The Dumbing Down of Aviation

[Invertago]

I don't tape it so they can take it home to watch, I tape it for the de-breifing of the flight.

And how much do you charge per hour when debriefing your PPL students of their last flight? And when was the last middle class person you debriefed in this way?

Have you sat them down and explained the savings in money they will get if they put in the effort to absorb your teaching?

A typical training aircraft $135/hour + $50/hour for the instructor. Just over 1/3 the aircraft cost.

How much do you charge per hour? If you charged over $135/hour for your time in a debrief will the student save money by completing their PPL with only 45 hours?

You charge a higher rate then 99% of people would be willing to pay for ab-initio training. I would go so far as to say that the value of you teaching short field landings in a basic old C172 to a 10 hour PPL student would only be 50% more effective then some 500 hour class 4 instructor out there.

Yes you have a thousand times the experience of a typical 500hr instructor but...
How much of that is related to a short field lesson in a C172?
and a student can only absorb so much in a given lesson.

So if you can only teach the lesson 50% better yet you charge 500% more for your time would you be the person to hire to teach for the PPL?

[Cat Driver]

You charge a higher rate then 99% of people would be willing to pay for ab-initio training. I would go so far as to say that the value of you teaching short field landings in a basic old C172 to a 10 hour PPL student would only be 50% more effective then some 500 hour class 4 instructor out ther

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

How much do you charge per hour?

I no longer teach ab-initio so my hourly charge is irrevelant to teaching at that level.

If you charged over $135/hour for your time in a debrief will the student save money by completing their PPL with only 45 hours?

I would hope so.

How much of that is related to a short field lesson in a C172?
and a student can only absorb so much in a given lesson.

I really don't know how many short field lessons I have taught, but when I first got my instructors rating the 172 had not been built, we had 140's and 170's.....how many short field lessons have you taught in those airplanes?

So if you can only teach the lesson 50% better yet you charge 500% more for your time would you be the person to hire to teach for the PPL?

I really can't respond to those numbers.

Once again how do you arrive at this 50% number?

[Invertago]

Quote:
You charge a higher rate then 99% of people would be willing to pay for ab-initio training. I would go so far as to say that the value of you teaching short field landings in a basic old C172 to a 10 hour PPL student would only be 50% more effective then some 500 hour class 4 instructor out ther

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

I informally survey the people I fly with as I had considered the prospects of having my own aircraft and teaching on it part time. (I know the paperwork side of that and it had already been somewhat delt with)

Once again how do you arrive at this 50% number?

Just my personal opinion posted on the internet, not a research paper. I was speculating just as you speculate someone would complete their PPL at a lower cost with you while paying a hundred or more per hour for briefing time. Basically I pulled the number from my ass. Maybe it is 50% maybe it is 100% maybe it is 10% maybe -100%, probably would vary depending on the student.

I really don't know how many short field lessons I have taught, but when I first got my instructors rating the 172 had not been built, we had 140's and 170's.....how many short field lessons have you taught in those airplanes?

The few remaining 140's I've even seen have been rusted out surrounded by tall grass. I only have around a dozen hours on 170's. At this point I'd rather add to my G1000 Diamond time as well as get some experience with the diesel engines out there as I feel it will benefit me more in the future then dusting off old aircraft that are becoming more and more scarce. Not trying to dis the old aircraft, a 1946 champ was one of my favorite aircraft I learned on, but I value opportunities to fly new modern aircraft since they are the future of flight training. (that opinion is based on there being more and more Diamonds and the like and less and less C170s etc) I also doubt there will ever be an exotic market for teaching on 140's or 170's like you have with the PBY etc. As a side note, I would trade a 1000 hours in a DA44 for a trip around the island in a PBY just because that is a ever decreasing opportunity of a life time.

[Cat Driver]

Invertigo, just a couple more comments for you to think over and maybe get to earn a few more dollars.

