Westjet's New Destinations

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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Realitychex
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Realitychex »

Great.

Show me a LUV market that operates 6 or 7x daily departures and I'll buy into their argument.

LUV has about 45+ a day out of DEN after 2 years. Piddling around in Canada is a waste of their time. ATL alone would exceed anything they could ever dream of in Canada.

If they want to operate 6 -7x a day, there are dozens and dozens of domestic markets they could hit without having to deal with transborder issues. Remember SWA and the 20 minute, ( now 30 minute) turn? That's not achievable on transborder.

SWAPA posturing. The bigger picture is an axis of low fares, Volaris, SWA and WJA, with each feeding each other with a total market pop exceeding the EU. Thats were the true opportunity lies.

8)
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Four1oh
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Four1oh »

Glen, do you prefer 'brother' or 'comrade' when someone addresses you? I'm almost being serious here... :?
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

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Glen Quagmire
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Glen Quagmire »

Four1oh you attack me and don't address the issues raised, everything becomes muddled in personal drivel having no real bearing on the serious issues raised. The concept of pilots being happy about fares being lower on a certain route thus the margins being lower is irrational to me. Even more irrational when your salary structure is directly affected by profit. I happen to have a vested interest in WJ and its success so it’s a little bit unsettling when I see some of my peers try to justify in their minds lower fares in this industry as positive. Of course I realize the habitual posters are the dogmatic type, hardliners is another way to put it.

Realitychex you have to realize that the SWA model, much like the WJ model is built on continuous growth and when the growth stops the culture starts to change.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/ ... look_N.htm

It is completely unrealistic to assume that a large powerful union in the states will simply back off and let you fly all of their passengers in and out of their hubs to Canadian cities while they themselves are contracting. My vested interest in WJ and myself are a little worried that you are heading into the dangerous territory of codesharing with too much Kool-Aid in the belly. Get ready for a fight and at least protect what you do have, there won't be any singing of songs around the campfire with SWA pilots over this.
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lawndart
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by lawndart »

Volaris takes over all of WJ's Canada to Mexico flying as a code share (because they can do it for 1.5 cents per ASM less), and WJ lays off a bunch of staff. Or, to be more accurate, Volaris does all of the expansion flying between Mexico and Canada.

I would bet that the lower cost gang would have issues with that. Sort of seems that SWALPA has the same issue.
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Realitychex
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Realitychex »

lawndart wrote:Volaris takes over all of WJ's Canada to Mexico flying as a code share (because they can do it for 1.5 cents per ASM less), and WJ lays off a bunch of staff. Or, to be more accurate, Volaris does all of the expansion flying between Mexico and Canada.

I would bet that the lower cost gang would have issues with that. Sort of seems that SWALPA has the same issue.
That's assumes you have an inkling what Volaris is up to, and you don't. 8)

As for WJA's growth, I see nothing to suggest WJ won't continue to grow like a weed over the next 5 years minimum. There are still numerous opportunities, more frequency and more dot-connecting to do. Add the ability to expand into markets the legacy carriers will contract from, and other opportunities as a result of code share, and, quite frankly, I see WJ doing precisely what SWA has historically done in tougher economic times. Leap frog growth.

8)
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matrix
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by matrix »

Realitychex wrote: As for the big fuel costs up north, 737NG's can easily tanker the most inexpensive JetA in Canada the 700 miles YEG to YZF. Can't do that in a -200......
Nice try. A -200 with -17 engines can do this without a problem.
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Realitychex
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Realitychex »

matrix wrote:
Realitychex wrote: As for the big fuel costs up north, 737NG's can easily tanker the most inexpensive JetA in Canada the 700 miles YEG to YZF. Can't do that in a -200......
Nice try. A -200 with -17 engines can do this without a problem.
That's good to know. :)

What do those -17's burn? About 850gph? What's the hourly maintenance cost to keep them in the air? It's gotta be about US$1300 to $1500 per block hour these days.

That equates to at least us$750 an hour in additional costs, even after factoring WJ's ownership costs.

The Northern carriers have had well over a decade to prepare for Westjet's arrival into the YZF, and, I would imagine, YXY.

