Forced Approach.

[MichaelP]

I know that Barney... I respect your experence. I'm glad we're not operating 104's out of CZBB
Yes there are many ways to skin cats, and I've learned and accepted many different ways.
But some things I see are just dangerous. Work for the instructors but do not go well for a student on his own.
I am not suggesting anything more than teaching in accord with the Flight Training Manual as we all should.

Extra ways developed by instructors should be in addition to TC and ICAO requirements and not such that the student becomes confused.
Reads the FTM and then is taught something completely different by the instructor.

We teach both methods of crosswind landing, and we should teach both FTM methods of forced landing procedure.

[Shiny Side Up]

We teach both methods of crosswind landing, and we should teach both FTM methods of forced landing procedure.

Before you get too carried away, unlike the Bible, the FTM has changed its stance on several of its tennets over the years - in particular where the forced approach procedure has been ammended several times, and even so in the last edition change. Much like the bible though, the FTM is also open to interpretation. Last of all, the FTM is also superseded in many of its cases by the manufacturer's reccomendations in the aircraft's operating handbook.

What does this mean? It means that while the FTM gives a good baseline, it by no means fills in all the details. That being said, you'll find that most instructors do teach its methods. Being careful with that, one should be aware that pilots, depending on when they were trained, will have differing opinions. I personally am old enough to remember discussing the differences between what is presented in the grey edition (second?) and the blue one, and again when things changed in the latest - the purple book. While for the most part you're preachin' to the choir here MichaelP, keep in mind what you're reading from is only on paper and not set in stone.

[MichaelP]

The procedures in the FTM do not differ from those developed over the past 90 years or so.
My concern is for safety and we must teach the safest methods.
What I see is students doing some very dangerous things when taught unusual methods.

I had a similar argument recently where the instructor was teaching students to hold the nosewheel on the ground on takeoff from a short gravel strip, get 60 knots, and then pull the aircraft off (C152). This is counter to every book and even to common sense.
Then the student had used 60 knots to rotate the 152 taking off from a long asphalt runway afterwards and argued that this was safer than using the 50 knot rotate speed. He could not understand the consequences of what he had been taught.
The students so taught will be hard to rectify in the future... "First things learned", and "teach it right the first time".

As instructors we must examine what we teach and how a student will use the information we give.
If we have an unusual procedure and we teach that procedure then we must take responsibility for the consequences.

It is not usual for me to get so publicly 'angry' if you like... But I have seen the result of this bad instruction with students/PPL renters getting it very wrong having been taught the figure of eight procedure.

We are lucky that engine failures are very rare and so we are unlikely to see the results of our instruction in this area.
However, if we send students out solo to practice a procedure, that procedure should be very safe.
Fortunately, students are not permitted to go below 500 feet on their solo practices.

I do wonder though. There was a Cherokee that went in in the Glen Valley a few years ago, does anyone know or remember the circumstances?

[scm]

It becomes difficult at busy airports but setting a low idle power and some flaps to simulate a power off glide abeam the runway #s can teach students glide judgement before they've even heard of a forced approach. Relate the forced approach back to a normal circuit for landing using all the usual circuit joining methods.

Another thing is understanding that glide range isn't just a spot ahead of the aircraft but a circle around the aircraft, and how wind, turns, and dog-legged approaches within that circle affect glide range.

[viennatech]

I had a LOT of trouble during my training with the forced approaches. Even to the extent that I had to do 3 "pre flight test" runs before getting it right. I was always too high, which was even too high to slip/flap off. I was trained in both the 360 and the high key, low key methods. Initially the high key, low key was all that was used, once I tried a new instructor she offered the 360 method and when explained properly it made everything "click".

I then went up with a different class 1 and he showed me that KEY to forced approaches has nothing to do with keys or 360's or anything like that. It comes down to TIMING. From the moment they pull the power you more or less have a set amount of time to do everything and that time is generally longer than you think. (why was i always too high? I was too rushed). He then pulled the power and showed me how he does it. It was as if time stood still, not because he did it differently (the sequence was the same) it's because he did it smoothly and without rushing.

I was then able to do forced quite easily. I favoured the 360 method is it seemed to be the cat's meow. Turns out on the actual flight test, I ended up using the high key, low key and flew it perfectly. (funny how that works!!).

Now that I think about the other comments in this thread, I always use a power off approaches to land but it's quite cold out there, if I want to use a power "on" do I simply drop the flaps sooner and leave it at 1400 RPM or so? Is it really that dangerous to use a power off abeam the numbers approach in a c172 if I did apply carb heat on downwind and only pulled the power abeam the numbers.. I assume the danger lies in the need for a go-around and less in if you actually make the landing?

Thanks!

[Hedley]

I was always too high

Common problem. See, people never do power-off
approaches any more - they've become "old-fashioned"
or something - so they have no idea how well the aircraft
will glide, with the power off.

