The Dumbing Down of Aviation

[Cat Driver]

The dumbing down starts at the training level.

I was reading a comment on the flight training thread about training for the multi engine rating where some poster made a very telling comment regarding training for the multi engine rating.

Here it is in full:

It seems, this discussion has missed one rather important point:
You don't need to be an flight instructor BUT:
How often do students log the multi training as part of their commercial training? They can not use the dual training for this purpose if not provided by a flight instructor.
That's why most schools would probably want to see your instructor rating.

It was the important point bit that grabbed my attention.

The whole mindset is ass backwards when the logging of time for the commercial license trumps the quality of the instruction.

The message is don't get your training from someone with decades of experience flying multi engine airplanes.

Go to a FTU where they can give you a pilot with just enough time on type to meet TC's minimums because he/she has an instructors rating.

And we are arguing about why aviation is getting dumbed down?

[mattedfred]

great post CD

university professors get paid quite well in my opinion and they aren't required to cut their teeth working in their field first

FTUs don't respect instructors and neither do the students

yes, the cost of flight training would skyrocket if instructors were paid better and experienced pilots were sought for the positions

but the training would be superior and safer which benefits the entire industry

a real catch 22 i'm afraid

[Cat Driver]

yes, the cost of flight training would skyrocket if instructors were paid better and experienced pilots were sought for the positions

That is not true.

The students would get their licenses in far less time, therefore the cost would not increase.

[mattedfred]

i assume that it would if the now experienced flight instructors were paid similar to university professors

i agree that the training would likely finish when the minimum requirements of TC were met

but i still feel that the overall cost would increase as i feel that it should

becoming a pilot isn't a right just as flying as a passenger shouldn't be a right

let the government decide what sort of subsidization should occur for student pilots and passengers

it isn't cheap becoming a doctor but look at what they make after their residencies

[Doc]

yes, the cost of flight training would skyrocket if instructors were paid better and experienced pilots were sought for the positions

That is not true.

The students would get their licenses in far less time, therefore the cost would not increase.

How very true. Instead of just being there for the hours, a high time instructor would be there to actually get the point across, in as timely manner as possible. I'd be willing to bet, you or I could teach a student in less time than an average newly trained class 4 instructor.

And yes Trey, it was "tongue in cheek".......just picturing Liquid Charlie diving the mighty Norseman from two hundred feet to make it over the next row of trees.....would be fun to watch.

[Doc]

i assume that it would if the now experienced flight instructors were paid similar to university professors

i agree that the training would likely finish when the minimum requirements of TC were met

but i still feel that the overall cost would increase as i feel that it should

becoming a pilot isn't a right just as flying as a passenger shouldn't be a right

let the government decide what sort of subsidization should occur for student pilots and passengers

it isn't cheap becoming a doctor but look at what they make after their residencies

Pardon? While we're on the subject of "dumbing down", I have absolutely NO idea what you just said. Do you?
Doesn't it hurt when you knuckles drag across the tarmac??

[mattedfred]

so why do many of the larger operators in canada feel that graduates of aviation universities or colleges are superior to other candidates?

most of the instructors at these institutions have very little air taxi/airline industry experience and they get paid more than the average FTU instructor

i think it's the fancy degree and diploma as well as the time spent above and beyond the minimum TC requirements

so why couldn't your average FTU run their program the same way and give the aviation universities and colleges a run for their money

certainly they could afford to hire more experienced pilots at a higher wage for less then it takes to run the average aviation university or college program

[Doc]

so why couldn't your average FTU run their program the same way and give the aviation universities and colleges a run for their money

certainly they could afford to hire more experienced pilots at a higher wage for less then it takes to run the average aviation university or college program

Real simple answer. The FTUs are funded by the student pilot's wallets. The colleges are funded by the tax payer. You did know that, didn't you?? Have you visited one of these crystal palaces the colleges have, vs. an average FTU? I don't mean to be rude, but DUH!!

[trey kule]

so why do many of the larger operators in canada feel that graduates of aviation universities or colleges are superior to other candidates?

Here is the answer. They dont. But the shiny new graduates of these colleges equate the right seat with their first step on the way to the airlines and so will work for peanuts. Truth is, many of them are flying in a plane that really requires only one crew and the Captain has a single pilot PPC. They are, as one large operator told me...window dressing.
The college grads dont seem to understand this concept at all, and , for a lucky few, there are some charter operators who have a diversified fleet that allows some to move across to get PIC time..They are the minority.


And the time logged is ....well, there are resumes coming in everyday from pilots with 2000 hours and 200 PIC that can not get upgraded. You see posts here of pilots wanting to fly anyones smal aircraft to build PIC time so they can move across the cockpit.

With the downturn and the layoffs you will again soon see direct entry captains being hired by the charter operators....

If you check with the majors you will find that they want PIC time also...

