For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
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For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Timing is everything.
Re: Check This Out
That should be mandatory reading for prospective student pilots!
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New York Times
April 10, 2008
For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality
By JEFF BAILEY
IRVING, Tex. — Among the jobs little boys dream of — policeman, fireman, bulldozer driver — airline pilot long held the added virtue of satisfying grown-up dreams: pay that reached $300,000 a year, 20 days a month off work, the prestige of one day commanding a $200 million airplane, and a lush retirement at 60.
But the airline industry’s financial collapse this decade did away with much of that, leaving thousands of young men — and increasingly women — chasing a dream toward a disappointing reality.
“My wife thinks I’m nuts,” said Jason Captain, 32, of Fort Worth who left the Navy last November, walking away from $75,000-a-year lieutenant’s pay for flying military brass in and out of Guantánamo Bay.
He started training last month to fly a 76-seat regional jet for a Northwest Airlines subsidiary and expects to make about $21,000 his first year. Like most airline pilots, Mr. Captain had his heart set on flying “ever since I was a little kid,” he said. “I can’t see myself in an office.”
In recent years, he and his wife, June, were in the odd position of saving part of his military pay so they and their two sons could afford to have him work in the private sector. It could take him a decade to work his way back up to his former income.
He hopes, of course, to jump ultimately to the big jets at Northwest Airlines, where the most senior pilots can still make more than $150,000 a year, but there is no guarantee he will get there.
And, with the airline industry ready to go into another swoon because of high fuel prices, Mr. Captain and other junior pilots could find themselves furloughed.
“You’re much better off going into plumbing, from a purely financial perspective,” said Ed Grogan, a financial planner in Gig Harbor, Wash., who has pilots among his clients.
The military is turning out fewer pilots, so aspiring aviators increasingly attend private flight schools, emerging with as much as $150,000 in student debt. Student loan payments can exceed $1,000 a month.
After Sept. 11, 2001, the biggest domestic airlines reduced their fleets by hundreds of planes, so they needed fewer pilots. And through actual and threatened bankruptcies, airlines managed to cut pilot pay by 30 percent or more. Many pilots lost big parts of their pensions. Work hours increased.
Certainly, top pay of $200,000 a year at the biggest airlines, down from $300,000, is still a nice living.
But cuts at big airlines were just the beginning of the decline in pilot careers. Regional airlines, which pay far less than hub-and-spoke carriers even after the pay cuts, expanded to handle much of the flying that bigger airlines had abandoned. Many new pilot jobs are like the one Mr. Captain is taking, with a rock-bottom starting wage that creeps slowly toward $100,000 a year.
Poor pay and fewer big-airline jobs to move up to have led to fewer applicants, creating a pilot shortage that is most acute overseas but is also felt here.
Regional airlines have had to reduce hiring standards drastically. Earlier this decade, they could insist on a candidate’s having at least 1,500 hours of total flight time before an interview. Today, that minimum is 500 hours at many regional carriers. The decline is contributing to safety concerns among some experts.
The seniority system — a new pilot starts at the bottom at most airlines, earning the lowest pay and getting the worst shifts — limits job-hopping. So choosing the right employer the first time around is crucial. Moving from first officer, the right seat, to captain, the left seat, brings the biggest leap in pay and status.
Thus, Mr. Captain, who looks forward to being called Captain Captain, turned down a job at American Eagle Airlines, the regional division of American Airlines. It initially paid better, but the wait to upgrade to captain is six and a half years. At the Northwest regional carrier, Compass, which is growing, he could make captain in as little as one year.
But things change. Network carriers like United Airlines and Delta Air Lines hire regional carriers, which are separate companies, to fly feeder routes from smaller cities into hub airports. But the big airlines renegotiate contracts every few years, often switching carriers to reduce costs. That means today’s fast-growing regional airline could be laying off pilots tomorrow.
“It’s a nightmare,” said Kit Darby, who retired a year ago as a United pilot and runs a pilot job fair business, Air Inc.
Some pilots leave the business. Paul Rice, a vice president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a pilots union, said that in previous decades nearly 100 percent of furloughed pilots came back when temporary layoffs ended. Since Sept. 11, 2001, though, 30 to 35 percent did not return when offered their old jobs.
