The Dumbing Down of Aviation

[MichaelP]

'Who the hell would want to fly that thing that looks like a 172 with a funny tail and the wheels on backwards anyways?

Life emphasis... It's all about the career and earning a living.
I grew up to know the fun of building model aeroplanes and crashing them.
I learned to fly for the fun of it and it kept me sane.

I would love to see kids pitch up at Boundary Bay on their bicycles to watch aeroplanes. This is an extremely rare occurence these days.
Now I pitch up on my bike to work, but I used to cycle around Dorval as a teenager.

the student would push the mixtures full rich at the start of the approach

This unfortunately comes from TC.
One of their inspectors insisted that I put the mixture full rich for a descent! He claimed that a friend of his had an accident through not having the mixture full rich.
You only need richer mixture when you apply power at the bottom of your descent!
But we're supposed to be teaching idiots to fly and they might be so stupid as to not notice the roughness if you forget to enrichen the mixture.

No problem with the Rotax 912 it leans itself at all times!

I think that if there's any dumbing down it's rote, and procedure without thought.

[Liquid Charlie]

I'm not sure that there is an intentional "dumbing down" - it's like anything else -- things change. New Generations arrive - ideas change and there is the perception of improvement. Hopefully there actually is. Each generation in this industry saw changes. My generation the buzz was turbine experience - then came "glass" to GPS to FMS - SMS -- what's coming in the future - who knows but 50 years from now aviation will have a very different look and that generation will be having the same basic conversations and the rolls will be flip flopped - today's newbie will be the "old fart" - time marches on and some just don't want to get on the band wagon while other embrace it -- I suspect that is what is commonly called "human nature"

[Cat Driver]

today's newbie will be the "old fart" - time marches on and some just don't want to get on the band wagon while other embrace it -- I suspect that is what is commonly called "human nature"

Interesting comments.

What bandwagon are you describing L.C.?

[Liquid Charlie]

Well Cat -- I meant that I have encountered a few -- well likely more than a few in this profession who will not embrace change and progress - I admit it -- I'm a gadget freak (as I suspect you are since you are trying to peddle several PDA's ) -- I like my technology and keep an open mind for change and yes "the good old days" were fun and an adventure but when you look back at the shit that went on -- what we took for standard ops and really no point in talking about it because most of this generation would simply call "bullshit" - we were a more independent group then and needed to be but my era (as was yours) was still nothing to the ones that proceeded us -- from Wop May, Harold Farrington and that time of the Elliot Brothers and the Gold rush in Red Lake where they charged $1 per pound as passenger fare from Hudson to Red - look what we have today -- damn -- the people are just as young now and just as inexperienced as we were when we started -- but I don't know about you but I had mentors -- they kicked my ass when they saw me being stupid -- if anything is missing today it's the mentors - small companies never keep people that long now and once you move on to larger companies and bigger equipment people could care less about helping the "new guy" - shut her down and drain her and go home - that's maybe the thing I miss the most is the camaraderie of the past days -

Holy shit -- where that BS come from --

[timbuck]

LC, out of the 153 replies on this topic you have the best one,
very well said my friend.

[Cat Driver]

look what we have today -- damn -- the people are just as young now and just as inexperienced as we were when we started -- but I don't know about you but I had mentors -- they kicked my ass when they saw me being stupid -- if anything is missing today it's the mentors -

Without them I probably would not have survived L.C.

[iflyforpie]

LC, out of the 153 replies on this topic you have the best one,
very well said my friend.

+1. I'm fortunate to have a couple good mentors here where I work.

[Flying Nutcracker]

yes, the cost of flight training would skyrocket if instructors were paid better and experienced pilots were sought for the positions

What a thought.....

Here we are... forking out a fortune to obtain an underpaid career! Only to be spit out into the real world where everybody complains that your standards are dumbing down...

Mentors... I've said it before and I'll say it again; fixing the problem requires stepping up!



Doc, see what you've started?!?!?

[planett]

Mentors need to have some incentive to hang around.

[MichaelP]

Today's report.

We had a dusting of snow here in the Lower Mainland, not quite enough for declaring a state of emergency but close

The ATIS (F) had the winds at 040 10G15.

I had a phone call. Another school was only allowing dual flights even for well qualified CPL holders. But dual was not possible because the weather limits were beyond their instructors limits.
We'll have another renter joining us...