[BoostedNihilist]

so why couldn't your average FTU run their program the same way and give the aviation universities and colleges a run for their money

Your average ftu can. It is called an integrated course. In my search for training I looked at every option out there. I found that the integrated courses were a better way to start because they don`t set you up with a pretty much useless instrument rating, and you would get tailwheel and aero time.. which is something I have not seen at many college programs.

Don't rag so bad on FTU's. Every one of them that I Have been to has been top notch run by people who love aviation more than money, which to me is a good thing.

so why do many of the larger operators in canada feel that graduates of aviation universities or colleges are superior to other candidates?

WHy did people think the earth was flat? they didn't know any better and there was no data to back their theory up. I Believe it is called ignorance.

most of the instructors at these institutions have very little air taxi/airline industry experience and they get paid more than the average FTU instructor

IT depends, but it really isn`t `THAT much more once you`ve bumped up your tax bracket and lost a shitload of overtime.

i think it's the fancy degree and diploma as well as the time spent above and beyond the minimum TC requirements

What do you mean by this, are you talking about the extra scholastic activities, or are you talking about the flying

[Cat Driver]

Doc, I have to get out of this discussion because it is going nowhere due to the simple fact people will stick to what they have been taught because they don't know any better.

I don't know about you but there is no fear of my ever becoming a flight instructor in Canada because I would need a lobotomy to be able to do it their way.

[Doc]

Doc, I have to get out of this discussion because it is going nowhere due to the simple fact people will stick to what they have been taught because they don't know any better.

I don't know about you but there is no fear of my ever becoming a flight instructor in Canada because I would need a lobotomy to be able to do it their way.

So, you're telling me you are incapable of regurgitating drivel? Also referred to as "patter"? In this situation, you will always say "this". I know. It's absolute crap.

[Cat Driver]

So, you're telling me you are incapable of regurgitating drivel? Also referred to as "patter"? In this situation, you will always say "this". I know. It's absolute crap.

Doc, why would anyone with any self worth and integrity regurgitate drivel on something as serious and important as teaching flying just to satisfy a few morons working for TC?

But you have pointed out part of the reason why it is getting dumbed down, it is because people are willing to regurgitate crap just to get a license to teach.

If TC had any integrity or common sense why do the blindly accept training records for the multi engine rating done in the dead of winter in Central Canada where instructors claim to teach full feathering of engines at thirty below?

Or am I way out of touch and all that training is now done on airplanes with PT6's?

[Doc]

Don't even get me started on the insane requirement of shutting down piston engines in training! Only a complete and utter MORON.....yes......MORON.....would follow that asinine requirement, thought up my some mindless idiot sitting in Ottawa with his head so far UP HIS ASS he's beginning to enjoy the stink of his own stupidity!!! Yes, my good Cat....dumbing down, starts a the top......and like shit on a hot day.....it slithers down hill..

[AuxBatOn]

I think the very rigid, structured and almost choreographed way of flying is good in the initial stages of flying, when the student still has a very very limited spare capacity outside learning to flying. Once you progress, introduce out of the norm scenario. If you do it before, you may just overtask the student and he won't learn a thing. That way, you slowly start opening up the student to the world out there without completely overwhelming him. Am I saying not to push him? Certainly not, but don't push him to the point he doesn't learn from it anymore. Can it be done in 45 hours? Certainly.

But you can't expect someone to "think outside the box" right from the get go. It takes experience.

Who came up with the idea of shutting down a perfectly fine engine for training?!

[Cat Driver]

Who came up with the idea of shutting down a perfectly fine engine for training?!

The question is not who came up with the idea the real question is why do they continue to demand that to teach someone to fly anything you do something that can create an emergency where none existed.

Stupidity can be forgiven because someone can be born that way, however to allow stupid people to hold positions of power within a government department especially one as important as flight training is unbelievable.

Once again the dumbing down starts at the top and they sure have the qualifications for dumbing down in TC,s flight training standards.

[Cat Driver]

Incidently Doc, on many occasions I have asked how many instructors use a camcorder while flight training, so far no one has said they do.

Why don't they when it is one of the best training aids a flight instructor can use?

And they have the audacity to suggest I am stone age in my training methods.

[AuxBatOn]

Incidently Doc, on many occasions I have asked how many instructors use a camcorder while flight training, so far no one has said they do.

To be fair, Cat, I've never been taught with a Camcorder attached to the plane, except when I started fighting, in which case, we started using stuff like ACMIs and HUD Tapes, however, they are used to asses the shots more than anything (tapes). The ACMI is used to asses geometry between the airplanes in flight.

Even if I've never been taught with a Camcorder in the early stages, I don't think I'm a worse pilot. It all depends how you are taught and how your instructor reinforce your strenghs, and how he corrects your weaknesses. If you use camcorder, great! However, this is not the only way to do things.

[Cat Driver]

It all depends how you are taught and how your instructor reinforce your strenghs, and how he corrects your weaknesses.