At Mesa Air Group, a big regional carrier, 784 pilots left last year, some moving up to hub-and-spoke network carriers, some moving laterally to other regional airlines and about 10 percent leaving the business altogether, said Michael Jayson, until recently the pilots union chief at Mesa. Turnover is high at some other regional airlines, too.
Todd Lehmacher, 39, learned to fly as a teenager and worked a variety of airline jobs in crew scheduling and as a ticket pricing specialist and flight attendant while accumulating the flying hours to be a pilot. “It was something I just had to do,” he said.
He was hired by Mesa in August 2005, but long hours and unpleasant relations between pilots and management wore on him.
He sometimes slept on the plane during late shifts — “camping trips,” pilots call them — that required him to fly again early the next morning. He said he often worked a 13-hour day to get in five hours of flying time, the only hours pilots are paid for.
Mr. Lehmacher quit last September and runs a travel agency in Phoenix that sells cruise trips to airline workers.
Mesa officials did not return phone calls seeking comment.
Samantha Negley did not get the flying bug until a boyfriend took her up in a four-seat Cessna in 1999. It was a bright day in San Luis Obispo, Calif., and they flew over farms, across the beach and over the ocean. “He let me take the controls. It was amazing,” said Ms. Negley, who is now 30.
She graduated from college that year with a journalism degree and spent four years working odd jobs — tending bar, substitute teaching, tutoring — to save money for flight lessons. Landings were her favorite part.
In an essay for a $1,500 scholarship she won to supplement her flight school costs, Ms. Negley said she planned a life around flying. “In five years, I plan to be a captain at Mesa Airlines,” she wrote. “In 10 years, I plan to be a first officer with a major airline, awaiting my chance to upgrade.”
She was accepted at a New Mexico flight school that feeds pilot candidates to Mesa and was hired in 2004. “The day I found out was like the best day ever,” she said. Making about $15,000 initially, and saddled with $50,000 of school debt, she moved in with her sister in Washington, flying out of Dulles Airport.
A typical day had her up at 5 a.m., at the airport by 8 a.m., and making three flights spread out so that the last one landed about 10 p.m. Then it was wait for a hotel shuttle; sleep; get up again at 6 a.m.
She also worked overnight shifts, sleeping across a row of seats and being awakened by a gate agent in time to brush her teeth in the plane lavatory and tuck her shirt in before passengers came aboard. “It was crazy,” she said.
“I was enjoying the landings. I was living my whole life for those three minutes a day.” Otherwise, she thought, “this is the worst life ever.”
She quit last July and went to work at Mattel, where she writes copy for packaging of Hot Wheels and other toys. She makes more money and has whittled her student debt down to $30,000.
She knows she will be home every night in Long Beach to walk the dogs. She plays beach volleyball. And became engaged in February. “Normal job. Normal life,” she said. “I know I made the right decision.”
______________________________________________________
New York Times
April 10, 2008
For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality
By JEFF BAILEY
IRVING, Tex. — Among the jobs little boys dream of — policeman, fireman, bulldozer driver — airline pilot long held the added virtue of satisfying grown-up dreams: pay that reached $300,000 a year, 20 days a month off work, the prestige of one day commanding a $200 million airplane, and a lush retirement at 60.
But the airline industry’s financial collapse this decade did away with much of that, leaving thousands of young men — and increasingly women — chasing a dream toward a disappointing reality.
“My wife thinks I’m nuts,” said Jason Captain, 32, of Fort Worth who left the Navy last November, walking away from $75,000-a-year lieutenant’s pay for flying military brass in and out of Guantánamo Bay.
He started training last month to fly a 76-seat regional jet for a Northwest Airlines subsidiary and expects to make about $21,000 his first year. Like most airline pilots, Mr. Captain had his heart set on flying “ever since I was a little kid,” he said. “I can’t see myself in an office.”
In recent years, he and his wife, June, were in the odd position of saving part of his military pay so they and their two sons could afford to have him work in the private sector. It could take him a decade to work his way back up to his former income.
He hopes, of course, to jump ultimately to the big jets at Northwest Airlines, where the most senior pilots can still make more than $150,000 a year, but there is no guarantee he will get there.
And, with the airline industry ready to go into another swoon because of high fuel prices, Mr. Captain and other junior pilots could find themselves furloughed.