There was a fair amount of windshear, what a perfect day to hone one's skills.

We flew. Pro flew, CFC flew, and a Citabria from Delta Air Park flew in for circuits.

If there's dumbing down its with schools that breed instructors with fear who teach pilots who are then licenced with no experience of rain or wind.
Is this safe?
Dumbing down?

Today I flew with one of my instructors... We are all better for the experience.

[Cat Driver]

Soon your concerns will be no longer needed Michael as there will be new " Protect the dumbed down " rules.

Under these new rules when winds get that viscous and dangerous all flying training will be banned.

So cheer up and quit worrying about a trend that you can't stop.

Have you seen the help wanted add in Avcanada where they are looking for a TC inspector?

Great pay.

Great hours ( note I did not use the word " working " )

Exceptional perks.

Guaranteed job protection regardless how dumbed down you are.

Home every night.

When you can't beat them why not just join them?

[Doc]

Today's report.


The ATIS (F) had the winds at 040 10G15.

I had a phone call. Another school was only allowing dual flights even for well qualified CPL holders. But dual was not possible because the weather limits were beyond their instructors limits.

You have got to be kidding. You ARE kidding.....right?

Aviation is doomed.....

[Hedley]

winds at 10G15 ... beyond their instructors limits

You have to be kidding. I send student pilots solo in 10 gusting 15.

I watched approvingly on Saturday as one of my student pilots
(in a tailwheel aircraft, of course - I don't teach ab initio on nosewheel)
was doing circuits with a crosswind from the left, touching down only
the left main tire, in a beautiful one-wheel landing, then applying power
and taking off again - the right main and tailwheel never touched
the ground

I refuse to believe that those instructors do not have the hands and
feet of a competent student pilot.

[MichaelP]

Not kidding... I wish I was, I really wish I was.

I've had pilots from there asking if we can fly in rain...

Yesterday was perfect for "Illusions created by drift". I wonder how people are trained for this exercise.

I had my instructor do steep turns on a right downwind... It was a left hand circuit but there were two other aircraft in the circuit (the Citabria and a Warrior) so I requested a right hand one to do these turns.
Many instructors are brought up as PPLs to think steep turns should only be done above 2,000 feet. Fine when you are learning, but a CPL should be able to handle the aeroplane safely in a steep turn below 2,000 feet.

[Cat Driver]

Fine when you are learning, but a CPL should be able to handle the aeroplane safely in a steep turn below 2,000 feet.

The more I read this stuff the more astonished I become by what I am reading.

Do you mean a bank angle of over 60 degrees at fifty feet?

What is a steep bank in the language of training?

[MichaelP]

45 degrees!

When I learned to fly it was 60 degrees, but this was to show that the rudder began to become an elevator... There's always a little top rudder required in our little aeroplanes in a sixty degree bank.

I think that an accurate forty five degree bank turn is more difficult than a sixty degree one. You are at it longer.

Do you mean a bank angle of over 60 degrees at fifty feet?

No, that's for Hedley!

[Cat Driver]

I think that an accurate forty five degree bank turn is more difficult than a sixty degree one. You are at it longer.

Jeses F'n suffering Chreist in sandals, the objective of profficiency in steep turns is to be able to do a steep turn accurately and be able to maintain the turn as long as you want......isn't it??

[Flying Nutcracker]

I do a minimum 2 turns at 60 degrees just to make sure I can do it hands and feet off before I do something else... but I digress!

Is it because of money makers of the legal kind that aviation is dumbing down, then!??! Seems to me that noone wants to be responsible for paying a lawsuit expense anymore, so schools are limiting their instructors and students to CAVOK and calm winds... OR... is it the LAW that TC departments are laying down that is impeding the natural birth of new aviators???


hmmm.... maybe Cat has a point after all in this...???

[Cat Driver]

hmmm.... maybe Cat has a point after all in this...???

Having owned a flight school twenty five years ago and tried to get an O.C. for another one seven years ago I couldn't believe the abject stupidity of the flight training inspectors I had to deal with during the process...I would give some examples but most here would not believe me.

I still have trouble believing anyone that stupid could actually hold a job anywhere and be allowed to bully their moronic ideas into the system.

[Doc]

Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever!

I don't suffer fools lightly. Never have. Just can't.

