Calling Prior to Entering an MF while IFR....?

[AuxBatOn]

Well, that Cranbrook accident highlights the need to call FSS with an updated ETA. It's the law for a reason (42 dead people in that accident) and there have been many instances I've been with centre until nearly at the FAF, or about 2 minutes until touchdown. You do what you like. I will still be calling radio 5 mintues prior regardless.

Center will be in contact will FSS to update your time anyways.

[Doc]

Center will be in contact will FSS to update your time anyways.[/quote]

Bingo

[grimey]

Center will be in contact will FSS to update your time anyways.

Most of the time. Not a knock against controllers, but they're human too, and often they'll have more critical things to deal with elsewhere in their airspace. The 5 minutes prior call is an added layer of protection. While I was working as an FSS, most of the time I didn't care if you called prior or not, because like you said, centre would update us if there was any change, and after getting radar, we cared even less since we could see you. And if you didn't call us, it was often because the controller was vectoring you to final, and was updating us every few minutes as to where you were and when you'd be there.

But not all stations have radar, and not all of those that are equipped with it have it down to ground level, circuit altitude, or even the 25 mile minimum safe altitude. More than once I've been passed an estimate from centre that was based on the aircraft's cruise speed at FL300 flying a direct track to the airport, and wasn't given an update due to workload on their part. And when that 737 slows down by 120kts or so 15 or 20 miles back and flies an arc or full procedure, it makes a hell of a difference in the time. I've also had pilots who were notoriously bad (and others who were very, very good) at estimating their time to landing if they had to factor an approach into it.

That said, the most of the incidents I've heard of relating to vehicle incursions with IFR aircraft have been due at least in part to an error on the part of a specialist or vehicle operator, not (solely) the pilots. Of the 5 most serious ones I'm immediately aware of (meaning they occured where I was working), one was weekend flyer who opted to land between vehicles on a portion of the runway that was notamed and marked closed. The others were caused at least in part by the specialist or vehicle operator not providing the vehicle as traffic and/or not removing it from the runway, forgetting that their was an aircraft landing/departing before authorizing a vehicle onto the runway, not contacting FSS prior to entering the runway, ignoring/confusing instructions, or not properly describing the closed portion of the runway (god, was that last one ever a gong show). Anyway, it's a required call, and the Cranbrook 737 crash is the possible result if you don't abide by it. Ignore the rules at your own peril, they're there for a reason. But as far as I was concerned, a call estimating in 30 minutes or 100nm back satisfied the 5 minutes prior rule. It's fairly useless to FSS as far as providing you with traffic, but it covers your ass if you don't call closer (not withstanding calls over any other required reporting points). I preferred that you call closer in, but it wasn't required by my interpretation of the CARs.

[AuxBatOn]

Most of the time. Not a knock against controllers, but they're human too, and often they'll have more critical things to deal with elsewhere in their airspace. The 5 minutes prior call is an added layer of protection. While I was working as an FSS, most of the time I didn't care if you called prior or not, because like you said, centre would update us if there was any change, and after getting radar, we cared even less since we could see you. And if you didn't call us, it was often because the controller was vectoring you to final, and was updating us every few minutes as to where you were and when you'd be there.

As I stated before, it's not always possible to update the FSS. When I can, I will do it. However controllers have to understand that if I do not do something, there is a reason, and it's most likely is because I'm single pilot IFR with no autopilot going fast with 1 VHF radio and I have to cut in the things I have to do. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. So, unless you have UHF or center clears me off freq before the 5 minute mark, I won't contact you before hand.

But not all stations have radar, and not all of those that are equipped with it have it down to ground level, circuit altitude, or even the 25 mile minimum safe altitude. More than once I've been passed an estimate from centre that was based on the aircraft's cruise speed at FL300 flying a direct track to the airport, and wasn't given an update due to workload on their part.

