for work. That isn't easy, but sometimes it must be done.

I know I have done it.
Let's try another analogy. What if your son/daughter is bullied at school ... and we know there are lots of those ... and the older students that stood up to the bullies were the ones expelled from school. Then, the teacher, resigns because he/she doesn't believe in the principal's/management's decision. Do you tell your child that:
#1. Students come and go and get used to being bullied.
#2. There are lots of other teachers to fill that position.
#3. Occasionally students/teacher don't agree with a principal's position.

So, suck it up, kid. Get used to it. Move if you have to.

Or... do you teach your child to stand up for themselves and for others that can't stand up for themselves. Maybe think about what life lesson you want your child to learn.

Can you stand up for yourself and others or do you feel the only alternative is to keep getting a sore back from bending over and letting someone else make your decisions on your life?
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scouty-dog
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by scouty-dog »

ifr wrote:
scouty-dog wrote:I am quite curious....why do people think this is a big deal?

#1 Pilots come and go. (last time I checked)
#2 Lots of in-house talent to fill 705 CP position.
#3 Occasionally, employees don't agree with management practices.
I am sorry that these pilot's families may have to move their families elsewhere for work. That isn't easy, but sometimes it must be done.

I know I have done it.
Let's try another analogy. What if your son/daughter is bullied at school ... and we know there are lots of those ... and the older students that stood up to the bullies were the ones expelled from school. Then, the teacher, resigns because he/she doesn't believe in the principal's/management's decision. Do you tell your child that:
#1. Students come and go and get used to being bullied.
#2. There are lots of other teachers to fill that position.
#3. Occasionally students/teacher don't agree with a principal's position.

So, suck it up, kid. Get used to it. Move if you have to.

Or... do you teach your child to stand up for themselves and for others that can't stand up for themselves. Maybe think about what life lesson you want your child to learn.

Can you stand up for yourself and others or do you feel the only alternative is to keep getting a sore back from bending over and letting someone else make your decisions on your life?

wow :shock:
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Doc
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Doc »

One of the finest gentlemen I know of works for them. Can somebody "in the Know" send me a PM? Thanks....don't want to even use initials here....thanks.
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flyinthebug
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by flyinthebug »

is WM the CP we are discussing? Doc is that who u were thinking too?

I have very little current knowledge of WWA but even 4 years ago they were the envy of all sask air services and what many pilots and engineers aspired to? Im saddened to hear that these problems have hit WWA since their expansion.

I used to be on the ramp in YXE 4 times a week minimum and ALL the pilots at WWA were happy and content and flying very well maintained equipment. It really is a shame and if their CP is still the same gentleman that I knew there 5 years ago, it would be a huge blow to lose a man with so much varied experience and ability. Not to mention hes a hell of a decent guy!

Good luck to WWA and all its team members.
Fly safe all,
Cheers
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Trippin @350
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Trippin @350 »

well said IFR. sometimes when you dummy it down in such an analogy it just makes so much sense.

to reiterate a previous post. most pilots are looking for their retirement job at an airline. one that has grassroots who's members worked together for positive change. now by riding on their coat tails, it is the rest of us that want to enjoy the benefits, lifestyle, etc., that these gentlemen created.

i am still just shocked as shit that there is no comradery on this issue. for those that have chosen WW as your retirement job, please accept sincere sympathy as i understand what it is like trying to make changes for the better with zero support.
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Carrier »

Quote: “...most pilots are looking for their retirement job at an airline...”

Not so! Since the “white collar” pilot jobs (airline and corporate) make up only 15% of the total Canadian professional pilot market it is obvious that most professional pilots will not become airline pilots. Apart from this there are many pilots who entered the occupation with the goal of eventually finding a decent permanent non-airline pilot job. These jobs are few and far between because of the almost antagonistic attitude of smaller operators towards pilots. Such operators have a high turnover of pilots because they are useful only as stepping stones- while holding one’s nose.

A lucky few pilots find permanent jobs with the very few decent float operators, fire fighting or the few decent charter and medevac operators. The rest have to put up with poor pay, endless BS, operators who ignore the terms and conditions of employment, safety lapses and Chief Pilots who are either inexperienced and got the job because nobody else was qualified or who are bitter and twisted because they failed to make it to the airlines and have had to settle for something that they consider to be less desirable.

