Bid 08-02

[Quebecflyer]

I heard in the YYZ crew room today that the bid will be coming out Thursday, Friday at the latest.

I'm anxious to see it, especially with the memo posted everywhere about Aeropersonel giving info sessions about contract work...

Stay tuned for another exciting program.

[tonysoprano]

The more guys getting LOAs and retiring, the more junior jobs saved. Good time to go work somewhere else for a while till the dust settles.

[Al707]

"The more guys getting LOAs and retiring, the more junior jobs saved. Good time to go work somewhere else for a while till the dust settles."

Ahhh Tony... Just about this time last year you were spouting off about 100K plus jobs for 18 month new hires.

So has the music stopped? How quickly things change huh?

Actually it stopped about 2 months after our little back and forth that you were adamant about me being incorrect and overly "doomy and gloomy".

How long to a livable wage for PG pilots (A320 right seat or EMB left) now Tony? Maybe my attempts at a reasonable response to those questions last year will be slightly closer to the mark than your overly optimistic predictions?

Now it's time to go hide while the dust settles huh thanks for the insight!

[tonysoprano]

Ahhh Tony... Just about this time last year you were spouting off about 100K plus jobs for 18 month new hires.

Are you denying there aren't any?
Al. Let's be realistic. You have taken me way out of context and I played along with your stupidity. Now it's time to stop the stupidity. You don't like what you have signed up for and now you want to take it out on me. I simply offered the idea that a six figure income for a junior pilot was possible at that time by taking a certain career path. Some did it. Some didn't or couldn't. Mayve reserve on the Emb was not an option. Who knows? You disagreed with me. Actually you got downright offended. Well, I couldn't and still can't make you understand. But that's nothing. Worse than that, I think you've made a big mistake in life. That is, becoming a pilot (at AC). I'm sorry things didn't work out for you at AC. I hope you and your family don't get affected by what may possibly lie ahead in the near future. I sincerely wish you the best.

[LEMD]

I also heard the bid is due this week.

[Al707]

Not denying it at all. Never did!

I made a reply to someone enquiring about the job, pay grades and progression to the best of my ability. You are the one who jumped on me with the "where else can you make a 100k + in 18 months" BS

No! You are taking me way out of context not the other way around. I merely stated that it's been a good run and things are bound to change dramatically for those caught at the bottom when the "music stops". Turns out I was being "doomy and gloomy" when I suggested things may start to behave more... ahh.... normally.

Obviously you haven't been around long enough to have seen it coming or the ramifications of normal cycles in our business.

Never once did I say I didn't like what I signed up for... quite the contrary actually!

But I do take great exception to people like you grossly misrepresenting the job and the conditions. Perhaps that's one of the reasons everyone thinks we make significantly more than we do.

Thanks for your wishes but I'm not even on the property at the moment as I figured I could save a job by taking a leave.

[Al707]

geeesh...

Edited 6 times already. Why not just think before you type and say it right the 1st time

7 now?

[tonysoprano]

Obviously you haven't been around long enough to have seen it coming or the ramifications of normal cycles in our business

Al. I've been around since the seventies, seen three recessions, layed off twice and worked for two companies that went t-up. At the time I made my comments with my "rose colored glasses", certain things were possible. I didn't think I needed to explain or expand on the ups and downs of our cyclical industry to a fellow AC pilot, al-be-it a new one.

geeesh...

Edited 6 times already. Why not just think before you type and say it right the 1st time
geeesh...

My spelling is horrible. Especially without my rose colored glasses.

[Al707]

Rant over dude.

Lets just agree to disagree on this one

I am not on here to bash AC or mislead people. Last years comments were intended to be reasonable expectations (as that was the question) not the best case scenarios that you chose to portray.

I still feel my reply was nearer the mark and even those conservative numbers could be way off when this bid is released. Only time will tell.

The beginning to mid 2007 was a historical best with regards to progression and therefore pay and shouldn't be used to over excite people as when those expectations are not met it just leads to greater disappointment.

[tonysoprano]

The beginning to mid 2007 was a historical best with regards to progression and therefore pay and shouldn't be used to over excite people as when those expectations are not met it just leads to greater disappointment

.

2007 was not historically the best. We've been through "the best" many times. Most of those who came back after the layoff of the early nineties became captains on the 9 upon returning. In the mid nineties we hired direct captains on the RJ off the street. Many of those hired since the early 2000s are now left seat on something or well into the six figure income. Some of the people hired within the last two years are now captains. It doesn't mean that it can't be reversed when times are bad. Seniority solves the problem. Progression and or salary hike oppurtunities come and go. Why am I even explaining this. Careful how you bid and things, historically speaking, get better. That's encouraging and exciting enough. Parking checklist, please.

[babybus]

Back to the topic,

Has anyone heard anything as to what we can expect?
I heard that layoffs were no longer in the cards but reductions on the 767 in YYZ and YVR would happen.

[ram]

Heard the same.