Personally, I'll do the same thing (give you my ETA based on current speeds), just because I have a limited amount of brain cell dedicated to tasks other than flying the aircraft and adhere to my clearance, and my kit gives me that time right in front of me. It usually is pretty close to the actual time anyways. Also I won't give you any other non-required calls unless you request it. I assume that if you want to know more, you'll ask. Otherwise, I'll concentrate on flying the aircraft.

[grimey]

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate

Yea. If you're not talking to FSS due to other workload, I'd rather you keep doing that than call my former coworkers and have your flight go to shit. And for the record, I never had a problem with any of the CF aircraft I dealt with (Griffons, Hornets, Hercs, and the Snowbirds). Only time I had any difficult at all with a military pilot was an American E-3 calling me up from too far away for his radio to be easily readable, looking for a weather update. And even then it wasn't bad, he was calling me looking for stuff, not the other way around. And the only problem was radio readability, which was probably my radio, not his.

Only thing that pissed me off about the hornet was that I was working the radios, so I couldn't go out and watch.

[Doc]

Good afternoon Chicago tower, it's twin beech CFABC checking in. We're still being vectored by center, after which we will be handed off to approach, estimating ORD in fifteen minutes. Go ahead your active runway, traffic and RSC report. Talk to on the hand off..........sound stupid enough for ya?
When I'm on center. I'm on center. When I leave center, I'll give you a call...

[Cobber]

Make up your mind Doc. Are you flying into an MF with an FSS (your first post) or into Chicago with a tower (your last post)? I'll go out on a limb and say they are a wee bit different. I always make the call going into an MF. The guys at the other end know about IFR and VFR traffic. Center doesn't know about any VFR traffic unless: a. they are transponder equipped; and b. they are in SSR coverage; or c. in primary coverage. In a lot of cases (ALOT) this isn't the case. Having said that, if the weather is IFR, then I think the call is redundant, but if I have jos and 2xC flying VFR at 85 then I can give you many examples of the FSS giving me a way better traffic picture than the center (not knocking center, they were either busy, or just didn't know about the traffic - remember, they only deal with IFR unless their workload permits). I think it is very unprofessional to decide yourself that the rules don't apply. If you think this actually warrants a change, then go to TC and lobby for a change.

Oh, and the A.N.C. argument - that holds in unusual situations or emergencies. If I can't do all that during normal flight ops, then I shouldn't be qualified to fly.

[Doc]

I don't need to call FSS for a better VFR picture. I can get that by simply monitoring the freq. I hear every call FSS hears. There is NO need to call FSS WHILE working center. The advantage is far out weighed by the disadvantage of missing calls from center.

BTW, the reference to KORD was tongue in cheek. You did get that fact, yes?

[KAFUFO]

your one lazy pilot

[AuxBatOn]

Oh, and the A.N.C. argument - that holds in unusual situations or emergencies. If I can't do all that during normal flight ops, then I shouldn't be qualified to fly.

Sorry, but that's pretty much SOP for me. I don't have much time to fiddle around with 1 VHF radio flying in at M.80 by myself with no autopilot (little math: 5 minutes prior entering the zone is roughly 45 miles before). I don't think center will let me go over that far (I actually asked many times with a big "no, we need you on this freq for descent). So, yes, I will ommit the 5 minutes call unless they are UHF capable.

[Doc]

[quote="KAFUFO"]your one lazy pilot[/quote

Couldn't be bothered tying up the airways with unnecessary transmissions. If that make me lazy. Yup. Your point is?
Shouldn't you be working on a ramp somewhere????

[W0XOF]

your one lazy pilot[/quote

Couldn't be bothered tying up the airways with unnecessary transmissions. If that make me lazy. Yup. Your point is?
Shouldn't you be working on a ramp somewhere????

Unnecessary? On the contrary, they're in the regs. Maybe you should be on a ramp somewhere if you think you're above the regs.

How come, JZA, PCO, NTA, GLR, KFA, WJA and many more have no problem making the call everytime?

