Buying your own plane to train in?

[taxiway_matthew]

Can anyone divulge deeper for me the aspects of buying your own plane and training on it? I've heard it suggested a couple times on here, but how much can it really save me, with fuel, parking, insurance, main., instructor, etc? I'm planning on doing the whole she-bang PPL and beyond...I can see it helping in the hour build up to the CPL pre-req, but then again there's the issue of the MEIFR which will be an additional $9-11k. Can anyone who's gone this route expand on it for me, how much it could end up costing me, etc, with let's say a C150?

Much appreciated.

[MyMeowCat]

I'd be careful about that. I went to this one place, took the ground school but because of an instructor shortage hardly got to fly at all --- the place was way too busy.

There was a guy who sat next to me in ground school who actually went into a partnership with his pilot buddy and bought a plane 50/50 before signing up at this FTU. The ground school was terrible, instruction was mediocre at best if you even get in and he ended up not getting his license.

You'll have to find your own free-lance instructor as well.

You also have to maintain it as well --- including overhauling the engine every so many hours with a AME at their shop (Not a do-it-yourself thing).

Anyone know what the situation is these days with instructor shortages ... I thnk it was fairly acute not too long ago.

[I Я Instructor]

TBO for a 150 is 1800 hours I believe... privately owned aircraft can fly indefinably past the TBO as long as the engine is working within limits.

Hanger space availability varies from airport to airport, as do the costs.

Class 3 or better instructors are a dime a dozen. You can work out a deal where you will end up paying less money than going to a flight school, while the instructor will get double what he gets working for an FTU.

What I would do is hang out at the airport and/or get someone on here to point you to an instructor in your area. Sit down with him/her and see if you can come up with some kind of arrangement. Also, I would probably suggest finding someone who already owns an aircraft and sub-lease it from them.... it will save you a bunch of pain.

A couple things to consider: If you buy an aircraft after February, you will have to dish out a pretty penny to get a 406 ELT. Most 150's are not designed to fly on AvGas. You may have to get a mogas STC (if it's not on one already) and fill it up yourself as most airports don't really sell car gas.
You'll have to find a good mechanic who you can trust. As an owner you'll be able to do a lot of work yourself but if you don't know what you're doing you may end up getting into something that is way over your head.

[niss]

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=28813

I havent posted very often but there is alot of info on my blog www.cfubc.blogspot.com with regards to maintenance costs etc.

Local flight schools in southern ontario wanted 50-65/hr for instructing on privately owned. I managed to get myself a wicked Class 1 for 50/hr. Instructor shortage made it hard to find freelancers so I didn't really squawk.

Hope this stuff helps!

[Hedley]

Buying an airplane is like getting married. If you
get a good one, it's going to be great. If you
get a bad one, it's going to be Hell.

There are a million things you need to learn,
to successfully own, maintain and operate your
own aircraft.

Obviously, doing this without some expert
advice can be very, very expensive.

Two airplanes which look the same from
outside, can be very different "inside". For
example, one might have a worn-out
engine, airframe corrosion, and bad
avionics. But it might have a shiny paint
job, which ensures that it will sell fast,
for a high price.

Here's my one piece of advice:

DO NOT BUY A PAINT JOB

Aircraft owners always, always take the
shiny aircraft, regardless of what problems
it may have. A shiny paint job is like large
breasts for some guys - they just can't
stop fixating.

I would far prefer to buy an aircraft with
a recent factory reman engine, updated
avionics, low airframe time ... and a horrible,
peeling, faded, original paint job. I can get
an aircraft painted easy and cheap, compared
to a new engine, new avionics, etc. It's
also hard to drop 10,000 hours off the
total airframe time!

[KAG]

A couple things to consider: If you buy an aircraft after February, you will have to dish out a pretty penny to get a 406 ELT. Most 150's are not designed to fly on AvGas. You may have to get a mogas STC (if it's not on one already) and fill it up yourself as most airports don't really sell car gas.
.

Correct me if I'm wrong but most 150's are certified to use 80/87 and 100LL. It's been a decade but I do remember always filling up with 100LL.

[Hedley]

Sure, it's legal to run a buck fifty on 100LL but
be warned that after a while, the lead in the gas
will cause lead salt deposits to gum up the exhaust
valve guides, resulting in sticking valves

Problem with mogas is that you never know
what you're getting. It sure does help the
winter starts, though.

[Shiny Side Up]

Have a pre-purchase inspection done. Don't buy a paintjob is right. At the very least take a good look at the logs and have a talk with who's done the maintenance on it the last few inspections - then have someone else do the pre-purchase inspection.