The camcorder is used to correct mistakes by connecting to a TV or a computer such as a lap top and when the flight gets to a point where the student does something wrong I stop the video and have them use a laser pen to show me where they were looking and what they were thinking at that moment.....

There may be a better way to debrief but in over fifty years of teaching flying I have not found it.

If you use camcorder, great!

You think I am just B.S.ing?

However, this is not the only way to do things.

No kidding, we learn something new every day.

When I want to learn something new this is the place to come for sure.

[AuxBatOn]

The camcorder is used to correct mistakes by connecting to a TV or a computer such as a lap top and when the flight gets to a point where the student does something wrong I stop the video and have them use a laser pen to show me where they were looking and what they were thinking at that moment.....

There may be a better way to debrief but in over fifty years of teaching flying I have not found it.

There are no better way for YOU! You can't apply what is best for you to everyone!

You think I am just B.S.ing?

I was actually using "you" as in "instructor" ie: If an instructor uses a camcorder, great. Sorry you took it that way

[trey kule]

First of all, an old buddy of mine started a helicopter flight school and he has been using camcorders since inception about 6 years ago. Last time I saw him he had started a fixed wing school also and was installing them in the fixed wing aircraft.
He too, raved about their usefulness. But then he had about 4000 hours or so of operational flying in helicopters before he started the school.....hmmmmmm. It might be a good thing for a CFI to check on their instructors abilities also.

Is this whole "scenerio" thing something they teach new instructors. Even reading the posts here I have noticed some scenerios that have no basis in any real world flying.

Now, to get Doc going. Many years ago I asked the question about engine shutdowns. Was told it was to instil confidence in the student. Notwithstanding the fact that we usually fly well under gross weight and might just be instilling a confidence that is not warrented, I stupidly and religiously followed the rule. Until one day we shut down an engine and could not get a restart and flew the plane home on one engine. It was the last time I shut down a perfectly good engine to create a relatively abnormal situation on purpose. As an aside, I did a UK ride just a few years back . Did the approach to mins with a cloud base about 300 above mins, and then the missed and the UK inspector pulled the mixture control. We flew the missed, a hold, and another approach and landing with one engine actually shut down.

The teaching I see the results of nowadays is a mantra where hands fly around the cockpit at lightnening speed while the aircraft slowly descends towards the earth because the student has forgotten the primary rule to first fly the plane.
I have to wonder how many instructors emphasize that point as much as memorizing all the little nicities of engine out drills...I dont fly piston aircraft very often anymore but over and over when I was doing navajo checkrides the student would push the mixtures full rich at the start of the approach. At the ground debriefing I would ask them about minimum EGT temps and why they did it....amazing to here the rationalizations....very few even looked at the EGT.

You know, I just realized this is pretty much preaching to the choir, so like cat I am going to leave this thread.

[Cat Driver]

There are no better way for YOU! You can't apply what is best for you to everyone!

What in hell is your problem AuxBatOn can't I make a suggestion without you tearing it all apart.

So once again I could care less what you think or how you do things but for me it does work because I get paid about ten times what a Canadian flight instructor gets paid.

[Cat Driver]

You know, I just realized this is pretty much preaching to the choir, so like cat I am going to leave this thread.

Might as well because it is like pissing into a hurricane, it just blows back in your own face.

So fu.k e'm let them dumb down because it is to late to change it now.

[AuxBatOn]

There are no better way for YOU! You can't apply what is best for you to everyone!

What in hell is your problem AuxBatOn can't I make a suggestion without you tearing it all apart.

So once again I could care less what you think or how you do things but for me it does work because I get paid about ten times what a Canadian flight instructor gets paid.

I'm not tearing you apart Cat! All I'm saying is that there are many ways to instruct, that are just as efficient and effective than using a Camcorder! It's NOT for every instructor and every students. But giving the right Intructor/Student, it can be a good tool!

[Blue Side Down]

But the shiny new graduates of these colleges equate the right seat with their first step on the way to the airlines and so will work for peanuts. Truth is, many of them are flying in a plane that really requires only one crew and the Captain has a single pilot PPC. They are, as one large operator told me...window dressing.
The college grads dont seem to understand this concept at all, and , for a lucky few, there are some charter operators who have a diversified fleet that allows some to move across to get PIC time..They are the minority.

I've known a few grads/ students/ associated aviatuers of university based flight colleges, and I'm baffled by the same fact. Before graduation, these fellas are so wound up about how qualified they are and how fast they're going succeed in fast tracking to the big leagues by flying co-joe here here and there that the long term benefit and personal satisfaction of bombing around in puddle jumpers for a couple years never crosses their mind. 'Who the hell would want to fly that thing that looks like a 172 with a funny tail and the wheels on backwards anyways?' Be damned if you can convince them that there's more money to be made in the short term flying the bush (...or at least there was).