They've taken no steps at all to get the appropriate equipment to be able to be cost competitive with WJA on north - south routes.

There are lots of 737NG's available had they had the foresight to acquire them. There's no need for gravel kits in Whitehorse or Yellowknife.

It's pretty hard to be sympathetic to their plight.

8)
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

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FICU
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by FICU »

Realitychex wrote:
The Northern carriers have had well over a decade to prepare for Westjet's arrival into the YZF, and, I would imagine, YXY.

They've taken no steps at all to get the appropriate equipment to be able to be cost competitive with WJA on north - south routes.

There are lots of 737NG's available had they had the foresight to acquire them. There's no need for gravel kits in Whitehorse or Yellowknife.
You "Westjeters" are really starting show very inflated egos... you think that airlines should be thinking about you 10 years ago and how they are going to face your greatness when you decide to cherry pick new routes in markets with a completely different operating structure? Now I am starting to believe you guys are drinking that kool-aid.

7F and 5T are private companies with a mandate by their northern "owners" to supply an air service that not only moves people but freight to communities in the arctic. They run combi's because of the volume and size of freight that goes north. They don't buy NGs to run between EG and ZF because they need fleet commonality, something you should understand. They keep gravel equipped machines for redundancy. You are only thinking about the easy EG-ZF run and have no understanding about what these airlines are about or who they serve. You will find out about the volume of passengers that go between EG and ZF this summer... don't expect to fill your NGs.

Maybe once you give them the knockout punch you will look into combi NGs to help those further north who need the freight support that 7F and 5T have been providing. Maybe you will start sponsoring hockey tournaments and other athletics for the people of the north. You see 5T and 7F are more than just "airlines" they are providers of needed funding and sponsors to many different groups and events across the arctic... will you care when that funding is pulled in order to compete with $100 fares between EG and ZF?

Again.. these decisions to now, *cough* economic downturn *cough*, start to bully other airlines who have completely different operations, seem like moves of desperation.

BTW... was on a WJ flight to YWG earlier this week... 2 hours late(aircraft swap)... we sat in the plane on the gate for an hour and a half waiting for more "guests" to show up after being rushed to board. No water service was offered in the time we sat there. If it matters, I have been on 5T with a delay on at the gate and they did water and snack service while we sat there followed by a complimentary alcoholic drink not including the already complimentary wine once we were enroute... it's called customer service and yes, it does cost money.

"7 dollars for a pillow and blanket"... I remember being in disbelief when Air Canada started charging for blankets and pillows... another sign of the economic times for WJ?

So Air North will be the next airline you decide to punch in the gut because you are so compassionate about the plight of the Whitehorse residents? Let me guess... a seasonal run to cherry pick the tourists?
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Arctic84
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Arctic84 »

FICU wrote:
Realitychex wrote:
The Northern carriers have had well over a decade to prepare for Westjet's arrival into the YZF, and, I would imagine, YXY.

They've taken no steps at all to get the appropriate equipment to be able to be cost competitive with WJA on north - south routes.

There are lots of 737NG's available had they had the foresight to acquire them. There's no need for gravel kits in Whitehorse or Yellowknife.
You "Westjeters" are really starting show very inflated egos... you think that airlines should be thinking about you 10 years ago and how they are going to face your greatness when you decide to cherry pick new routes in markets with a completely different operating structure? Now I am starting to believe you guys are drinking that kool-aid.

7F and 5T are private companies with a mandate by their northern "owners" to supply an air service that not only moves people but freight to communities in the arctic. They run combi's because of the volume and size of freight that goes north. They don't buy NGs to run between EG and ZF because they need fleet commonality, something you should understand. They keep gravel equipped machines for redundancy. You are only thinking about the easy EG-ZF run and have no understanding about what these airlines are about or who they serve. You will find out about the volume of passengers that go between EG and ZF this summer... don't expect to fill your NGs.

Maybe once you give them the knockout punch you will look into combi NGs to help those further north who need the freight support that 7F and 5T have been providing. Maybe you will start sponsoring hockey tournaments and other athletics for the people of the north. You see 5T and 7F are more than just "airlines" they are providers of needed funding and sponsors to many different groups and events across the arctic... will you care when that funding is pulled in order to compete with $100 fares between EG and ZF?