Most of the 150s I know of are run on a mix of avgas and mogas - usually depending on where the operator has acces to fuel - the avgas in the mix does give them a bit better performance at altitude (if you're running out of places with 4000' + field elevation) I haven't seen no problems with any of them based on the fuel they use.

Personally I like the 150s more than the 152s for conducting training, the seats are nicer.

[MichaelP]

The 150 does have the better engine, and my experience showed that the O-200 survived 100LL much better than the much older O-235 design... (The O-235 still has tappets that have to be set, and Lycoming has always mucked about with the metalurgy!).

Always budget at least 15% over and above what you are buying the aeroplane for. The cheaper the aeroplane the greater the contingency fund should be.

I had the choice of three aircraft of the same type. One had few airframe hours but had a few mods I didn't need, I'm down to two... G AWAT was the smartest of the two, but something didn't feel quite right. G AWEI felt good, and so I bought her for 2,650 GBP.
I de-sozzeled the engine (had not flown for four years), put in a battery and fresh fuel and oil and flew it out of a farmer's field.
Back at base the inspector condemned the fabric in two wing panels... Patch it? No, do the job properly, I recovered the wings in cotton, put a red white and blue sunburst on them, and painted the fuselage red white and blue. Bought a new Becker radio and fitted it, took the dynamo to an automotive shop who did a superb overhaul, and I had the prettiest Condor in the country... Everyone wanted to fly it... Paint job!

G AWAT? A group bought her, she ran 200 hours and then the engine had to be overhauled. Mine on the other hand with similar hours ran through to 2,160 hours, I made full use of the 10% plus 10% extension I was allowed on a Public Transport CofA. I love that O-200 engine.

There's a Jodel for sale at Delta for $10K, now that's my sort of aeroplane... Anyone for shares?

Buying an aeroplane to train in can be an economical route, and is an education in itself...
A complete reliable aeroplane has a price. You may be lucky and get something cheaper and as good... But unlikely.
Be prepared to fork out some money and effort to fix it.
With a few exceptions, in general, Canadian aeroplanes are poorly maintained.
Canadians ask the same money or more than the Americans for their aeroplanes, but I have done pre-purchases on both Canadian and American aircraft, and IMHO many Canadian vendors are dreamers.
Yes they often have the bills to prove their expenditures on maintenance, but many aeroplanes sit and sit and sit, someone's dream gone bad.
Buy an aeroplane that has flown a lot of hours in recent times. Aeroplanes that fly all the time are more reliable.
Don't buy an engine that is on condition, you'll always be worried.

Buy the Jodel above and expect to spend some money on it... Good paintwork, needs radios and transponder, has an O-290 in it (I'd prefer an O-200), and is homebuilt. But the Jodel is one of the most efficient aeroplanes ever built. I have a lot of hours crossing Europe in factory built - certified Jodels (with O-200's, 105 KTAS easy, three adults 1050, or 1,000 miles D150 using the O-200).

I'm not wishing to change this thread, but if you buy your own aeroplane you have a lot more choice to purchase something that can serve you better after the PPL is done.
The Cessna 150 is good, but there are other choices.

Here's Jodel G ATLB in which I have flown many happy hours, note three adults and 24 Imp gallons behind an O-200. Some aeroplanes really perform:


Here's the D150 Mascaret 8.8 Imp Gal wing tanks and 23.9 Imp Gal fuselage tank, 1,000 miles range. Michael learned a lot about flying in G AVEF... I have many stories to tell.

[Old Dog Flying]

With a few exceptions, in general, Canadian aeroplanes are poorly maintained.
Canadians ask the same money or more than the Americans for their aeroplanes, but I have done pre-purchases on both Canadian and American aircraft, and IMHO many Canadian vendors are dreamers.

If you believe this bull shit...well...the general feeling is that they are better maintained than Michael's car....

Go to a reputable AMO who regularly services the type that you want to buy and get a pre-purchase inspection. Also go to TCCA's website and download the AD's for the type, then cross-check them against the log book to see that everything has been complied with. Spending a few hundred dollars in this way will save many thousands later...after the bill of sale changes hands.

As for wooden homebuilts that reside on the very soggy west coast...stay away from them...unless they have been hangared since birth and the builder has a good reputation. There are a couple of termite havens at Delta Air Park that are not in my opinion worth more than firewood.

And I repeat what others have said...Don't buy a shiny paint job!