[mattedfred]

Doc,

I believe that you have much to teach the younger generation of aviators that visit this forum. However, you have chosen to let some of their immaturity get the better of you much too often in my opinion. I suggest that you rise above the disrespectful comments and stick to expressing your opinion in a respectful manner once you have read and listened to what the previous poster has written. Anything less should be considered beneath you.

Respectfully,
Mattedfred

[W0XOF]

Doc,

I believe that you have much to teach the younger generation of aviators that visit this forum. However, you have chosen to let some of their immaturity get the better of you much too often in my opinion. I suggest that you rise above the disrespectful comments and stick to expressing your opinion in a respectful manner once you have read and listened to what the previous poster has written. Anything less should be considered beneath you.

Respectfully,
Mattedfred

Huh?? What forum has Doc's Granpa been reading?

[Doc]

Wondered how long it'd take you to weigh in WOXOF. This is something I'd like to be pulled out of the regs. Seriously. My check in and hand offs are most often (90% of the time, at least) within 2 minutes of each other. I heard Bearskin "check in" while we were inside the FAF. They were handed off before we landed. That's a total waste of time. It's a waste of your time as well WOXOF, not just mine.

Just so you know WOXOF, I hear you. Not everything in the regs is a good idea. We are regulated beyond reason at times. Too often "regs" are just a knee jerk reaction by some dweeb in Ottawa. Some are good ideas that save time and lives. Some are not.

[KAFUFO]

wern't you the one who said "the owner I fly for, doesn't want to die cause he wasen't willing to write a check."

what the @#$! are you doing at mach .80 with one VHF??????????????????????

[Doc]

wern't you the one who said "the owner I fly for, doesn't want to die cause he wasen't willing to write a check."

what the @#$! are you doing at mach .80 with one VHF??????????????????????

While I agree, one VHF is a little unusual. It's all that's required. Perhaps yet another "reg" that's not really a good idea?

Must have a GPWS and a CVR....but not a TCAS? Another absolute gem....

Single engine IFR departure limits the same as that of twin. Another one? They're out there....

[AuxBatOn]

what the @#$! are you doing at mach .80 with one VHF??????????????????????

That's what we're equiped with, we do not use VHF very often (on a day-to-day basis, probably never).

M0.8 is a pretty standard IFR speed when we travel, unless we go for range, then we slow down to 0.7..

[thatdaveguy]

I hope your first calls are at least reasonable, Doc. I've had cente erroneously hold an IFR on freq too long, resulting in the aircraft's first call on 5 mile final. That's way, way too late.

Have you read the mid air over Sioux Lookout? What would you suggest to prevent accidents like this? I'm honestly asking. A solution is the 5 minute rule. What would work better?

[W0XOF]

what the @#$! are you doing at mach .80 with one VHF??????????????????????

That's what we're equiped with, we do not use VHF very often (on a day-to-day basis, probably never).

M0.8 is a pretty standard IFR speed when we travel, unless we go for range, then we slow down to 0.7..

That's odd. Because every CF18, P3, Tutor, DHC5, EH10, CFC DHC8 has no problem making the call. We used to use the uniform freq lots until an incident in YBL about 10 yrs. ago.

Now, whether or not it is a useless call 95% of the time is another issue. However it is in the regs. Maybe they need to be changed. But until then, make the call.

[KAFUFO]

That's what we're equiped with, we do not use VHF very often (on a day-to-day basis, probably never).

M0.8 is a pretty standard IFR speed when we travel, unless we go for range, then we slow down to 0.7..

yea ya fly a challenger I understand they travel that fast. I'm just a little suprised after all how many transponders do you have? how many gps's do you have? how many set's of nav lights do you have? and why would everyone else who operates those types of A/C have two of each?

[Doc]

I hope your first calls are at least reasonable, Doc. I've had cente erroneously hold an IFR on freq too long, resulting in the aircraft's first call on 5 mile final. That's way, way too late.

Have you read the mid air over Sioux Lookout? What would you suggest to prevent accidents like this? I'm honestly asking. A solution is the 5 minute rule. What would work better?