Again.. these decisions to now, *cough* economic downturn *cough*, start to bully other airlines who have completely different operations, seem like moves of desperation.

BTW... was on a WJ flight to YWG earlier this week... 2 hours late(aircraft swap)... we sat in the plane on the gate for an hour and a half waiting for more "guests" to show up after being rushed to board. No water service was offered in the time we sat there. If it matters, I have been on 5T with a delay on at the gate and they did water and snack service while we sat there followed by a complimentary alcoholic drink not including the already complimentary wine once we were enroute... it's called customer service and yes, it does cost money.

"7 dollars for a pillow and blanket"... I remember being in disbelief when Air Canada started charging for blankets and pillows... another sign of the economic times for WJ?

So Air North will be the next airline you decide to punch in the gut because you are so compassionate about the plight of the Whitehorse residents? Let me guess... a seasonal run to cherry pick the tourists?
It's called a free market economy. You might not like it, but it's what we have.

The northern airlines can try to have the industry re-regulated, or whatever they think is appropriate, but I doubt that will happen. They can decide to fly YYC-YYZ all summer long, if that's what they want. Nothing stopping them from doing a little "cherry picking" of their own. The point is, what WJ does is entirely up to WJ. If there is no traffic, then the northern airlines can claim a great victory, and you can come here and crow all the live long day about how right you were.

Can you believe that at one time PWA had to make at least one stop, and usually two, to get from YYC to YVR? That they couldn't fly from YYC to YYZ because it might put a dent into the AC monopoly? The world has changed. It's been slower coming to the north, but when AC/Jazz started flying RJs to YZF, the northern duopoly was changed forever, and I doubt there will be any turning back.

When I worked in Resolute Bay, there were 4 scheduled jet flights a week from the south. How many are there now? The northern airlines may not work on the same economic principals as the rest of the aviation world, but even they have to face reality.

And those Kool-Aid remarks? Is that the best you can do?
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by KAG »

I have the greatest respect for CDN North and First Air. I've flown CDN North many times, and still say they have the best inflight service in Canada. Then again it does come at a premium. Although I want my company to continue to expand in a profitable manor, I can't see us having a huge effect in Northern Canada, nor would I want our actions to negatively effect the above mentioned. I have a soft spot for the north, and those that fly there.
It's a big sandbox, we can all play nicely.
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Ali G »

I dont know why anyone must defend WJs actions for other operators inaction.

FA and CN have there opportunity. Can they evolve? Business is constantly changing and maybe they should seize upon their moment to address their future, rather than running status quo.

If WJ wants to run north, it is a free market. Deal with it. If cargo is so important, then maybe those gravel machines have found their niche? Growth can be explored through partnerships, new markets and greater efficiency.
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

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Arctic84
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Arctic84 »

I was just looking at fares to Resolute (YRB) to satisfy my curious mind.

Air Norterra doesn't go there at all any more. So you need to go through Montreal on First Air. The airfare is $2822 plus fees for a total price of $3218. YUL to Iqualit is on a 737 , then switch to an ATR.

I think the northern airlines are gonna be okay.
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by hercdvr »

Arctic84 wrote:I was just looking at fares to Resolute (YRB) to satisfy my curious mind.

Air Norterra doesn't go there at all any more. So you need to go through Montreal on First Air. The airfare is $2822 plus fees for a total price of $3218. YUL to Iqualit is on a 737 , then switch to an ATR.

I think the northern airlines are gonna be okay.
You are correct in that the yeg-yzf route is a minor part of the greator scheme for both airlines, thats why i welcome Westjet. The people in YZF will welcome the fares although I'm still not sold on the times and it will be hard to fill an NG with those times but what the hell, the more the merrier in YZF. 5T and 7F will still get tonnes of government transport and for most people going to points father north the times that Westjet arrive will be past most of the flights up north.
It never was a strong route for both airlines and they will have to adapt thats all.
I heard there were lay off's at 5T which sucks, lost a contract or something, too bad man. merry x-mass right
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Arctic84 »

Yeah, it does suck. That oil sands contact was up for grabs, and Enerjet stepped up with NGs to take it. The pilots are left holding the bag.