[MichaelP]

the general feeling is that they are better maintained than Michael's car

Michael doesn't have a car!
I ride a bicycle to work and I try to keep the chain well oiled.
Second hand cars in Canada are not that good either... In Vancouver area there's a lot of right hand drive second hand Japanese cars on the road, so what's wrong with buying locally?
In the UK cars have to pass an MOT inspection every year, and second hand cars were 2/3 the price of equivalent Canadian vehicles while being in better mechanical condition.
I am considering buying a car in December, but it's one hell of an expense!
How would I be able to takeoff for Thailand like this if I had a car to maintain and the ICBC extortion to pay?

I think Barney maintains his aeroplane very well, and the AA1 is another aeroplane one might consider buying.

I agree about Delta Airpark too, and would whizz that Jodel out of there so fast...
It was rebuilt a few years ago and I think Jon did a very good job.

I kept the Cessna 120 at Delta until I saw the salt film on it one morning. A few hours later it was parked at Langley where the rain is cleaner.

[E-Flyer]

Can anyone divulge deeper for me the aspects of buying your own plane and training on it? I've heard it suggested a couple times on here, but how much can it really save me, with fuel, parking, insurance, main., instructor, etc? I'm planning on doing the whole she-bang PPL and beyond...I can see it helping in the hour build up to the CPL pre-req, but then again there's the issue of the MEIFR which will be an additional $9-11k. Can anyone who's gone this route expand on it for me, how much it could end up costing me, etc, with let's say a C150?

Much appreciated.

A buddy of mine bought a C150... and I can tell you you will learn a LOT but also pay a lot for your mistakes. If you have the budget to learn about owning an airplane as well as flight training, then buy all means it's a great experience.

I normally find that the beginner aircraft owner ends up spending close to what they would have spent for renting an aircraft in their training; the only difference is that when you rent you won't have to deal with the ownership of the plane haha.

Cheers

[LOW BURNER]

I bought a cherokee in NOv 06 when i had "zero" yup zero flying time. Things have worked out very well for me. The engine had low time, prop was good, insurance cheap. I worked full time and trained part time. Took me untill july of 08 to get my private. Not fast enough for me so I quit my job in september sold my house and trained pretty much full time. If all goes as planned will be finished my MIFR in a month or so and will be a certified 200 hour wonder. Got to learn alot about airplanes. Had a local class one instructor train me for my private licence weekends and evenings. Got to learn from somebody with 6000 hours not 600. I am flying back and forth to a FTU unit about an hour away from where i live as there is no local FTU. Get to build my cross country time on the way to school and back every day. Fly when i please where i please. Now im broke so the aircraft is being sold as soon as i finish training. Depending on what I get on the sale I will have my commercial MIFR and less than $5000.00 Debt. I have a wife two kids im 25 years old and I dont have I lifetime of debt to pay down. The only thing i can recomend is trying to hustle someone to partner up with you. It makes the repair bills a lot easier to handle. Feel free to ask any questions.

[metal]

But now you have no house, no job, and a wife and kids? >__>

[LOW BURNER]

Was going to have to sell the house to go find a job anyway. Didnt care much for the place. Not much bigger than an apartment. I tried to sell the wife and kids. No takers. The job made sure I could only fly weekends and evenings...if the weather was good and I didnt get called in. Made my decisions to get me where I wanted to be, Flying. No regrets...at least not yet. Let me know if you want to put an offer in on the family. They come as a set.

[sheephunter]

In these economic times I find it hard to beleive that you cannot purchase a C150, find a real good freelance instructor and come out way ahead.... as long as you just want a license and not a job in aviation. By the time things finally turn around your plane might still be worth what you paid if not more. Can't see these prices going down forever?? Saw a C182 advertised for $32K the other day. Not a training machine, but sure wish I was in the market. And FYI I bought not the best training airplane, but what I was going to be flying for a while (PA-32-300) and trained in it. As a low timer I needed 25 hours dual in it to get insurance which was fine as I needed the hours anyway during my PPL and went right through to CPL with it and then worked it for about 300 hrs after and sold it for 15K more than I paid which likely covered my maintenance costs and more for the 3 years I had it not to mention the 300hrs work I wasn't paying someone else to do. Still, no hard core costs on the C150 operation which someone here has to know what their 150 costs per hour averaged over the past 2-3 years. Regardless what you fly you will pay gas, insurance, hangar, maintenance and everything else. It might be in a cheque made out to the FTU, but you are paying it plus your share of the coffee, air conditioning, cutting the grass and so on. If you are are thinking about owning an aircraft after you finish, do it now. Doesn't matter when but you will have to learn and quite often by your mistake which can sometimes be expensive. Just be careful and keep your eyes and ears open. For the past 5 years my C180 has cost about $3500.00 for the annual which is largely related to one ongoing issue which hopefully is now finally resolved which should drop it down to about $2500.00 next year plus the cost of a windscreen which is in need strictly because of the mistake I made of putting a windsheild cover on it one winter and the movement of the wind over it combined with a little bit of dust rubbing made it bad. Again, learning. Sorry for carrying on here, and how are things going Low Burner? Wife and kids still up for grabs?