“You’re much better off going into plumbing, from a purely financial perspective,” said Ed Grogan, a financial planner in Gig Harbor, Wash., who has pilots among his clients.
The military is turning out fewer pilots, so aspiring aviators increasingly attend private flight schools, emerging with as much as $150,000 in student debt. Student loan payments can exceed $1,000 a month.
After Sept. 11, 2001, the biggest domestic airlines reduced their fleets by hundreds of planes, so they needed fewer pilots. And through actual and threatened bankruptcies, airlines managed to cut pilot pay by 30 percent or more. Many pilots lost big parts of their pensions. Work hours increased.
Certainly, top pay of $200,000 a year at the biggest airlines, down from $300,000, is still a nice living.
But cuts at big airlines were just the beginning of the decline in pilot careers. Regional airlines, which pay far less than hub-and-spoke carriers even after the pay cuts, expanded to handle much of the flying that bigger airlines had abandoned. Many new pilot jobs are like the one Mr. Captain is taking, with a rock-bottom starting wage that creeps slowly toward $100,000 a year.
Poor pay and fewer big-airline jobs to move up to have led to fewer applicants, creating a pilot shortage that is most acute overseas but is also felt here.
Regional airlines have had to reduce hiring standards drastically. Earlier this decade, they could insist on a candidate’s having at least 1,500 hours of total flight time before an interview. Today, that minimum is 500 hours at many regional carriers. The decline is contributing to safety concerns among some experts.
The seniority system — a new pilot starts at the bottom at most airlines, earning the lowest pay and getting the worst shifts — limits job-hopping. So choosing the right employer the first time around is crucial. Moving from first officer, the right seat, to captain, the left seat, brings the biggest leap in pay and status.
Thus, Mr. Captain, who looks forward to being called Captain Captain, turned down a job at American Eagle Airlines, the regional division of American Airlines. It initially paid better, but the wait to upgrade to captain is six and a half years. At the Northwest regional carrier, Compass, which is growing, he could make captain in as little as one year.
But things change. Network carriers like United Airlines and Delta Air Lines hire regional carriers, which are separate companies, to fly feeder routes from smaller cities into hub airports. But the big airlines renegotiate contracts every few years, often switching carriers to reduce costs. That means today’s fast-growing regional airline could be laying off pilots tomorrow.
“It’s a nightmare,” said Kit Darby, who retired a year ago as a United pilot and runs a pilot job fair business, Air Inc.
Some pilots leave the business. Paul Rice, a vice president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a pilots union, said that in previous decades nearly 100 percent of furloughed pilots came back when temporary layoffs ended. Since Sept. 11, 2001, though, 30 to 35 percent did not return when offered their old jobs.
At Mesa Air Group, a big regional carrier, 784 pilots left last year, some moving up to hub-and-spoke network carriers, some moving laterally to other regional airlines and about 10 percent leaving the business altogether, said Michael Jayson, until recently the pilots union chief at Mesa. Turnover is high at some other regional airlines, too.
Todd Lehmacher, 39, learned to fly as a teenager and worked a variety of airline jobs in crew scheduling and as a ticket pricing specialist and flight attendant while accumulating the flying hours to be a pilot. “It was something I just had to do,” he said.
He was hired by Mesa in August 2005, but long hours and unpleasant relations between pilots and management wore on him.
He sometimes slept on the plane during late shifts — “camping trips,” pilots call them — that required him to fly again early the next morning. He said he often worked a 13-hour day to get in five hours of flying time, the only hours pilots are paid for.
Mr. Lehmacher quit last September and runs a travel agency in Phoenix that sells cruise trips to airline workers.
Mesa officials did not return phone calls seeking comment.
Samantha Negley did not get the flying bug until a boyfriend took her up in a four-seat Cessna in 1999. It was a bright day in San Luis Obispo, Calif., and they flew over farms, across the beach and over the ocean. “He let me take the controls. It was amazing,” said Ms. Negley, who is now 30.
She graduated from college that year with a journalism degree and spent four years working odd jobs — tending bar, substitute teaching, tutoring — to save money for flight lessons. Landings were her favorite part.