No Layoffs,
Increase (on paper anyways) on the Emj and Bus to accommodate the 767 reduction...

[Prospect]

Bid is out. Check myacops

[Quebecflyer]

Looks like we missed having to let anyone go... even though there's movement on paper.

I'm kinda happy about that... I would have been the first one out the door!

Oh no! Now you all know who I am!

And a Merry Christmas to all!!

[PilotFlying]

A job very well done by our Crew Planning people.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what exactly reinstatement rights entail?

Regards,

[Al707]

Art. 25.
25.08 to be more specific.

[PilotFlying]

Thank you.

So, to clarify in English: if a pilot is involuntarily reduced from his position, he will have first crack at more junior vacancies?

Am I even close?

Would I also be correct in reading that a junior pilot holding position 'X' cannot be 'bumped' from this position by a more senior pilot holding RIR, as those RIR are subject to vacancies and availability?

Thanks again,

[Lost in Saigon]

If a pilot is involuntarily reduced from his position, he can bump into ANY position on his base that his seniority can hold. He can even bump into EMJ Captain. He can also elect to bump into another base to maintain or improve his position. In some cases this will be a company paid move.

Any forced reduced pilot then has re-instatement rights back to his original position. That means when a new bid comes out, he will get any vacancy ahead of more senior pilots bidding on his old position.

If you check RO (reduction only) that means you are willing to accept a reduction even though you will not be forced reduced. You might do this if you don't like the idea of being left very junior on your equipment. In this case you are willing to take a reduction to a lesser position instead of some one junior to you. It must be to a junior position, and you are not given re-instatement rights. You will have to stay there until your seniority can once again hold a higher position.

[Lost in Saigon]

25.07 Awarding Position Vacancies and Reductions

25.07.01 A posted position vacancy shall be awarded to the senior pilot bidding for such
vacancy, subject to the preferences specified in his Standing Preferential Bid (SPB),
the provisions of Article 22 (Seniority), and except as otherwise provided for in Articles
25.06, 25.07.03, 25.07.04 and 25.08. Only a pilot holding an awarded position (or a
RIR) in the base-status in which a vacancy occurs shall be eligible for award of such
vacancy if:

25.07.01.01 The number of pilots required for the base-status (including higher rated status onthe same base) is less than or equal to the existing number for that base-status
(including higher rated status on the same base) at the time of the award; OR,

25.07.01.02 The number of pilots required for that base is less than or equal to the existing
number (including surplus pilots being reactivated to their designated base) at the
time of the award.

25.07.02 Except as otherwise provided in Article 25, a reduction may only be awarded to a pilotwho is moving to a position on his current base. A reduction may only be awarded to:

25.07.02.01 A pilot who is moving to a lower rated position; OR

25.07.02.02 A pilot who is forced reduced from his current awarded position as described in
25.07.06; OR

25.07.02.03 A pilot who is currently holding the same awarded position as a forced reduced
pilot and elects to use the seniority of the forced reduced pilot to enable him to
move to a higher rated position on his current base. Seniority of the forced
reduced pilot shall only be used to determine the eligibility for such a reduction;
OR

25.07.02.04 Pilots as described in Articles 25.07.06, 25.07.07 and 25.07.08; or,

25.07.02.05 A "triple surplus" reduction may be awarded to a pilot if the following conditions
are met:

25.07.02.05.01 More pilots in awarded position than required; and,
25.07.02.05.02 More pilots in awarded base-status than required; and,
25.07.02.05.03 More pilots on awarded base than required; and,
25.07.02.05.04 Pilot is moving to an equal or lower rated position on a base which has fewer
awarded pilots than jobs available (i.e.: OPEN BASE).

25.07.03 Freezes as described in Articles 25.06.06, 25.06.07, 25.06.08, and 25.06.09 will not
apply to pilots who are forced to take a reduction.

25.07.04 Freezes as described in Article 25.06.06, 25.06.07, 25.06.08, and 25.06.09 will not
apply to pilots electing to take a reduction to a lower rated position.

25.07.05 When a reduction exists on a pilot's current position and a vacancy exists on the
pilot's requested position, the pilot will be deemed to be moving on the vacancy (if to
higher rated position) or reduction (if lower rated position), as appropriate, with the
other being cancelled as the result of such a move.

25.07.06 A forced reduction is assigned to a pilot whenever the pilot can no longer hold his
current equipment by virtue of his seniority. Forced reduction will be in accordance
with the pilot's SPB. However, if there is no SPB on file or if there are an insufficient
number of choices on an SPB during the award process and a forced reduction is
required, a pilot so affected shall be awarded a position, subject to his seniority, in
accordance with the following priority:

25.07.06.01 His qualified position if on base.
25.07.06.02 Previous position if on base.
25.07.06.03 Next lower rated position on base until exhausted.
25.07.06.04 Highest position on his base that his seniority entitles him to.
25.07.06.05 Most junior position on most junior base that has a net increase. Company paid
move.
25.07.06.06 Most junior position on most junior base. Company paid move.
25.07.06.07 Surplus.