Cat, when I instructed, we had some really good support from the guys at TC. Had an inspector by the name of Bruce Carter. A true gentleman. Another fine specimen of humanity within the ranks was Martin Brayman. There used to be some pretty good chaps in TC. Don't know where Bruce went. Martin went south in a thirty-six foot sailboat. A man after our hearts.

[Cat Driver]

For sure the type of people we had some decades ago were far different from a lot of today's types.

Remember when they would come to the airport on their days off so we could get our check rides done when we were in Montreal or Toronto and they could fly the things because they were from the industry.

[Strega]

Jeses F'n suffering Chreist in sandals, the objective of profficiency in steep turns is to be able to do a steep turn accurately and be able to maintain the turn as long as you want......isn't it??

Cat,

In todays "left wing" TCCA, the objective of the "steep turn" is to pass the requirments of the "steep turn" on the flight test. Why would anyone want to fly a co-ordinated, level steep turn, at less than 2000'

[just curious]

from Wop May, Harold Farrington and that time of the Elliot Brothers and the Gold rush in Red Lake where they charged $1 per pound as passenger fare from Hudson to Red - look what we have today -- damn -- the people are just as young now and just as inexperienced as we were when we started -- but I don't know about you but I had mentors -- they kicked my ass when they saw me being stupid -- if anything is missing today it's the mentors - small companies never keep people that long now and once you move on to larger companies and bigger equipment people could care less about helping the "new guy" - shut her down and drain her and go home - that's maybe the thing I miss the most is the camaraderie of the past days -

Holy shit -- where that BS come from --

Could have come from the Legion. Last time I was there with Al MacNeill we were on about it. I at least had him and Stormin' Norman, along with visits to Harold F when I was courtin' Mrs Curious at the Manor.

[Invertago]

Incidently Doc, on many occasions I have asked how many instructors use a camcorder while flight training, so far no one has said they do.

Why don't they when it is one of the best training aids a flight instructor can use?

And they have the audacity to suggest I am stone age in my training methods.

It can be hard enough to get a student to hanger fly an airplane, why tape a lesson they wouldn't take home to watch. We're in a cheese burger society, here is my money I want my burger, I don't want to have to work to put it together myself. Would anyone buy the build it yourself McCheese burger... they want it ready done and they want it cheap even if it is crap food. 95% of students want to pay for the minimum and pass a flight test.

I have the camera and the mount (I used it to tape my own lessons for my own benefit in the past), it is pretty simple affordable technology these days. However won't go out of my way to tape a students lesson if they can't be bothered to hanger fly an aircraft as I keep insisting. My effort to teach them will mirror their effort to learn. Most people could get a 45 hour license if they did the ground prep, but why should I hold their hand and work my ass off when they won't lift a finger.

[Cat Driver]

You do not seem to have understood why I use a camcorder Invertigo, so let me explain it in more detail.

It can be hard enough to get a student to hanger fly an airplane, why tape a lesson they wouldn't take home to watch.

I don't tape it so they can take it home to watch, I tape it for the de-breifing of the flight. I give them the tapes because it is their personal record of the flight, what they do with it after they leave the airport is up to them if they want they can use it as a foreplay aid with their girlfriend.

We're in a cheese burger society, here is my money I want my burger, I don't want to have to work to put it together myself. Would anyone buy the build it yourself McCheese burger... they want it ready done and they want it cheap even if it is crap food. 95% of students want to pay for the minimum and pass a flight test.

I can understand that attitude because you are correct, you must be in the bottom end of flight training because my clients not only can afford top notch teaching methods they appreciate the savings in time this method provides and happily pay me my rates.

I have the camera and the mount (I used it to tape my own lessons for my own benefit in the past), it is pretty simple affordable technology these days. However won't go out of my way to tape a students lesson if they can't be bothered to hanger fly an aircraft as I keep insisting. My effort to teach them will mirror their effort to learn.

I really can not comment on your reasons for not using it for training.

Most people could get a 45 hour license if they did the ground prep, but why should I hold their hand and work my ass off when they won't lift a finger.

I have no idea.

Have you sat them down and explained the savings in money they will get if they put in the effort to absorb your teaching?

I bet if you charged them what I charge they wouldn't want to do just waste their time with you...but if they did you would be making a decent living from it.