Don't tell anybody, but if it looks like center is keeping us till 10 miles or so out, one of us makes the call, while the other turns off that radio and stays with center. But generally, the hand off is at least 20 miles out, or still to high to be a conflict with VFR traffic. And, the other IFR, we already know about.

Your second point about the mid air. While tragic, I can't see how having even more irrelevant vocal gibberish on the radios would have prevented it? There is SO much totally irrelevant CRAP constantly transmitted in that particular MF now. Ever notice, that while everybody is talking, you don't hear anybody? Until only relevant traffic is handed to aircraft, the whole thing is just "swinging at windmills" because that's what the CARS wants us to do. When an aircraft is inbound from the south, he has NO need to know about the north bound departures....but he gets them. When we do "check in" we're told about the guy on final, the guy clearing at the end.......etc.

Just a thought daveguy, but if more treated center like a departure frequency, and called as soon as feasible after take off, say, out of 2500 feet, rather than staying with the MF for the full five miles (especially when IMC) center would have more time to deal with inbound conflicts. I think leveling at your initial assigned altitude and then calling center, after saying good bye to the MF is poor airmanship. You're on an IFR clearance, get on with it. Get radar identified, and a) continue your climb when cleared. b) let the guy behind you launch because center can now release him.

I'd really like to see YXL get a tower. Runways at that airport need to be assigned. Clearing at the end of 34 should be SOP. That whole airport is like a school play ground. Some FSS "controlled" airports have less traffic than YPM, and I just know they are paid by the word....but Sioux Lookout NEEDS to have a tower.

[thatdaveguy]

I hope your first calls are at least reasonable, Doc. I've had cente erroneously hold an IFR on freq too long, resulting in the aircraft's first call on 5 mile final. That's way, way too late.

Have you read the mid air over Sioux Lookout? What would you suggest to prevent accidents like this? I'm honestly asking. A solution is the 5 minute rule. What would work better?

Don't tell anybody, but if it looks like center is keeping us till 10 miles or so out, one of us makes the call, while the other turns off that radio and stays with center. But generally, the hand off is at least 20 miles out, or still to high to be a conflict with VFR traffic. And, the other IFR, we already know about.

Your second point about the mid air. While tragic, I can't see how having even more irrelevant vocal gibberish on the radios would have prevented it? There is SO much totally irrelevant CRAP constantly transmitted in that particular MF now. Ever notice, that while everybody is talking, you don't hear anybody? Until only relevant traffic is handed to aircraft, the whole thing is just "swinging at windmills" because that's what the CARS wants us to do. When an aircraft is inbound from the south, he has NO need to know about the north bound departures....but he gets them. When we do "check in" we're told about the guy on final, the guy clearing at the end.......etc.

Just a thought daveguy, but if more treated center like a departure frequency, and called as soon as feasible after take off, say, out of 2500 feet, rather than staying with the MF for the full five miles (especially when IMC) center would have more time to deal with inbound conflicts. I think leveling at your initial assigned altitude and then calling center, after saying good bye to the MF is poor airmanship. You're on an IFR clearance, get on with it. Get radar identified, and a) continue your climb when cleared. b) let the guy behind you launch because center can now release him.

I'd really like to see YXL get a tower. Runways at that airport need to be assigned. Clearing at the end of 34 should be SOP. That whole airport is like a school play ground. Some FSS "controlled" airports have less traffic than YPM, and I just know they are paid by the word....but Sioux Lookout NEEDS to have a tower.

Well first of all, the FSS is not supposed to be passing non-pertinent traffic. You have your facts incorrect. So I don't really believe radio is telling you stores about traffic departing opposite direction to where you are coming from. I also don't believe radio is telling you about traffic exiting the runway when you're still 10+ miles back. If they are, then they are in error and not following our MANOPS... and I'd understand why you'd be annoyed.

Generally checking in with me is a 10 second affair unless I need you. Runway, wind, altimeter, and RELEVANT traffic. If I got nothin, you go back to centre and we're all satisfied in 10 seconds or less.