These smaller operators could obtain staff stability and cut their costs if they set out to attract AND RETAIN older, more mature and responsible pilots. Their recruiting and training costs would drop and so would their operating costs because they would have people who were there for the long term and who looked after the equipment. There are many such pilots available. Pay them properly and treat them properly instead of having the attitude that pilots are a dime a dozen and can be treated with contempt.

WW’s ATR operation used to have the reputation of being one such permanent job situation. There used to be low turnover because people liked to stay. That seems to have changed and the WW reputation has been well and truly trashed by recent events exposed in this thread. It will take a long time to recover, if at all. It is not the fault of the CPs. Both WM (703/4) and GB (705) have excellent reputations both as managers and as people. One has to sympathise with them!
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Doc »

[quote="Carrier"]Quote:

"These smaller operators could obtain staff stability and cut their costs if they set out to attract AND RETAIN older, more mature and responsible pilots. Their recruiting and training costs would drop and so would their operating costs because they would have people who were there for the long term and who looked after the equipment. There are many such pilots available. Pay them properly and treat them properly instead of having the attitude that pilots are a dime a dozen and can be treated with contempt."

Why can't operations figure this out? It would solve the "revolving door" that nobody can afford! My company is doing just this. All of our guys are really happy.....and as a result, sticking around. We're so old, nobody else would want us anyway!
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Trippin @350
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Trippin @350 »

AMEN!
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SaskStyle
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by SaskStyle »

Carrier wrote:WW’s ATR operation used to have the reputation of being one such permanent job situation. There used to be low turnover because people liked to stay.
flyinthebug wrote:I have very little current knowledge of WWA but even 4 years ago they were the envy of all sask air services and what many pilots and engineers aspired to? Im saddened to hear that these problems have hit WWA since their expansion.
I used to be on the ramp in YXE 4 times a week minimum and ALL the pilots at WWA were happy and content and flying very well maintained equipment.
Responsibility and accountability. As pilots we are aware of the seriousness of those concepts as they apply to us when operating.

But what about responsibility and accountability from management? Besides the long arm of Transport Canada (and yes there's a bit of sarcasm), they only have to answer to their shareholders (who they meet with, what, every 6 months for an hour? I don't really know...) and their employees.

There is an acknowledgement that WW had a lot of respect from its employees and those in the industry because they made an effort to maintain working conditions above the minimum requirements that TC issues. There is a responsibility to address those issues if such conditions start to slide. The responsibility lies with everyone outside of WW to voice their disapproval, for if those that set the standard to which we all compared our current situation to starts to lower that same bar, where does it stop? Well it stops at the legal requirements set by TC. Lifestyle is not written into those requirements though.

Those at westwind carry more on their shoulders though. They have a responsibility to not only continue safe operations, but to think about and try to realize the reason why this thread is getting so much attention.

I think it's because, like I said above, if the company to who everyone said was the place to be...is all of a sudden sounding like everyplace else...that's a low day in Canadian aviation. And it's up to those there to decide what to do about it.
Samaritan wrote:I would have to think from my experience there that the major issue would be just the simple existence of a contract at all instead of a loose set of "working conditions" which can be changed at any moment to suit managements needs at that time without any feedback from the crews or any concessions when the lifestyle is damaged by one of these changes. As you can imagine this sort of dynamic ever changing job description has repercussions which reach right into the CARS i.e. duty days and splitting or extending etc., the intention and availability of on call crews, number of guaranteed days off per month (and having them actually be guaranteed), overtime pay (although word on the street is that this was magically fixed all of a sudden, I wonder why?), and an SMS program that actually lives up to what it is supposed to achieve (whereby you can actually speak about concerns honestly, without it becoming a financial decision).

Outside of these things, off the top of my head, I can only imagine that pay for the less experienced or more junior pilots would be a fairly major issue as everyone is aware the cost of living in Saskatchewan isn't what it once was.