In an essay for a $1,500 scholarship she won to supplement her flight school costs, Ms. Negley said she planned a life around flying. “In five years, I plan to be a captain at Mesa Airlines,” she wrote. “In 10 years, I plan to be a first officer with a major airline, awaiting my chance to upgrade.”
She was accepted at a New Mexico flight school that feeds pilot candidates to Mesa and was hired in 2004. “The day I found out was like the best day ever,” she said. Making about $15,000 initially, and saddled with $50,000 of school debt, she moved in with her sister in Washington, flying out of Dulles Airport.
A typical day had her up at 5 a.m., at the airport by 8 a.m., and making three flights spread out so that the last one landed about 10 p.m. Then it was wait for a hotel shuttle; sleep; get up again at 6 a.m.
She also worked overnight shifts, sleeping across a row of seats and being awakened by a gate agent in time to brush her teeth in the plane lavatory and tuck her shirt in before passengers came aboard. “It was crazy,” she said.
“I was enjoying the landings. I was living my whole life for those three minutes a day.” Otherwise, she thought, “this is the worst life ever.”
She quit last July and went to work at Mattel, where she writes copy for packaging of Hot Wheels and other toys. She makes more money and has whittled her student debt down to $30,000.
She knows she will be home every night in Long Beach to walk the dogs. She plays beach volleyball. And became engaged in February. “Normal job. Normal life,” she said. “I know I made the right decision.”
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Some day, they'll call him.....Captain Captain. "Captain Captain is in command today....." 
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
We have clearance, Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?Doc wrote:Some day, they'll call him.....Captain Captain. "Captain Captain is in command today....."
I don't know -- I'm one that's about to start a career in this field, and this article doesn't change too much. So the times are tough now -- of course they are, we're in an economic depression. But it will get better -- it always has -- heck, look how bad a job in this industry looked on September 12th, 2001... It's all about how you want to live your life. Yes, I definitely could earn more money in probably any other industry, but would I be happy with myself? Probably not. I'd rather give this industry a shot, than spend my life always regretting not having followed my dreams.
Last edited by C-FKLY on Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cessna 182 | C-FKLY
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Required reading indeed!
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
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Embraer190
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Good read. If only more "future pilots" read this article before sinking tens of thousands of dollars into their training.
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Flying Nutcracker
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Maybe, juuuuuuuuuuust maybe a few already employed pilots would find this article a nice little reality check.....
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
..thoughts running throught my mind is well sure an airline pilot works only 10days a month but i have heard that they are usually "on call" for the other 20 days. is this generally true? Can anyone explain this?
Next, I always thought pilots work very little and now i have even saw a documentary where pilots are so fatigued and even dazeing off at the controls?
All i can think is mabe they work alot of hours PER DAY, not per month? Comments anyone?
Next, I always thought pilots work very little and now i have even saw a documentary where pilots are so fatigued and even dazeing off at the controls?
All i can think is mabe they work alot of hours PER DAY, not per month? Comments anyone?
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
They could always head up to YYB with 15K in their jeans.......
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. ._
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
This article is like an article on how crappy marriage is and how half of all marriages fail.
There's no way of reasoning a person out of getting married, and there's no way of reasoning a person out of becoming a commercial pilot.
You just have to find out the hard way some times.
-istp
There's no way of reasoning a person out of getting married, and there's no way of reasoning a person out of becoming a commercial pilot.
You just have to find out the hard way some times.
-istp
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Doc, get over it already...you sound like a skipping record.
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Letterhead
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Dan:
I have been at this for 20 years. It has not gotten better it has gotten worse each and every year. If your job is the most important thing to you then by all means saddle up and ride. However, if you want to have a family, a nice home, and a life you had better have a back-up plan. My unsolicited advice is:
1. ensure that you have, or obtain a relevant post secondary education;
2. never be an F/O if you can avoid it. SIC time isn't valuable in the employment market;
3. don't succumb to operational pressure;
4. read R. v. Tayfel for judicial consideration of your obligations as a Captain;
5. avoid working for unionized employers (if possible).
Your post secondary education should be in a field in which you can earn a decent living. You may choose university, but don't discount the trades (everyone needs a good carpenter and they are worth their weight in gold.) Having a practical skill outside of being able to operate an airplane will serve you well.
