Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

['effin hippie]

Canadian airline companies (including WestWind) are implementing legaly sketchy training bonds on their pilots to retain their staff.

Training bonds are not 'Legally Sketchy'. Unethical, maybe. Totally shitty, for sure. Search up any recent thread on the issue, and you will find that people more knowledgeable and thorough than myself have referenced a growing body of legal precedent upholding the legality of training bonds, even to the extreme of verbal contracts.

I'm not trying to be a dick, here, it's just that there's a recurrent idea floating around these boards that bonds are just to intimidate, and have limited legal teeth. That is NOT true. It is a FACT that if you ditch on a bond for anything other than VERY clearly documented safety concerns, the counter-party to your bond will win if they take you to court, and you will be on the hook for the bond and most likely their legal costs. The 'under duress' argument has tried and failed too.

Sorry to go off topic, it would seem my internet addiction has grown alarmingly...

ef

[Roper]

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if this is the first time that pilots at this company were let go for little or no reason. - except perhaps trying to improve work conditions. Going back over the last decade or so, perhaps there are those 'out there' that know - either secondhand or, unfortunately, first hand.

If so, were the circumstances similar? Did they leave quietly and with their tails between their legs and with no coworker support - other than sympathy and relief it wasn't them? Did the company with the 'ethics and integrity award' sewer them or phone to blacklist them at other companies that they might have sought employment in?

If there is a history here, no matter how slight, then present employees should be very aware of this as history often has a pattern of repeating itself - especially if it was a successful process previously!

[Liberator]

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if this is the first time that pilots at this company were let go for little or no reason. - except perhaps trying to improve work conditions. Going back over the last decade or so, perhaps there are those 'out there' that know - either secondhand or, unfortunately, first hand.

If so, were the circumstances similar? Did they leave quietly and with their tails between their legs and with no coworker support - other than sympathy and relief it wasn't them? Did the company with the 'ethics and integrity award' sewer them or phone to blacklist them at other companies that they might have sought employment in?

If there is a history here, no matter how slight, then present employees should be very aware of this as history often has a pattern of repeating itself - especially if it was a successful process previously!

Roper, yes I believe that others have definitely been let go in the past.

Others will continue to be let go...

Many great empires have been built through fear.

[SaskStyle]

Canadian airline companies (including WestWind) are implementing legaly sketchy training bonds on their pilots to retain their staff.

Training bonds are not 'Legally Sketchy'. Unethical, maybe. Totally shitty, for sure. Search up any recent thread on the issue, and you will find that people more knowledgeable and thorough than myself have referenced a growing body of legal precedent upholding the legality of training bonds, even to the extreme of verbal contracts.

I'm not trying to be a dick, here, it's just that there's a recurrent idea floating around these boards that bonds are just to intimidate, and have limited legal teeth. That is NOT true. It is a FACT that if you ditch on a bond for anything other than VERY clearly documented safety concerns, the counter-party to your bond will win if they take you to court, and you will be on the hook for the bond and most likely their legal costs. The 'under duress' argument has tried and failed too.

Sorry to go off topic, it would seem my internet addiction has grown alarmingly...

ef

That's interesting. I didn't know they carried such weight in the courts....

It's not really that far off topic with regards to conditions at West Wind.

I've heard rumours, and maybe someone there can correct me, but I have heard rumours of West Wind approching pilots with the training bond after training was done, and saying now you have to agree to sign to this amount....

From the management side...they have bonds on every one of their aircraft, so you should have known that there was one. It was an oversight that we didn't charge you before.

From the pilot side....

I can't come up with a solid defence....

It just sounds all together sketchy and halfassed thrown together and doesn't sit right.

[Roper]

How is mtce making out at this company? Any one know if they are having the same kind of issues?

[Trippin @350]

It is nice to have the structure, support, and expertise from a union. However, given the events and the response from the WW pilot group to those events, it is clear that there is no more unity at WW. Company expansion will do that. Until all of you WW guys/gals stick together (shit the whole industry has to stick together) there is no hope for you (or any of us). A union can only help those who come together to form one voice demanding positive change.

Training bonds stick in court. So if you want the training, type rating, or flight experience on your resume and have signed a bond but can't meet your end of the agreement, pay the $$. You wanted the upgrade in the first place. Don't fcuk shit for the rest of us.

Remember we work in a large industry but exist in a small fraternity. If we can't support each other from the beginning we are lost and have no chance as hell in our futures.

