I had a job like this one summer. 5 days off in 150 days. Twelve hour days the norm. Not smart. Not safe.
Why does Transport and the FAA allow commercial float operators to get away with this one?
You take your day off when the weather is unflyable.
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stallnfall
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water wings
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hey...dunno what happenned, i had already posted a reply here but it must have been eaten...here i go..take 2
Float companies (and non - floats) will get away with stuff as long as pilots let them. First of all, no matter how isolated you are, every body has potential of being audited, and it's your license # in the logbook!!!!
As far as days off....take the ones that keep you legal, and hopefully that will keep you safe...if not, know your limits of fatigue and weather etc...if you're tired and you spin one in, the operator looses a plane, you get a piece in the paper and 15 minutes of fame.
Maybe iv'e been lucky working for places that although small, had a program set up and daily flight sheets to stay within the 703 happy place.
5 days for the entire season? .... If you're letting the Boss "drop the pen" for a whole season, that's your own problem. Don't whine about having no days off, know your CARs to keep legal, and listen to your "little voice" to keep yourself safe. PIC!!!!
remember what the C stands for? !!!
Float companies (and non - floats) will get away with stuff as long as pilots let them. First of all, no matter how isolated you are, every body has potential of being audited, and it's your license # in the logbook!!!!
As far as days off....take the ones that keep you legal, and hopefully that will keep you safe...if not, know your limits of fatigue and weather etc...if you're tired and you spin one in, the operator looses a plane, you get a piece in the paper and 15 minutes of fame.
Maybe iv'e been lucky working for places that although small, had a program set up and daily flight sheets to stay within the 703 happy place.
5 days for the entire season? .... If you're letting the Boss "drop the pen" for a whole season, that's your own problem. Don't whine about having no days off, know your CARs to keep legal, and listen to your "little voice" to keep yourself safe. PIC!!!!
remember what the C stands for? !!!
Ah yes water wings, much easier said than done.
Reality is, this was one of the better float companies in canada, in business 50 years. Try going against 50 years of family grain, you'll get so many slivers you won't hang around long.
And if you think this is the only float company, or aviation company where this happens, you're obviously not old enough to be in the big boys pool.
Reality is, this was one of the better float companies in canada, in business 50 years. Try going against 50 years of family grain, you'll get so many slivers you won't hang around long.
And if you think this is the only float company, or aviation company where this happens, you're obviously not old enough to be in the big boys pool.
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sky's the limit
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180,
My first flying job years ago was photo flying taking pictures of farms in BC, AB, and Sask. We too only got time off when it was raining, minimum days were 8hours, with many many days around the 12.5-13hr mark, and was all below 300ft or so. Let me stress that the day I started I had 200.1hrs. How this is legal I don't know. That said, damn fun at the time.
I thought this was just a loophole here in Canada, then I flew for an American company under FAR 91 overseas - 180hrs one month single pilot in a King Air.... To this day I'm baffled as to how this can be legal. There are probably some members reading this post STILL working for that company, and justifying it all the way to the bank.
My first flying job years ago was photo flying taking pictures of farms in BC, AB, and Sask. We too only got time off when it was raining, minimum days were 8hours, with many many days around the 12.5-13hr mark, and was all below 300ft or so. Let me stress that the day I started I had 200.1hrs. How this is legal I don't know. That said, damn fun at the time.
I thought this was just a loophole here in Canada, then I flew for an American company under FAR 91 overseas - 180hrs one month single pilot in a King Air.... To this day I'm baffled as to how this can be legal. There are probably some members reading this post STILL working for that company, and justifying it all the way to the bank.
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water wings
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Like L'Oreal says "because you're worth it"
as i said..maybe i was lucky the comapnies i was with..i did not speak for every one...however, when the surprise audit DID happen, we had nothing to worry about, a visiting pilot from a neighbouring company, however had to swallow his own stomach, and scurried home with a bottle of liquid paper.
I'm just saying that the main complaints on this forum (aside from Jetsgo bashing) seem to be pilots that are complaining about their job that they claim to love but hate the conditins that go with it.