25.07.07 A pilot forced to reduce from his awarded position to a lower rated status, who has
sufficient seniority to hold a position at another base which would enable him to
maintain or improve his status may elect to move to that base.

25.07.08 If a pilot on a base is force reduced out of his current position and is unable to hold
any other position at his base, he shall have the option of moving to any position that
he can hold in the system. If the pilot elects to move to a base which has, at that
time, more jobs available than awarded pilots (i.e., OPEN BASE), then this move shall
be at Company expense.

25.08 Reinstatement Rights

25.08.01 Reinstatement rights (RIR) to a position will only be assigned when a pilot is forced toreduce from his awarded position. These RIRs have a thirty (30) month duration from
the closing date of the bid associated with the reduction subject to the provisions of
Article 25.08.06.

25.08.02 Pilots, when reduced to the extent that they can no longer maintain a position in their awarded base-status, will also acquire any RIRs to a position in that same Base-
Status held by pilots junior to them. These RIRs, whether awarded or acquired, have
a thirty (30) month duration from the closing date of the bid associated with the
reduction subject to the provisions of Article 25.08.06.

25.08.03 RIRs will "reserve" vacancy assignments subject to reductions and availability.

25.08.04 RIRs will be effective immediately and include the current position assignment award.

25.08.05 When more than one pilot holds RIRs, the RIRs will be honored in seniority order
subject to the pilots' SPBs.

25.08.06 A pilot will lose a RIR whenever he bypasses any opportunity to exercise that RIR,
when he is reinstated by that RIR or when the RIR expires.

25.08.07 Any pilot who elects to change base without being forced will not be entitled to RIRs at the base he elects to move from.

25.08.08 A pilot who is forced to change base and elects to move to the most senior position that he can hold at his new base shall inherit and have the right to exercise any RIRs to a position on that same Base, held by pilots junior to him.

[disco]

Lost in Saigon:

Article 25.07.02.03 says that you can take the reduction from a junior pilot - even to a higher rated position. You have said, it must be to a lower position. Am I reading that Article wrong?

And how would this be bid on the SPB?

[Lost in Saigon]

You are talking about using RO (reduction only). That is a very confusing part of the contract. I hope I don't confuse the issue for anyone.

I said RO is to a junior position because I can't imagine a situation where you would use RO to bid to a higher position.

Why would anyone use RO to use a junior pilots' seniority number to bid to a higher position. Why not just use your own seniority number and bid it if you can hold it? In both cases there are no re-instatement rights and if you ever try to bid down you will be subject to a 48 month downbid freeze.

Mabey I am missing something. Can anyone give an example why it would be good to use RO to bid a higher position?

[disco]

Lost in Saigon,

maybe I am misunderstanding the deal.

eg. a 767 RP is being bumped off but his seniority can hold A320 (a higher rated position). In this case he can move to the A320 even if there wasn't a vacancy? i.e. he is bumping someone at the bottom? Whereas, if he bid it normally (not a R/O) he wouldn't get to go there without a suitable vacancy.

Further, a 767 RP senior to him, can exercise his right to take this bump instead of that junior guy.

Have I got this wrong?

[Lost in Saigon]

There are three ways an RP can get to be a 320 FO.

1) He bids 320 FO above his current 767 RP position and is awarded it even though he is not being forced reduced. There must be a vacancy for this to happen.

2) He is being forced reduced and puts 320 FO BELOW 767 RP on his bid. He will bump into this position. He will have re-instatement rights back to 767 RP.

3) He doesn't like the idea of being a junior 767 RP so he bids 320 FO below his current position (767 RP) and then checks off RO (reduction only) on his standing bid. If there are any junior 767 RP's being forced reduced, he will then be able to bump into a 320 FO position using the seniority number of the junior pilot. Once he is trained he will use his own seniority number for monthly bidding. He will NOT have re-instatement rights back to 767 RP. If he ever bids back to an RP position, he will be frozen for 48 months. (downbid freeze)

[disco]

Hi Lost,

thanks very much. Your answer makes things quite clear for me.

I am the guy in option #3. Not interested in finding myself too junior as RP and thinking some YWGers etc may parachute in higher up. Thing is, the SPB gives a warning that that bid line will be ignored because I have selected "RO only" to a higher position.

Guess I will have to call a CMSC member to be sure how to bid this option.

[Lost in Saigon]

It is always a good idea to get "Expert" advice. (I am no expert)

I think if you use RO, it could possibly backfire, because you would be using a junior pilot's number to try and bump into the 320 FO position.

Here is another way to do it:

How many guys do you want to have below you? Instead of "0" below, change your current position to something like "5" BELOW.

Then put 320 FO below your current position. If you can't hold 767 RP with 5 below, the bid will drop down to your next bid line and you will be awarded 320 FO. Again you may want to qualify it with 5 below or something.

There are lots of vacancies for 320 FO in YYZ, but it may be better trying to bid in using your own number.