Good luck,
Letterhead
I have been at this for 20 years. It has not gotten better it has gotten worse each and every year. If your job is the most important thing to you then by all means saddle up and ride. However, if you want to have a family, a nice home, and a life you had better have a back-up plan. My unsolicited advice is:
1. ensure that you have, or obtain a relevant post secondary education;
2. never be an F/O if you can avoid it. SIC time isn't valuable in the employment market;
3. don't succumb to operational pressure;
4. read R. v. Tayfel for judicial consideration of your obligations as a Captain;
5. avoid working for unionized employers (if possible).
Your post secondary education should be in a field in which you can earn a decent living. You may choose university, but don't discount the trades (everyone needs a good carpenter and they are worth their weight in gold.) Having a practical skill outside of being able to operate an airplane will serve you well.
Good luck,
Letterhead
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
letterhead,
why not work for a unionized company?
why not work for a unionized company?
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Driving Rain
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Huh?5. avoid working for unionized employers (if possible).
I agree with most of you 1st post Leatherhead
I've been in a union now for 28 years. I know all unions are not created equal. I believe I'm a member of a good one
At retirement I'll have a pension with a COLA, drug, dental, glasses, private hospitalization. Better yet I work under a collective agreement that sets rules that everyone follows.
I learned long ago that hard work, honesty, and integrity will only get you screwed. A good union can keep it honest and everyone gets a fare share.
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
I learned long ago that hard work, honesty, and integrity will only get you screwed. A good union can keep it honest and everyone gets a fare share.
28 years in a union, as a Pilot? Just curious. I couldn't disagree more, with your statement.
Unions bring on stupidity, like CUPE's F/A case for "work of equal value" to Pilots, because we work in the same environment.
F/A's are predominately female and Pilot's are predominately male - so the Airlines discriminate.
A glaring example of "Union" mentality.
Any other walk of life; hard work, honesty and integrity are rewarded!
28 years in a union, as a Pilot? Just curious. I couldn't disagree more, with your statement.
Unions bring on stupidity, like CUPE's F/A case for "work of equal value" to Pilots, because we work in the same environment.
F/A's are predominately female and Pilot's are predominately male - so the Airlines discriminate.
A glaring example of "Union" mentality.
Any other walk of life; hard work, honesty and integrity are rewarded!
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linecrew
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Sweet! When I retire, I too want to be in a comfy hospital bed, wearing cool glasses drugged up and smiling at the pretty nurses with my perfect teeth having a coke!Driving Rain wrote:At retirement I'll have a pension with a COLA, drug, dental, glasses, private hospitalization.
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Driving Rain
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Yes 28 years in the same union.Johnny767 wrote:I learned long ago that hard work, honesty, and integrity will only get you screwed. A good union can keep it honest and everyone gets a fare share.
28 years in a union, as a Pilot? Just curious. I couldn't disagree more, with your statement.
F/A's are predominately female and Pilot's are predominately male - so the Airlines discriminate.
A glaring example of "Union" mentality.
Any other walk of life; hard work, honesty and integrity are rewarded!
So what! You want to know what's really stupid? Anyone who would say unions bring on stupidity based on the fact that CUPE made an attempt to increase members wages based on work of equal value arguement. (BTW CUPE is Not my union)Unions bring on stupidity, like CUPE's F/A case for "work of equal value" to Pilots, because we work in the same environment.
I've already said not all uinons are equal. I've been working in Aviation for 40 years. 12 of those years I wasn't covered by a union. I've been in 4 other unions in my working career so I do have a good idea what's good and bad out there. How many unions you been in to make outrages statements like that?
Only 15% of the Canadian work force is unionized yet everytime someone needs a whipping boy they trot out the unions. It gets a little old and is usually made by stupid people.
linecrew wrote
Why do you think you'll be in a hospital bed when you retire? Are you clairvoyant?Sweet! When I retire, I too want to be in a comfy hospital bed, wearing cool glasses drugged up and smiling at the pretty nurses with my perfect teeth having a coke!
A COLA in this instance means COST OF LIVING ALLOWANCE. As the Cost of Living increases so does the value of my pension. It's inflation proof. My pension is a defined benefit plan that's based on years of service and salary at retirement.
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
It really boils down to reality versus passion. Which one do you value more?