Unless your'e on your low paying first season trying to prove your worth, we ALL have to stand together and stop the crap from recurring...remember, we ALL work hard, and it is a blast to tell stries of hardship around the bar/campfire and try to be the one that worked the longest day in float history...
Frankly, i think the guy or gal that will be working at that US lodge for 7G a month will have the way better story, and be able to pick up the tab. If we stop thinking that life is so hard and there is nothing we can do about working EVERY single day and sleeping on the dock for a meager salary, then we, as Canadain Pilots are always going to be complaining about the same thing...
Trying to better your workplace and duty hours is not a crime...if you didn't want suggestions, then why did you post your complaints.
I Am telling you that good float companies that obey rules exist and they actually realise that days off are good for them, too, in the form of less incidents... If you have the hours, get out of the 50 year/ not gonna change place and go to a place that will treat you better..unless you enjoy being treated like crap and flying over tired and under paid.
I'm just saying that if you volunteer to go back there knowing the problems, that you are also to blame for the continuation of the problems.
FLOAT pilots ARE real pilots who work their asses off every day to get the job done. Try to remember your worth.
As far as the Big Boys pool , i'm not comfortable sitting in a pool with too many men. it makes me feel all weird.
Float man, if you're readin this, i'd be in for a bush pilot's association....i'll still be on the social committee.
I'm just saying that the main complaints on this forum (aside from Jetsgo bashing) seem to be pilots that are complaining about their job that they claim to love but hate the conditins that go with it.
Unless your'e on your low paying first season trying to prove your worth, we ALL have to stand together and stop the crap from recurring...remember, we ALL work hard, and it is a blast to tell stries of hardship around the bar/campfire and try to be the one that worked the longest day in float history...
Frankly, i think the guy or gal that will be working at that US lodge for 7G a month will have the way better story, and be able to pick up the tab. If we stop thinking that life is so hard and there is nothing we can do about working EVERY single day and sleeping on the dock for a meager salary, then we, as Canadain Pilots are always going to be complaining about the same thing...
Trying to better your workplace and duty hours is not a crime...if you didn't want suggestions, then why did you post your complaints.
I Am telling you that good float companies that obey rules exist and they actually realise that days off are good for them, too, in the form of less incidents... If you have the hours, get out of the 50 year/ not gonna change place and go to a place that will treat you better..unless you enjoy being treated like crap and flying over tired and under paid.
I'm just saying that if you volunteer to go back there knowing the problems, that you are also to blame for the continuation of the problems.
FLOAT pilots ARE real pilots who work their asses off every day to get the job done. Try to remember your worth.
As far as the Big Boys pool , i'm not comfortable sitting in a pool with too many men. it makes me feel all weird.
Float man, if you're readin this, i'd be in for a bush pilot's association....i'll still be on the social committee.
180, I'd have to agree with you, most of these float operations are family run and you work nonstop without question or go home. Mid-season when you're exhausted and the boss or his/her family members are wondering why you're trying to sleep during your lunch break (if you have time for one) makes you want to dig out the CARS. However, what are the chances of finding another float job at that point in the year? water wings, I respect your opinion on working only legal work days but try parking that plane with 50 paying customers and 5 other employees standing on the dock staring you down as you stroll to your quarters to crack a cool one. I know where I work I would have to pack my bags while I enjoyed that wobbly pop.
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water wings
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float man!! the bush pilots neeeeed you!!!!!!
OK, thanks for respecting my opinion, but here'se the thing: the original post asked how TC and FAA get away with this kinda crap:
my answer: i dunno
my suggestion: I KNOW of companies that follow the rules so that YOU NEVER have to come to the point of leaving people on the dock, because it's your day off. I was actually pushed out of the office for showing up and shooting the shit one day on my "day off"
If pay day happenned on my day off, my tiny cheque was slipped under my door. (undisturbed crew rest theory taken a little too far, but i have to appreciate that)
i'm not arguing anything!!!! i'm posting what i know, apperently i'm the only pilot that ever worked for a company that followed 703 regs, i guess i am lucky.
Yah, your ass would be in a sling if you walked away with cash on the dock, i felt the same way when the waves were over the cowlings and the sun was setting, clouds lower than the trees, we all know the pressure sucks..
but c'mon...WHAT can we do if nobody seems to know what to do in the simple math situation of no days off? We all passed our IATRA or ATPL and we obviously know the rules, and the operators have the CARs on hand, so whuzzup?