First off the new generation of airplanes with magic boxes and idiot proof engine managing systems are great, but they still respond the same in flight to the control inputs. And there are a whole lot of tail wheel airplanes still being built, I just bought a two place tail wheel airplane for a friend that cost $250,000 so there has to be a market for training on this type of airplane.

I informally survey the people I fly with as I had considered the prospects of having my own aircraft and teaching on it part time. (I know the paperwork side of that and it had already been somewhat delt with)

You are planning on getting a FTU OC, or are you going to share the profits with a FTU?

Just my personal opinion posted on the internet, not a research paper. I was speculating just as you speculate someone would complete their PPL at a lower cost with you while paying a hundred or more per hour for briefing time.

I don't charge for briefing time as I charge enough for flying time to cover the briefing time. And believe it or not I do teach on other airplanes besides the PBY.

The simple solution to making more as a flight instructor is charge more and get them finished in minimum time...like 45 hours.

[Shiny Side Up]

I just bought a two place tail wheel airplane for a friend that cost $250,000 so there has to be a market for training on this type of airplane.

Wait, you just bought that for a friend? Can I be your friend?

And while you're at it can you put skis on it? With the ammount of snow here I'm going to need it.

[Cat Driver]

Wait, you just bought that for a friend? Can I be your friend?

Sure and if you have as much money as my friend I will buy you an Amphibious Husky.

[Bede]

When I was a 500 hr flight instructor, I got the vast majority of students done in less than 50 hrs. I know it's not common these days, but I used the same syllabus as I did when I taught air cadets. It's really not that hard to get some one finished in the minimum time as long as both parties as motivated.

[Cat Driver]

What is the national average now for getting a PPL?

[Invertago]

When I was a 500 hr flight instructor, I got the vast majority of students done in less than 50 hrs. I know it's not common these days, but I used the same syllabus as I did when I taught air cadets. It's really not that hard to get some one finished in the minimum time as long as both parties as motivated.

There in lies the key. The problem is that hours (quantity, variety, type etc... note I neglected quality as there is no column in the log book for that...) are the measuring stick for everything in and around aviation.


.: I'm fully aware of the variety of tail wheel aircraft being built, I'm a big fan of the home building scene and I'd never put an RV8 on tricycle gear. I was simply implying that there are less and less C140's and C170s out there. If I where going to start a school still, I would have gone with a good ol 172M because you get the most aircraft for the $ right now in terms of utilization for the student and other activities such as scenic flights etc. If I where going to add a second aircraft, it would be a tail dragger... and I was liking the idea of a cub that would be on floats all summer and wheels all winter. On the other hand, I'm not considering setting up my own school anytime soon, mostly because of airport politics where I was considering operating. (Town HATES the airport and most of all hates flight training) The other reason is that in order to make a good living you either go big... then you're more of a businessman then a pilot, or you go specialized like yourself... which I don't have the background for yet. Right now the idea is shelved, I want to explore as many other sides to this industry, then maybe I'll come back to it and hopefully municipal politics will have changed.

[C-GGGQ]

What is the national average now for getting a PPL?

63 I believe, or in that ballpark (it was 63 when I finished a couple of years ago)

[Invertago]

What is the national average now for getting a PPL?

63 I believe, or in that ballpark (it was 63 when I finished a couple of years ago)

I believe I heard around 70 this past year. I've also heard of a school shooting 50% on their flight test record (school average, not individual instructor)

The training system is broken, the industry as a whole is not much better it seems. Change needs to come from the top down, but just like our broken court system I doubt we'll see a fix for our industry either.

[Hedley]

70 (hrs to ppl) ... The training system is broken

I guess that depends upon your perspective. The FTU's
don't think the training system is broken - in fact, if the
national average for a ppl went up to 170 hours
all the FTU's would be happy as heck. Cha-ching!

Similarly, Tranport doesn't think the training system is
broken - it's not on the front page of the newspaper,
and no reporter from W5 is trying to stick a microphone
up their nose.