[Old Dog Flying]

Sheephunter: With regards to your windshield problem...generally the scratches can be removed from the plexiglas with a bit of effort and at little cost. I have used 600 grit wet sand paper to remove the worst scratches followed by 1500 then 2000 grit wet paper then Novus #3 then Novus #2 plastic polishes. The Novus product can be gotten from any plastic shop or marine parts shop.

If you think that you'll be replacing the windshield why not give this a try.

Barney

[sheephunter]

Barney, I just copied your suggestion. It is definitely worth a try B4 I order a new one. Thanks.

[sheephunter]

Oh Yeah.... still listening & learning.

[Airflow]

Keep in mind by purchasing your own a/c for training and time building towards your cpl, you will not get a T2202 (tax tuition receipt). In this, case you would get this form if you hiered the instructor from the FTU and you only get the amount you paid for the instructor as the write off. However, if you rented and paid for the instructor (all through the FTU), then that's the amount that would show up on the T2202.

I'm all for owning your own plane as you don't have to put up with the hassles of renting, but it doesn't come without a price!

[E-Flyer]

Can anyone divulge deeper for me the aspects of buying your own plane and training on it? I've heard it suggested a couple times on here, but how much can it really save me, with fuel, parking, insurance, main., instructor, etc? I'm planning on doing the whole she-bang PPL and beyond...I can see it helping in the hour build up to the CPL pre-req, but then again there's the issue of the MEIFR which will be an additional $9-11k. Can anyone who's gone this route expand on it for me, how much it could end up costing me, etc, with let's say a C150?

Much appreciated.

Do you have a lot of reserve money? cause I find that when you do something for the first time, you'll most likely end up paying a lot of dollars for the lack of research and mistakes or misunderstandings !

If you do, have at it. You'll probably stay an owner for much longer after your training I don't know, girls love it when you own planes.

[_dwj_]

Here are some figures based on my experience of owning a 1960 C172 for a year and flying 50 hrs/yr:

fuel (mogas @ 0.70/l): $18/hr, or $32/hr if paying $1.21/l for avgas
insurance: $30/hr
maintenance: $30/hr
engine fund: $20/hr

So in total it works out around $100/hr. The more hours you fly the cheaper the insurance will be per hr. And if you have a hangar that will add a few hundred dollars a month.

If you want cheap, go for a C150. 2 seats and lower hull value means cheaper insurance, and you can pick one up for under $15k.

Bear in mind that when you buy a 40+ year old plane things WILL break every year and need replacing. My annual inspection cost $500, but it was another $1200 to replace an exhaust valve, and I need to replace the pilot seat rail soon which will be a few hundred $. Looking at the logs there is usually at least $500 to replace something each year (engine mounts one year, spark plugs another year, etc.)

So owning a plane isn't cheap, but as long as you don't get a complete basket case it should work out cheaper than renting and it's a hell of a lot less hassle.

Right now is a good time to buy because prices are so low, and I suspect they will go back up again in the near future now that the Canadian dollar is worth less and the economy is on the verge of recovery. I was thinking of selling my plane, but I'm going to wait until I can get a decent price for it. But if you can find an owner who really needs to sell, you can get a pretty good deal right now. But just be careful you are actually getting a deal and not a cheap rust bucket.

[Doc]

Dew it.

[LOW BURNER]

SheepHunter

Doing very well. Finished up all my requirements for my commercial licence and getting ready for the real world. Not sure im going to remember how to work again. The Cherokee and the wife and kids can all be purchased at a price. I can arrange shipping but its gonna be a bundle.

On a forum related note found out you can save a load on repair bills if you show up with a case of beer for your ame and show up with cash to pay your bills. Not recommending anything illegal. Show up with the beer after the repairs have been done. A guy I know was asking why anyone would get a pilots licence and not buy their own aircraft. I have to agree with him. Try to upgrade and clean things up every year. Does not have to be big things. New Windscreen ($150.00), some used instruments that are in better shape than yours.
Best part is your airplane always wants to go for a ride....women....not so much

Sorry for the disjointed thought. Christmas party was a little rough last night.

Good luck