Anybody have any suggestions on how to stop the pilots from getting pushed into unsafe work? Obviously the CARs don't mean shit.
i'm listening for suggestions, and glad i worked for the places i did..note to self, it sounds like the familly operators screw you more than the others. If i start a lodge, i'll treat pilots right, and hire 180 to boot, you sound like you need a break.
Like my buddy says "this is the only time TC is your friend" i think i understand that now iv'e read your working conditions..as far as wobly pops and just heading home, no booze allowed, no roads.
my answer: i dunno
my suggestion: I KNOW of companies that follow the rules so that YOU NEVER have to come to the point of leaving people on the dock, because it's your day off. I was actually pushed out of the office for showing up and shooting the shit one day on my "day off"
If pay day happenned on my day off, my tiny cheque was slipped under my door. (undisturbed crew rest theory taken a little too far, but i have to appreciate that)
i'm not arguing anything!!!! i'm posting what i know, apperently i'm the only pilot that ever worked for a company that followed 703 regs, i guess i am lucky.
Yah, your ass would be in a sling if you walked away with cash on the dock, i felt the same way when the waves were over the cowlings and the sun was setting, clouds lower than the trees, we all know the pressure sucks..
but c'mon...WHAT can we do if nobody seems to know what to do in the simple math situation of no days off? We all passed our IATRA or ATPL and we obviously know the rules, and the operators have the CARs on hand, so whuzzup?
Anybody have any suggestions on how to stop the pilots from getting pushed into unsafe work? Obviously the CARs don't mean shit.
i'm listening for suggestions, and glad i worked for the places i did..note to self, it sounds like the familly operators screw you more than the others. If i start a lodge, i'll treat pilots right, and hire 180 to boot, you sound like you need a break.
Like my buddy says "this is the only time TC is your friend" i think i understand that now iv'e read your working conditions..as far as wobly pops and just heading home, no booze allowed, no roads.
Ok, I am not studied up on this topic at the moment since I am not flying for a 703 operator, but if you are logging this time in either your logbook and/or the journey log you will most likely get caught at one point or another.
If you ever want to get an ATPL signed off, TC must see your logbook, am I not correct? (and from what I hear, they go through it very thoroughly)
Also, there are many times that TC has access to the journey log (company audits, accident investigations...etc).
The results of getting caught can be anything from not counting these hours for the issue of a higher licence, fines for each violation, or even removal of a licence. Am I correct on this?
So if you are putting yourself in this situation, why not tell the company that a second pilot is needed (maybe just a part-time guy) in order to follow the rules??? (assuming this company runs on a 703 OC)
If the company is not running on an OC and has decided to pay you under the table (for the other work you are doing for them of course!!!)
then you have put yourself in an odd situation right from the start. You should not be getting paid for the flying (legally) because your company does not hold an OC, and you cannot claim that they are working you too much, because you are logging all of this time on an aircraft as flying for recreation...you are just getting paid when you clean shitters and build docks.
Can someone let me know if I am understanding the rules correctly, because this is how I was told it works.
Anyways, the point of my story is please do not continue to break the rules if that is what you are doing right now. I understand in certain situations, some rules are bent and even broken...but when I work my way into one of these companies, I would really rather not have the pressure of a boss saying "well the last guy didn't mind flying every day for 15 hours, landing on the water at night and in WX that would scare off even some IFR pilots"
So please think of the guys like me, who would rather not put our lives in danger because some fishermen are out of minnows and beer. I love flying and I'd really like to survive my entire career so I can sit at the airport with all the other old f@rts and tell stories as we watch all the 172's buzz by, wishing we still had a medical so we could get up there and show 'em how its done.
If you ever want to get an ATPL signed off, TC must see your logbook, am I not correct? (and from what I hear, they go through it very thoroughly)
Also, there are many times that TC has access to the journey log (company audits, accident investigations...etc).
The results of getting caught can be anything from not counting these hours for the issue of a higher licence, fines for each violation, or even removal of a licence. Am I correct on this?