I just read the latest issue of Airliner and Aviation Weekly & Space Tech. What stood out after both those reads is the need for contract pilots worldwide. Who cares right? As I read "Airliner" you get the business aspect to this arrangement. Ok, if we are starting an international airline in some third world country, we would require experienced pilots to get it started. The truth to the story is that companies enjoy this arrangement, contracts renewable every three years with no pension requirements.. I can list off companies but that is a waste of bandwidth.

What I am afraid of is that these airlines compete in the same market as the rest. Eventually all airlines will want to reduce costs by using contract pilots. Airlines will become shell companies that don't own buildings, airplanes, parts, pilots, mechanics, FAs, etc. This will be a real mess.

We spend $60k to get pilot licence, load bags in yellowknife for a year, fly clapped out navjo for $20k/yr, all in attempt to get that dream job. It is truly the best job on the planet. Where else can you press one button and HOT chics bring you coffee? Anyhow back to the point. These sacrifices will be pointless because our dream jobs may exist on a contract basis with no retirement plan or benefits. Worse yet, is the race to the bottom. Will pilots undercut others by flying for less? Nahhhhhhhhhhhh

Since Canadian Aviation always follows American Aviation, the day this occurs in the USA we better be united as a pilot group.

[GARRETT]

Trippin', yet another kick-ass, tell it like it is post! Nice!!

[Roper]

Have things been improving here? Is there truth that management insisted on being in on the pilots' 'association' meeting? Doesn't sound too good. Obviously those who are so busy looking after their own backs and can not back the pilots who were let go - while working to help improve conditions for everyone - likely won't speak out individually knowing the recent history there? Does certainly reflect on why we can't seem to improve our professional working conditions across Canada, as well as, worldwide.

[SaskStyle]

Just thought I'd bring this thread back to the top....

I keep checking in on this forum and haven't seen any updates for a long while now....

I guess no news is generally good news...

Have working conditions picked up back to acceptable standards?

[ever]

I hear the boys got their jobs back, can anybody in the know confirm this?

[Trippin @350]

is this true? i wonder who ends up paying the legal bill?

[MUSKEG]

I wonder if the court also appointed an observer to monitor the reception these guys get upon their return. I wonder exactly how long it will be before the working conditions are so crappy for them that they leave on their own. Big business tends to operate along those lines. My compliments on their tenacity.

[Vindicator]

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/Business/ ... story.html

Three fired pilots to return to work


By Jeanette Stewart, The StarPhoenixFebruary 19, 2009

Three pilots who were fired for organizing a union drive at an award-winning Saskatchewan business plan to return to work on Monday.

The Canada Industrial Relations Board has ordered the reinstatement of three pilots who were terminated on the same day they conducted the first union meeting at Saskatoon-based airline service West Wind Aviation.

"They were good employees, and all they wanted to do was bring a union into their workplace," said Wally Ewanicke, the national representative for the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada. "We live in a country where the codes allow you to freely organize your workplace."

A unanimous ruling after a hearing Wednesday said the board determined the pilots were fired for union activity. Originally the hearing was scheduled for three days in Saskatoon, but lasted just one day.

The pilots organized a meeting last fall to become certified as unionized employees under federal code. The same day of the meeting last October, the employer sent a letter to the pilots' homes telling them they were terminated, Ewanicke said.

The company has been ordered to reinstate the employees with full seniority, back pay and benefits.

"Everybody is very happy that they have been vindicated through the process," Ewanicke said.

Until the hearing took place, the three pilots had tried to find work elsewhere while going through the process of filing the complaint.

"With the economy it's not easy," Ewanicke said. "For each plane that you fly, you have to be certified on that plane, which costs thousands and thousands of dollars. You have to work your way up. There's a huge training cost."

Several calls to management at West Wind Aviation were not returned Wednesday.

West Wind Aviation was named one of Canada's top 50 best managed companies by the Better Business Bureau of Canada in 2007, an award honouring excellence in Canadian-owned and managed companies with revenues of more than $10 million.

In 2008, West Wind received the business leader of the year award at the annual Achievement in Business Excellence awards of Saskatchewan. In 2007, West Wind was given the business of the year award at the Saskatoon Achievement in Business Excellence Awards, and was a finalist in the Better Business Bureau of Saskatchewan's 2007 Torch awards.

The CEP union represents three major groups including communication, energy and pulp and paper. This was a first attempt at unionizing members of the aviation industry through the CEP.

jstewart@sp.canwest.com