So, they panic when the throttle comes back, and assume
that the airplane comes down like a manhole cover with the
power off, and fly a ridiculously tight circuit, ending up with a
near-hover over the threshold, still at hundreds of feet in the
air

I love pulling the throttle on downwind, abeam the numbers.
It teaches the person how to fly a power-off approach.

If the tower won't let you do that, at your home airport,
time to go to a quiet little airport and practice it there.

It's hard to get good at something without practicing
it. IMHO most people simply haven't practiced a forced
(power off) approach enough times to get good at it,
before their flight test.

[viennatech]

I was always too high

I love pulling the throttle on downwind, abeam the numbers.
It teaches the person how to fly a power-off approach.

If the tower won't let you do that, at your home airport,
time to go to a quiet little airport and practice it there.

Every landing I make is done thusly. SOMEtimes I have to bring some power back in on final due to not turning in soon enough but thankfully my home airport has no tower and has no problem with power off approaches. Even still, the hard part when out "in the wild" is that farmers fields don't have wonderful black tarmac with white markings making it obvious where the "abeam" point is. It took a few hours of practice to make that sink in for me using fields.

I'd hate to think about what my flying would be like if I was never able to do a landing the "natural" way. Having a tower tell me when to turn base, 14 miles out, just seems so wrong. Who knows, now I might not be able to go there with my tight circuits and short approaches!

[pilotguyCANADA]

Practice at home over and over procedure what youll say etc and steps. This way, youll be more confident and spend more time flying than bumbling over Px brief, engine check, may day call, etc.

[SuperchargedRS]

Are you guys saying that some people only look dead ahead for a spot to land... (or you even have to mention, a runway could be beside you?), if your students dont just know that w/o saying, I would tell them to pick up a book on a exciting career in bus driving lol

When I did my forced approach training (if you could call it that) I was tought best glide, and the re-start / ditch procedure, ASIDE from that every once in a while my instructor would pull power all the way back and say your engine is dead. I would refer to the procedure in the CFS (*see -> common fuking sense), I never had a problem.

One thing that may have helped me is I did my initial training in a taildragger and a lot of grass work, so I think you get a better sense of where in real life your plane will stop right side up, along with learning how to fly the plane via feel vs a calculator/equation, because I think that is what saves your arse in a no power, in the middle of nowhere situation.



Is Canada teaching robots here or pilots.

[. ._]

I pray to almighty Allah, and if I make the field, it is His will.

[MorganAirCFI]

I do wonder though. There was a Cherokee that went in in the Glen Valley a few years ago, does anyone know or remember the circumstances?

One I remember was the student put the airplane in a spiral on a solo in the Glenn Vally. They figure it might have been poor practice on steep turns and wrong recovery technique from a spiral. They figure he might have neutralized elevator and not correcting bank in attempt to recover from the spiral. The TSB report said he flew only a few times that year after a break, and had many remedial flights for poor steep turn entries.

I worked the front desk at the school at the time when this guy walked in looking for lessons. I talked him into the school. He was a great guy.

[MichaelP]

One of the difficulties in this business is that we tend to make friends with the students and they are often great people.
It's sometimes difficult to tell someone he's just not getting it.
There are some people who should not get licences, but we tend to believe everyone should. We got our licences didn't we?

We will fly with students beyond 100 hours to get the PPL.
In some cases bad teaching in the beginning leads to long remedial times as bad habits have to be attempted to be replaced with good ones.
But often it is because the student has not applied the effort required, or is just not personally equipped to learn to fly.

No amount of effort would make me a ballet dancer! For some no amount of effort would make them into pilots.

steep turns and wrong recovery technique from a spiral

This is precisely why I do not want to see the figure of 8 technique. It is too easy for the pilot to get into this situation at low level when trying to turn towards a field at too low a level.

[hairdo]

Are you guys saying that some people only look dead ahead for a spot to land... (or you even have to mention, a runway could be beside you?), if your students dont just know that w/o saying, I would tell them to pick up a book on a exciting career in bus driving lol

When I did my forced approach training (if you could call it that) I was tought best glide, and the re-start / ditch procedure, ASIDE from that every once in a while my instructor would pull power all the way back and say your engine is dead. I would refer to the procedure in the CFS (*see -> common fuking sense), I never had a problem.

Well, first you will find that common sense isn't all that common. Second, when many people get stressed (such as in an engine failure situation), they tend to get tunnel vision and may not think to look around (aka. they focus on the problem and not the solution).

I pray to almighty Allah, and if I make the field, it is His will.

But watch your back... you never know when the CIA will steal you away for making such remarks!

[brokenwing]

I'm being fairly ignorant here, but im addressing the original post, its all i read. If you are having trouble with forced approaches, ask your instructor to teach you the circling procedure (its in the FTM), it is very straight foreward once you learn the a/c's power off descent rate. there are a couple of mathmatical formulas (very basic) and an extra key point or 2, but is by far the easiest imo. one other thing, don't get too far downwind of your field, its always better to be a little more upwind than too far downwind. I'm sure i'm going to get flammed. but this method has had a better success rate than others for me.