The students don't think it's broken. They're happy to
spend 50, 100, 150 hours, whatever it takes, as long
as the flight instructor is their "pal" and they are paying
$5/hr less than the training outfit across the ramp

So, who thinks it's broken? Some grumpy flight instructors?

P.S. I only do ab initio training on tailwheel these days. I
have no intention, wasting my time, to produce an inferior
student. See, people think my time, as an ATP/airshow pilot/
class one instructor is worthless, or nearly so. Hardly.

I only want to instruct worthwhile students. Selfish of me,
I know, but it's my time that I'm investing in those students -
and the future of aviation - and I don't want to waste my
time on some donkey that's (quite wisely) going to take up
golf or tennis next year, and never fly again.

[Shiny Side Up]

The average for private licences is also thrown way out of wack by a few out there who've taken 80 hours plus to get their licences. But if you investigate further into why they've taken so long, one is often amazed they were able to get a licence at all given how they went about it. I got shelves full of PTRs and semi abandoned logbooks waiting for their owners to decide they want to finish off their private licences - and you'd be suprised how many come back and claim them after periods of 5 and greater years of never even looking at an airplane. The minimum 45 hour PPL can easily be done, its just a matter of dedicating the time. If anything, a student can get a licence if they're dedicated enough in less time than it takes TC to issue the licence (which right now are being recieved right at the 90 day mark as specified on the back of the SPP - not a minute sooner)

[MichaelP]

I got shelves full of PTRs

I'm just taking a break from auditing all the PTRs here... Yes, I ask the question why so and so did not solo sooner; 'awaiting the medical' was a common answer.
We tell all students to get the medical done immediately... Some have troubles, awaiting audiogram or eyesight test, or just the three weeks it often takes for the certificate to arrive.

Then there's the students that have 8 week or more gaps in their training.

We also have to factor in the fact that students log hobbs time these days.
We are allowing an extra .1 free of charge for the first flight of the day to allow for more of a warm up.
I logged brakes off to brakes on when I learned to fly, and still do!

[Doc]

When I was a 500 hr flight instructor, I got the vast majority of students done in less than 50 hrs. I know it's not common these days, but I used the same syllabus as I did when I taught air cadets. It's really not that hard to get some one finished in the minimum time as long as both parties as motivated.

I was in the same boat. I tended to kick them out of the nest just as soon as I felt they were unlikely to actually die during that first solo! Also, I was never concerned about how many hours I got. I hated doing circuits and steep turns, so things tended to move along quite smartly.

[Cat Driver]

At the risk of offending a few of the " real pilots " here I also was a flight instructor at the early stage of my career, at that time the minimum time was 30 hours for the PPL and we managed to get a lot of them done in that time frame.

However flying was way easier in those days because we had much easier airplanes to teach on and radios and Nav. aids were also so much more simple to operate.

Another thing that made it easier was traffic in the circuit was not a problem as the Toronto Island Airport was a very quiet airport and it was unusual to have more than one airplane in the air at the same time, which of course made it easier for both the pilots and the person in the control tower.

So there gang lies the reason it takes so long to get a PPL in today's world, they have more difficult airplanes to teach on and the traffic and communications are far more complex.

[Shiny Side Up]

So there gang lies the reason it takes so long to get a PPL in today's world, they have more difficult airplanes to teach on and the traffic and communications are far more complex.

Umm, no. And don't be that way Cat.

Though granted many people have this perception. The only reason that pilots need 45 hours rather than the previous 30 is because transport upped the requirements and added a few other things in, and its not just because the airplanes are more complex.

The reason primarily that we have high time PPLs is the fact that we've moved to where more people are doing it for fun than are doing it for serious reasons (that is to say career or work oriented) Because its approached that way, many don't take it seriously, but I am very serious about it when it comes to the students and laying it out for them when they come to me with their "plan" for getting a PPL, and I got no bones about telling them whether its going to work or not. Let me tell you they can be pretty ill-concieved, and I take no pleasure in shooting holes in their "I had airplanes on my pyjama when I was little " dream.