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Letterhead
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Most working people have rejected trade unionism. When you join a union you give up your right to bargain for yourself and place your well being in the hands of your peers. As an individualist and libertarian I loathe the idea of placing my well being in the hands of a Master Executive Counsel. The person who knows what is best for me and my family is me and my family, not some socialist. It comes down to what type of person you are and what you believe in. Most thoughtful trade union members do not believe in capitalism, nor do they believe in rewarding intelligent risk taking. As a measure of their member's value, pilot unions are only concerned with an individuals years of service . Union members are, in practice, socialists and belong to a socialist organization in which they are often asked to subordinate their self interest for the "greater good" - and that happens to be what ever their leaders decide it is.
Ironically, North American pilot unions work to destroy any market for passenger jet captains, thereby limiting their members ability to command a wage premium. There is a pilot shortage based upon most conservative forecasts of air travel market. ALPA and there juniors work to ensure that North American pilots cannot extract compensation from the marketplace based upon their intelligence, experience, skill and education. Most pilots, within seniority systems, fear competition, merit based promotion, and a free market for their services. I am not sure why, based on the evidence this fear appears irrational. In Canada as between Westjet (non-unionized) and Air Canada (Unionized) Westjet pilots have a better compensation package. Even Skyservice (non-unionized) pays the same or better on the A320 as Air Canada does. Have a look at KFC the compensation is fairly equal among its Captains, but the junior captains do all of the lousy difficult trips and the senior ones work about 2/3's the amount of the junior Captains for the same wage.
And of course, the true test of any union is how they treat their junior members - ask any flat pay Air Canada pilot if they can feed their family on their first 2 years salary. That wage is negotiated by the union for the "benefit" of those junior members. Similarly, JAZZ, an ALPA franchise negotiates wages for its pilots well below that of most similarly skilled (on a qualitative basis) non-unionized workers. However, the foregoing is just my opinion and ultimately your support for trade unionism comes down to one of economic philosophy - are you a capitalist or socialist? Do you believe you have what it takes to pull yourself up by your bootstraps or do you need a hand?
Personally, I hope that Mr. Harper and his Conservatives get a few more months in office to make the changes to the Canada Labour Code he promised. He is of course, proposing to fundamentally limit the ability of trade unions, in federally regulated industries like aviation, to engage in industrial action, and it is about time.
LH
Ironically, North American pilot unions work to destroy any market for passenger jet captains, thereby limiting their members ability to command a wage premium. There is a pilot shortage based upon most conservative forecasts of air travel market. ALPA and there juniors work to ensure that North American pilots cannot extract compensation from the marketplace based upon their intelligence, experience, skill and education. Most pilots, within seniority systems, fear competition, merit based promotion, and a free market for their services. I am not sure why, based on the evidence this fear appears irrational. In Canada as between Westjet (non-unionized) and Air Canada (Unionized) Westjet pilots have a better compensation package. Even Skyservice (non-unionized) pays the same or better on the A320 as Air Canada does. Have a look at KFC the compensation is fairly equal among its Captains, but the junior captains do all of the lousy difficult trips and the senior ones work about 2/3's the amount of the junior Captains for the same wage.
And of course, the true test of any union is how they treat their junior members - ask any flat pay Air Canada pilot if they can feed their family on their first 2 years salary. That wage is negotiated by the union for the "benefit" of those junior members. Similarly, JAZZ, an ALPA franchise negotiates wages for its pilots well below that of most similarly skilled (on a qualitative basis) non-unionized workers. However, the foregoing is just my opinion and ultimately your support for trade unionism comes down to one of economic philosophy - are you a capitalist or socialist? Do you believe you have what it takes to pull yourself up by your bootstraps or do you need a hand?
Personally, I hope that Mr. Harper and his Conservatives get a few more months in office to make the changes to the Canada Labour Code he promised. He is of course, proposing to fundamentally limit the ability of trade unions, in federally regulated industries like aviation, to engage in industrial action, and it is about time.
LH
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Flying Nutcracker
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
So..... you're pro union then...???
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Letterhead
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Sure. I also think Judy Rebick is really neat.