As Realitychex said, those airplanes were available. On most of Norterra's system, you don't need a gravel kit, and I think they might have a 200 or two that are not equipped with it. I can't understand why they persist with A/C that can't compete.
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by FICU »

Arctic84 wrote:Yeah, it does suck. That oil sands contact was up for grabs, and Enerjet stepped up with NGs to take it. The pilots are left holding the bag.

As Realitychex said, those airplanes were available. On most of Norterra's system, you don't need a gravel kit, and I think they might have a 200 or two that are not equipped with it. I can't understand why they persist with A/C that can't compete.
Nice to see one WJ employee, KAG, understands the north and what's going on... too bad is co-workers only think of expanding the empire and seem pleased to want to put other airlines in their sights with no idea of the potential long term implications to people of the north.

Arctic84... 5T's troubles have nothing to due with Enerjet... the company they have been doing the flying for over the past 3 years decided to hold back on a lot of flying in 2009 because they delayed some major construction due to of the price of the oil and the present economic situation. This also caused 5T to hold off on purchasing new aircraft that were within weeks of being bought and no, they weren't -200s.

5T increased crews in 2008 to be prepared for 2009 and now are over crewed unfortunately.
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Arctic84
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Arctic84 »

FICU wrote:
Arctic84 wrote:Yeah, it does suck. That oil sands contact was up for grabs, and Enerjet stepped up with NGs to take it. The pilots are left holding the bag.

As Realitychex said, those airplanes were available. On most of Norterra's system, you don't need a gravel kit, and I think they might have a 200 or two that are not equipped with it. I can't understand why they persist with A/C that can't compete.
Nice to see one WJ employee, KAG, understands the north and what's going on... too bad is co-workers only think of expanding the empire and seem pleased to want to put other airlines in their sights with no idea of the potential long term implications to people of the north.

Arctic84... 5T's troubles have nothing to due with Enerjet... the company they have been doing the flying for over the past 3 years decided to hold back on a lot of flying in 2009 because they delayed some major construction due to of the price of the oil and the present economic situation. This also caused 5T to hold off on purchasing new aircraft that were within weeks of being bought and no, they weren't -200s.

5T increased crews in 2008 to be prepared for 2009 and now are over crewed unfortunately.
Yup, that's me, pleased to be going to YZF. Like anybody asked me.

It's business. When AC dropped fares to retarded levels in YXX, it was business. When they dropped YYC to YWG fares to $31 one way, it was business. Had WJ not modernized to NGs, I doubt I would be working today. I would not be blaming AC pilots if my company had failed to move with the times.

What you or I or any pilot thinks about this route or that route doesn't amount to dried shit, and that's a fact.
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matrix
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by matrix »

Arctic84 wrote:Yeah, it does suck. That oil sands contact was up for grabs, and Enerjet stepped up with NGs to take it. The pilots are left holding the bag.

As Realitychex said, those airplanes were available. On most of Norterra's system, you don't need a gravel kit, and I think they might have a 200 or two that are not equipped with it. I can't understand why they persist with A/C that can't compete.
Yeah, the gravel kits aren't really all that necessary anymore. The only sked flight that 5Ts 737s go into gravel is YCB once a week. There are 2 diamond mine strips that they go to a few times a week.

The problem with upgrading to a newer 737 is palleted cargo. There is a lack of a combi aircraft that can be converted to allow a mix of cargo and pax. There is a company in the US that converts 737-400s to a 72(?) pax with the rest cargo, but the bulkhead is fixed, so thats the only configuration that it has. The 737-200C can be converted to allow a mix from all pax to full pallets and everything in between. Very versatile.

So, if you dont understand why they persist with that aircraft, you really dont understand what kind of flying 5T does. Good luck getting a pickup truck in an NG.
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Arctic84
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Arctic84 »

Alaska makes it work with the -400 combi. Boeing will be happy sell you a -700 convertable; you can fly passengers all day and pick-up trucks all night.