Suffice to say, the PPL is looked at more as a hobby and often by many students treated as such. I should say that often, some are looking for the flight training "experience" rather than the end licence, and hours logged and money spent are often not even considered.

What can I say Cat? The world of flight training is different from when you started in it, and I dare say its different than from when even I started in it.

P.S.

At the risk of offending a few of the " real pilots " here I also was a flight instructor at the early stage of my career,

Yes Cat, the fact that you were a flight instructor "offends" me. Personally I can't think of a more heinous concept.

[Cat Driver]

Yes Cat, the fact that you were a flight instructor "offends" me. Personally I can't think of a more heinous concept.

AAhh...now I'm going to really get you depressed....when I retired I was still instructing.

And horror of horrors I still plan on doing some soon.

And to make it even worse those morons in flight training across the water at 800 Burrard will not have any control over or say in what I do.

[MichaelP]

more people are doing it for fun than are doing it for serious reasons

I beg to disagree with this notion.
In fact most students are still of the CPL bent and to increase the average some of them are not of a classic western upbringing with aeroplanes somewhat normal!
A lot of the Indian students do excessive hours for their PPLs.
Many Commercial Pilot students don't concern themselves with the time it takes to PPL as this does not affect their total hours at CPL.

I've had to correct many who had the impression that the dual taken for the PPL also counts for their CPL

People who do it for 'fun', and I include myself here, are often better motivated than those who are supposedly doing it as a career
It's perhaps the different original motives and mindset of those who think they'll enjoy a career as a pilot.
I believe that only a small percentage of people aiming at the airline career are the right stuff for such a career.
Many more of these people would enjoy their lives a lot more if they treated their flying as a passion and did not try to make a career out of it.
For many the removal of stress through doing it for fun would mean they take less time! For too many there's the hurry to get it done with the additional stress this brings.

As for me, I think I do a good job, but I still cherish the 18 years I flew for fun before I did a CPL and then an instructor's rating.
I taught people aerobatics, tailwheel, and how to fly a lot of funny aeroplanes during that 18 year period, and now I can earn some basic money in my passion.

This is me flying to the Isle of Wight for fun:

[C-GGGQ]

what aircraft would that be?

[AuxBatOn]

what aircraft would that be?

The one you need 2 hands on the yoke to fly

[Meatservo]

Is it a DH Dragon Rapide or something like that? The windows look familiar.

[trey kule]

say that the value of you teaching short field landings in a basic old C172 to a 10 hour PPL student would only be 50% more effective then some 500 hour class 4 instructor out there.

Unless you are teaching at a very small strip, the value would be having enough sense NOT to be teaching a 10 hr PPL student short field landings. Again, unless your training field requires it, landings at 10 hours and pre solo should be concentrated on the basics of a normal landing. Trying to teach them a bit of an advanced technique before they know how to land properly in a normal situation is a little like attempting to teach someone to run who has not learned how to walk

so in dollars, its value NOT spent wasting a students time.

[MichaelP]

The one you need 2 hands on the yoke to fly

It is... a heavy aeroplane made by the company that makes the heaviest aircraft in the world.

You can rent it and take 12 of your friends flying....
In Britain it is easy to find a dozen friends to go for a bimble and not share the cost of course

One of the problems with Canada is the Cessna 172, take three of your friends flying at a time and you easily expend your quota... Then flying a 172 on your own soon becomes boring.
Fly a two seater and get more of these flights done.

What stunned me here in Canada was all the solo flying I ended up doing... People who like flying would have to be somewhere else at 5 o'clock or something... Flying became a lonely thing here.
Pleasure shared is pleasure more than doubled.

[iflyforpie]

It is... a heavy aeroplane made by the company that makes the heaviest aircraft in the world.

Ahhh....the AN-2 Colt.

Never seen one in person but I understand they are indestructible and haul just about anything while giving you a good workout in the cockpit. Too bad they weren't certified here. Well the engine practically is since it is just a copy of an 1820.