So if you are putting yourself in this situation, why not tell the company that a second pilot is needed (maybe just a part-time guy) in order to follow the rules??? (assuming this company runs on a 703 OC)
If the company is not running on an OC and has decided to pay you under the table (for the other work you are doing for them of course!!!)
then you have put yourself in an odd situation right from the start. You should not be getting paid for the flying (legally) because your company does not hold an OC, and you cannot claim that they are working you too much, because you are logging all of this time on an aircraft as flying for recreation...you are just getting paid when you clean shitters and build docks.
Can someone let me know if I am understanding the rules correctly, because this is how I was told it works.
Anyways, the point of my story is please do not continue to break the rules if that is what you are doing right now. I understand in certain situations, some rules are bent and even broken...but when I work my way into one of these companies, I would really rather not have the pressure of a boss saying "well the last guy didn't mind flying every day for 15 hours, landing on the water at night and in WX that would scare off even some IFR pilots"
So please think of the guys like me, who would rather not put our lives in danger because some fishermen are out of minnows and beer. I love flying and I'd really like to survive my entire career so I can sit at the airport with all the other old f@rts and tell stories as we watch all the 172's buzz by, wishing we still had a medical so we could get up there and show 'em how its done.
"So please think of the guys like me, who would rather not put our lives in danger because some fishermen are out of minnows and beer."
Whats the risk to reward? Good point.
If you stand your ground they can't really fire you, they would have to hire a new pilot and train them, especially if you are documenting everything and can fall back on the CARs. Well they can fire you, but then your first call will be to the labour board and then your second call can be to TC.
Whats the risk to reward? Good point.
If you stand your ground they can't really fire you, they would have to hire a new pilot and train them, especially if you are documenting everything and can fall back on the CARs. Well they can fire you, but then your first call will be to the labour board and then your second call can be to TC.
I've decided to edit this in the name of self preservation.
Water wings, wanna' PM me with the names of a couple of those float companies that actually follow the rules. I'd love to see my 40th birthday.
Water wings, wanna' PM me with the names of a couple of those float companies that actually follow the rules. I'd love to see my 40th birthday.
Last edited by 180 on Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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water wings
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Yeah I'm sure they do know how to drop the pen and leave out a couple of flights per day '180'. And that is the reason why I posted in the first place, to let you know what the consequences are from what you have done. You are directly putting the person next in line for your position in danger.
1. You as the PIC should be filling out the journey log
2. You as the PIC should be deciding when you fly, you are a Captain, make the right decision...and please folllow the rules as best you can
3. You should also be determining when the A/C is ready for an inspection
4. Oh, and by the way...you boss sounds like a real winner when he threatens to kill anyone who messes with his business
I had the motivation when I was starting out to take the drive up in NW Ontario and find a dock job that would hopefully lead to a flying position. However, I weighed my options carefully. After talking with many pilots that had started out up there, I decided that the risk of being pushed to do some kind of dangerous flying was too great when you are a low-time pilot working for a small family-owned business (I know there are many good companies out there too). It seemed that at least half of the guys that I had spoken with were pushed to do the same things you were.
If you put me in the same situation with 250 hours, I probably would have been very intimidated as well. However, everyone has a fine line of what they will do for the job, and what they consider dangerous and unethical.
Anyways, the point of this never-ending story was not to give you some kind of bad attitude, because I have a lot of respect for the guys who do make their start in the bush. I just think that somebody has to stand up and make these guys hire a second pilot (I know they can afford to hire someone part-time) and maintain their equpiment properly. The End.
1. You as the PIC should be filling out the journey log
2. You as the PIC should be deciding when you fly, you are a Captain, make the right decision...and please folllow the rules as best you can
3. You should also be determining when the A/C is ready for an inspection
4. Oh, and by the way...you boss sounds like a real winner when he threatens to kill anyone who messes with his business
I had the motivation when I was starting out to take the drive up in NW Ontario and find a dock job that would hopefully lead to a flying position. However, I weighed my options carefully. After talking with many pilots that had started out up there, I decided that the risk of being pushed to do some kind of dangerous flying was too great when you are a low-time pilot working for a small family-owned business (I know there are many good companies out there too). It seemed that at least half of the guys that I had spoken with were pushed to do the same things you were.