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ragbagflyer
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
That may be but there's more to it than the fact that AC pilots are unionized. Doesn't Westjet have an employee association that in many ways acts as a union? Not to mention the employee ownership. I'm not necessarily pro union but in many ways having a union gets rid of all the backstabbing and ass kissing that goes on to get a promotion at a non unionized company with dozens to hundreds of pilots. It's hard to evaluate captains based on ability when they are for the most part out there working alone or with an F/O.Letterhead wrote:In Canada as between Westjet (non-unionized) and Air Canada (Unionized) Westjet pilots have a better compensation package.
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." - Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes)
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Driving Rain
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Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
Unions aren't for everyone but just a quick look at the ranks of pilots in Canada who drop off the radar in their 50's is amazing. Most fail a medical. What do you think the chances of a 58 year old pilot with medical issues getting another job anywhere are? A degree will be of little value finding meaningful employment once you reach your 50's. If you want a fall back position if your aviation career tanks a better bet would be to have a trade and be proficient at that trade. How many among our ranks can claim dual proficiencies after devoting a career to aviation? I know a few but not many.
I'm in a union and I don't have the right to strike although other members of my union do. We've made better gains by going to binding arbitration. When you walk a picket line you never ever get back what you've lost.
If I have a medical issue now in my career I don't have to worry about a pay check coming in. I have long term disability how many non-union employees have that. Sure you can buy loss of licence insurance but have you priced that out lately?
I can't tell you the number of friends of mine who have lost everything when they lost their medicals. It's very sad and we all know someone who this has happened to.
Yes I can name members of my union who earn far more than I think their worth because of the work of equal value legislation and standards that's been applied in an effort to balance the differences between male and female workers. I don't care about what I can do nothing about. More power to them I say. Who said life is fair?
I know guys that had no pot to piss in after devoting their life to being pilots. They had to work right up to 65 or 70 and died within months or sometimes weeks of the time they stopped flying.
At least if I loose my medical and licence I'll not have to worry about where my next pay check is coming from. If I die my family will also be taken care of. Piece of mind is worth a great deal to me. Not having to worry about the what if's is a quality of life issue. Would I have this if I wasn't in a union? Maybe but how many pilots do you know that have this who are not represented. Be honest.
I'm in a union and I don't have the right to strike although other members of my union do. We've made better gains by going to binding arbitration. When you walk a picket line you never ever get back what you've lost.
If I have a medical issue now in my career I don't have to worry about a pay check coming in. I have long term disability how many non-union employees have that. Sure you can buy loss of licence insurance but have you priced that out lately?
I can't tell you the number of friends of mine who have lost everything when they lost their medicals. It's very sad and we all know someone who this has happened to.
Yes I can name members of my union who earn far more than I think their worth because of the work of equal value legislation and standards that's been applied in an effort to balance the differences between male and female workers. I don't care about what I can do nothing about. More power to them I say. Who said life is fair?
I know guys that had no pot to piss in after devoting their life to being pilots. They had to work right up to 65 or 70 and died within months or sometimes weeks of the time they stopped flying.
At least if I loose my medical and licence I'll not have to worry about where my next pay check is coming from. If I die my family will also be taken care of. Piece of mind is worth a great deal to me. Not having to worry about the what if's is a quality of life issue. Would I have this if I wasn't in a union? Maybe but how many pilots do you know that have this who are not represented. Be honest.
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fingersmac
- Rank 7
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- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:17 pm
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
A quarter of the Canadian workforce is unionized so I hardly see it being rejected by working people. Furthermore, when entering into a union you join a collective that has much more bargaining power than an individual.Letterhead wrote:Most working people have rejected trade unionism. When you join a union you give up your right to bargain for yourself and place your well being in the hands of your peers.
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Letterhead
- Rank 1
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- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:06 am
Re: For Pilots Dreams Run Into Reality-NY Times Article
If 25% of the Canadian workforce is belongs to a union, then 75% of the workforce does not. Therefore, the majority (75%) have rejected trade unionism. The posters that have supported trade unions have all expressed feelings of vulnerability as the reasons for supporting trade unions. I would suggest that most workers are vulnerable whether inside or outside a union. No one is going to take care of you and your family but you. However, if it makes you sleep better at night to wrap yourself in your perceived "security" blanket and think you are safe so be it. My experience, from traveling throughout the world, is that life can be tough and you need to look after you and yours because no one is going to do that work for you.