Anyone who knows more or thinks there are more pressing issues please add as you see fit.
That's a good start...anyone at WW have anything to add?
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Liberator
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Liberator »

Found on the West Wind Aviation Website:


Awards


West Wind is well recognized by our customers, peers and regulators for our reliability, quality,
on-time performance, safety and commitment to service.



West Wind Aviation - proud recipient of:


2008 - Awarded ABEX Business Leader of the Year

2008 - Canada's 50 Best Managed Companies

2008 - Receives Canadian Business Aviation Association (CBAA) award of merit

2008 - NSBA Award - Job Creation

2007 - Better Business Bureau Torch Award Outstanding Ethics and Integrity in Business
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Trippin @350
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Trippin @350 »

JetBlue pilots seek to unionize. The JetBlue Pilots Assn. filed a petition with the US National Mediation Board this week seeking to become the bargaining agent for the carrier's nearly 2,000 pilots. JBPA leaders said they want formal recognition in order to provide career protection for pilots that will help "redefine pilot-labor relations in our industry." The in-house body would be not affiliated with a national union. "As our airline matures, we want to ensure that the career expectations of our pilots will remain intact regardless of organizational changes," a JBPA statement said. "We welcome the opportunity to communicate concerns through a voice that is supported by the lawful process of the Railway Labor Act."

sounds like the boys to the south figured it out.
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by Roper »

Liberator wrote:Found on the West Wind Aviation Website:


Awards


West Wind is well recognized by our customers, peers and regulators for our reliability, quality,
on-time performance, safety and commitment to service.



West Wind Aviation - proud recipient of:


2008 - Awarded ABEX Business Leader of the Year

2008 - Canada's 50 Best Managed Companies

2008 - Receives Canadian Business Aviation Association (CBAA) award of merit

2008 - NSBA Award - Job Creation

2007 - Better Business Bureau Torch Award Outstanding Ethics and Integrity in Business
I see a lot of these have to do with the term 'business' and that covers quite a spectrum. Sometimes companies/management begin to forget who helped them achieve those awards ... as they become too busy patting themselves on the back. In this case instead of looking toward the future, now employees are watching their backs. I don't get the sense that they would necessarily agree with the awards as their morale doesn't seem to be at an all-time high for (I feel) obvious reasons. I guess that's why labour laws were developed and unions made in-roads, as there needed to be some recourse for the employee.

Liberator, I still seem to question how one qualifies for Business Leader of the Year Award when long-term, well-qualified employees are let go - employees who incidentally helped build that business over the past decade - yes, decade. (Maybe those questions weren't on the application form??) If they were so unqualified, why were they ever hired in the first place, kept over a decade, and promoted over time? The 'Outstanding Ethics and Integrity in Business' seems to be on shakey ground with that one, too. However, the 'Job Creation" could be a winner as when they let some pilots go .... then they now can promote/hire more to take their place!

Quite frankly, any person with 'Business Leader of the Year' with that 'ethics and integrity' attached should be able to correct a wrong done and therefore would earn insurmountable respect by righting a wrong done. That's what a real leader would do. Then, maybe their employees might begin to agree that those awards would be earned. Even Westjet admitted their spy debacle on Air Canada, and tried to make a wrong right, admitting they weren't perfect ... and earned extra respect by doing so.

I guess we'll see what awards are won in 2009. Maybe some of you can come up with some more current and relevant ones!
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Re: Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

Post by ifr »

Liberator wrote:Found on the West Wind Aviation Website:


Awards


West Wind is well recognized by our customers, peers and regulators for our reliability, quality,
on-time performance, safety and commitment to service.



West Wind Aviation - proud recipient of:


2008 - Awarded ABEX Business Leader of the Year

2008 - Canada's 50 Best Managed Companies

2008 - Receives Canadian Business Aviation Association (CBAA) award of merit

2008 - NSBA Award - Job Creation

2007 - Better Business Bureau Torch Award Outstanding Ethics and Integrity in Business

Liberator, that's a marketing site for the company. Do you think they're going to
write:

2008 - 'Let go previously valued employees who, do their detriment, tried to improve
working conditions' Business Award

2008 - Employee Morale at an All Time Low Award

Now... Come Fly with Us
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