If you put me in the same situation with 250 hours, I probably would have been very intimidated as well. However, everyone has a fine line of what they will do for the job, and what they consider dangerous and unethical.
Anyways, the point of this never-ending story was not to give you some kind of bad attitude, because I have a lot of respect for the guys who do make their start in the bush. I just think that somebody has to stand up and make these guys hire a second pilot (I know they can afford to hire someone part-time) and maintain their equpiment properly. The End.
I tried 'The Hub', trust me I tried.
Anyways, this is the end of this story. I'm now going to edit myself out of this topic for self preservation.
Thanx for the good and interesting feedback from all.
As for the initial question, maybe the answer is WE, the experienced guys and gals who've been f**cked around by the many shady operators should apply for the Transport jobs and seek our revenge!
Anyways, this is the end of this story. I'm now going to edit myself out of this topic for self preservation.
Thanx for the good and interesting feedback from all.
As for the initial question, maybe the answer is WE, the experienced guys and gals who've been f**cked around by the many shady operators should apply for the Transport jobs and seek our revenge!
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Cat Driver
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180 :
"As for the initial question, maybe the answer is WE, the experienced guys and gals who've been f**cked around by the many shady operators should apply for the Transport jobs and seek our revenge! "
Please explain to me how you could seek revenge if you got on with TC?
Cat
"As for the initial question, maybe the answer is WE, the experienced guys and gals who've been f**cked around by the many shady operators should apply for the Transport jobs and seek our revenge! "
Please explain to me how you could seek revenge if you got on with TC?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Rubberbiscuit
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Maybe a little bit off topic but here I go:
It's the overall mentality in the vast majority of pilots in this country leading us to where we are and I am not innocent either.
The reason we have operator's like that, or the ones with low wages and training bonds that put revenue before rules and safety etc. is that if "you won't, there is some in line behind you who will".
Now. We as Pilot's are guilty for putting up with this but the root cause is the operator's out there. They are the ones setting the standards in the industry, permitting rule braking and ignoring safety and accepting this as the "norm".
Hundreds of accidents in all brances of aviation over the years could have been avoided if managements raised the bar and discouraged everyday conduct that undermines safety.
The question is. How can we as Pilot's stand up and put and end to this?
Not easy. As a new guy in a company where all the other Pilot's are sticking with the "norm", what are you as one induvidual to do. Walk out and call TC? They probably will not do anything but your career might very well be over before it even starts if you are fresh out of school, as we all know how small the Canadian world of aviation is!
This is where I wonder if a Canadian pilots association covering all commercial pilots might be a good idea? Could we maybe force minimum wages and set more reasonable standards or get the government to draft something banning trainingbonds? Unless we as a goup voice our opinion
and tell them that the legal duty and operating hours are unsafe TC will not change didly unless there is more accident's.
I don't know but it sure makes me think!!
It's the overall mentality in the vast majority of pilots in this country leading us to where we are and I am not innocent either.
The reason we have operator's like that, or the ones with low wages and training bonds that put revenue before rules and safety etc. is that if "you won't, there is some in line behind you who will".
Now. We as Pilot's are guilty for putting up with this but the root cause is the operator's out there. They are the ones setting the standards in the industry, permitting rule braking and ignoring safety and accepting this as the "norm".
Hundreds of accidents in all brances of aviation over the years could have been avoided if managements raised the bar and discouraged everyday conduct that undermines safety.
The question is. How can we as Pilot's stand up and put and end to this?
Not easy. As a new guy in a company where all the other Pilot's are sticking with the "norm", what are you as one induvidual to do. Walk out and call TC? They probably will not do anything but your career might very well be over before it even starts if you are fresh out of school, as we all know how small the Canadian world of aviation is!
This is where I wonder if a Canadian pilots association covering all commercial pilots might be a good idea? Could we maybe force minimum wages and set more reasonable standards or get the government to draft something banning trainingbonds? Unless we as a goup voice our opinion
and tell them that the legal duty and operating hours are unsafe TC will not change didly unless there is more accident's.
I don't know but it sure makes me think!!