I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing could rig something up with a movable bulkhead, like First Air did with ATR. It would require a commitment to buy, and some funding of the development (a la FA and the ATR).

No problem is insurmountable if the will is there to find a solution.
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Clint23 »

The problem is, TC won't certify the new combi's with moveable bulkheads. They are worried about fire/smoke protection, so it has to be sealed for any combis' except the -200's which are exempt under the old rules.

Cheers
Arctic84 wrote:Alaska makes it work with the -400 combi. Boeing will be happy sell you a -700 convertable; you can fly passengers all day and pick-up trucks all night.

I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing could rig something up with a movable bulkhead, like First Air did with ATR. It would require a commitment to buy, and some funding of the development (a la FA and the ATR).

No problem is insurmountable if the will is there to find a solution.
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Four1oh
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by Four1oh »

Glen Quagmire wrote:Four1oh you attack me and don't address the issues raised, everything becomes muddled in personal drivel having no real bearing on the serious issues raised. The concept of pilots being happy about fares being lower on a certain route thus the margins being lower is irrational to me. Even more irrational when your salary structure is directly affected by profit. I happen to have a vested interest in WJ and its success so it’s a little bit unsettling when I see some of my peers try to justify in their minds lower fares in this industry as positive. Of course I realize the habitual posters are the dogmatic type, hardliners is another way to put it.

My 'attack' as you call it did address the issue you raised, but I guess I have to spell it out. We are no longer regulated, and we are not commies here in Canada no matter how badly certain people strive to achieve their socialist goals. If you have a vested interest in WJ and have been around a while, you should know that WJ has not only grabbed low hanging fruit with their fares, but WJ has also created a market where none existed before with their fares. The bashers might allude to the trailer trash we sometimes get on board, but so what? Their money is as good as the snob flying super elite. And, no matter how much people wish for the days of the snob-only travellers, those days are gone forever, unless you want to pay a premium.

To say that WJ should jack the prices up to do the competition a favor would be breaking the model. We offer fares that turn us a profit, we do it responsibly most of the time, and we make a profit most of the time. I'm sure someone could point out where that has failed, and I'll agree it's not perfect, but I've yet to see perfection in any business.
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by swordfish »

The traveling public here (Yellowknife) feel they need some relief from the incredible airfares they pay around the North. While WJ may force "a more competitive fare" between here and Edmonton, the impact of that competition will be to force the airfares up to other points in the NWT and Nunavut in order for them to maintain their regional viability.

When FICU states:
Maybe once you give them the knockout punch you will look into combi NGs to help those further north who need the freight support that 7F and 5T have been providing. Maybe you will start sponsoring hockey tournaments and other athletics for the people of the north. You see 5T and 7F are more than just "airlines" they are providers of needed funding and sponsors to many different groups and events across the arctic... will you care when that funding is pulled in order to compete with $100 fares between EG and ZF?
he is absolutely correct. The level at which these 2 airlines benefit the social, educational, sporting, and recreational lives of Northern residents cannot be understood unless you have actually lived in a remote community here.

Those airlines (plus others in the Eastern part of the country, of course) are everywhere - not just at the airport. They sponsor travel and other expenses of hundreds of residents here year-round, improving the life in/of the communities at large.

Will WJ do that for Yellowknifers? ("We're already providing you with a competitive fare to go South...what more do you want?? Don't you understand our business model?")

I imagine Air North is in a similar position. Oh, and don't let me ignore the considerable contributions of the Mines (BHP and Diavik) in this treatise. They are everywhere too, and in huge amounts of funding and subsidies, as are most of the businesses here. That is the culture of the airlines and other businesses in the North. I hope WJ gets the message.
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Re: Westjet's New Destinations

Post by swordfish »

btw...

Some of you (contributors) to this thread have some interesting and informative perspectives...not to mention the eloquence of your writing.

But your spelling is fundamentally atrocious, or you're extending your vocabularies beyond their reasonable limits. It is distracting to read some (apparently well-informed) post that has been destroyed by spelling errors.

Clean it up...eh... :roll:
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