Why are you levelling off at your assigned altitude before contacting centre? You can call them the second you're clear of the MF and get your further clearance. Some pilots call before they are even clear of the zone on the second radio, that's no issue.

But to your last point, YXL will never have a tower. Last I checked, movements were around 35,000 for YXL which is almost half the required for a tower. Sorry. There has been discussion floating around in the company for decades for allowing FSS to assign runways. Unfortunately this hasn't really gone anywhere. I think it'd solve a lot of problems at busier FSS.

[Doc]

Well first of all, the FSS is not supposed to be passing non-pertinent traffic. You have your facts incorrect. So I don't really believe radio is telling you stores about traffic departing opposite direction to where you are coming from. I also don't believe radio is telling you about traffic exiting the runway when you're still 10+ miles back. If they are, then they are in error and not following our MANOPS... and I'd understand why you'd be annoyed.

Generally checking in with me is a 10 second affair unless I need you. Runway, wind, altimeter, and RELEVANT traffic. If I got nothin, you go back to centre and we're all satisfied in 10 seconds or less.

Why are you levelling off at your assigned altitude before contacting centre? You can call them the second you're clear of the MF and get your further clearance. Some pilots call before they are even clear of the zone on the second radio, that's no issue.

But to your last point, YXL will never have a tower. Last I checked, movements were around 35,000 for YXL which is almost half the required for a tower. Sorry. There has been discussion floating around in the company for decades for allowing FSS to assign runways. Unfortunately this hasn't really gone anywhere. I think it'd solve a lot of problems at busier FSS.

Well, first off, I get passed irrelevant traffic every time I fly. I sure as hell don not have my "facts" incorrect. I' don't make this shit up! We really DO hear about guys on final when we're ten miles out. We really do hear about north bounds when we're inbound from the south.
I do NOT level or wait till I'm clear before contacting center...but many do. Actually, most do.
When I call 40 miles back, FSS requests I call 20 or 10 back for traffic updates. WHAT traffic updates? I hear everything the FSS station hears....
It always amazes me that when I "check in" I get traffic that doesn't matter, winds and altimeter (which I have from center) RSC report.....but never do they bother to mention the ceiling has come down to 400 feet, or the vis has dropped to a mile......boggles my mind.

[AuxBatOn]

That's odd. Because every CF18, P3, Tutor, DHC5, EH10, CFC DHC8 has no problem making the call. We used to use the uniform freq lots until an incident in YBL about 10 yrs. ago.

Now, whether or not it is a useless call 95% of the time is another issue. However it is in the regs. Maybe they need to be changed. But until then, make the call.

All these types have an autopilot and/or a second crew. I do not have that luxury. I will NOT sacrifice the aviate and navigate part to do a call that even YOU say is useless.

All right you tell me, how am I supposed to do the call if :

1- I only have 1 VHF radio
2- I'm by myself (ie: no backseater or wingman)
3- Center doesn't let me off frequency

??

yea ya fly a challenger I understand they travel that fast. I'm just a little suprised after all how many transponders do you have? how many gps's do you have? how many set's of nav lights do you have? and why would everyone else who operates those types of A/C have two of each?

I have 1 transponder, 1 set of nav lights, 1 GPS (that I do not have control over, completely blended with the INS, which is NOT IFR certified).

The difference between the other types of aircraft is the role. Those other types are designed to bring passengers from point A to point B. We are not. Theferore, they are more suited to fly IFR than we are.

Well first of all, the FSS is not supposed to be passing non-pertinent traffic. You have your facts incorrect.

What is revelant for YOU may not be revelant to ME at all. Yes, FSS comm jammed me a few times.

I will do my best to do the 5 minutes call, as long as I have the brain cells to think about it (in normal condition I should) and if Center let me off his frequency early enough so I can do it. Otherwise, I will not. If you want to write me up, go right ahead. Some of my friends have been written up for that and guess what happenned? Nada. Because the guy at the other end of this write up is actually someone that has experience as a fast jet aircrew and knows that it's not always possible.