A few questions about the CPA with Jazz.

[600RVR]

"Merged List" So what you are saying is all Jazz to the end of the list. What about the ongoing Air Ontario Law suit. That might have something to do with it. This mostly has to do with Air Canada pilots lossing jobs if thats the case then mainline should take over the Jazz 705 flying as they have the same sze A/C.

[RFN]

I am only one man, but I don't have a problem with the Big Kids on top and Jazz on the bottom.

The lawsuit should not be a problem (rose coloured glasses again!). That's not something that involves even 10% of Jazz pilots. It only shows one more reason why we should be co-operating, rather than playing "Pokey Chesty" all the time!

It seems (I don't know all the details of course) that BOTH sides have been acting like children for a long time.

Maybe now we can get past it and move on.

Love how everything looks rosy with these glasses.

[TopperHarley]

You know, sometimes I get the feeling that pilots on both sides of this matter hope to see the other side get screwed over, which is really sad.

It seems there is growing divisions between us and the sad part is that there will NEVER be any growth or changes until this comes to an end.

As a Jazz pilot, I DONT WANT to be flying the Airbus or EMJ if that means a bunch of mainline pilots are going to lose their job and Ill be doing the same work for a lot lower wage. No thanks. You'll never grow a forrest by uprooting one tree and planting another one. Management may think to themselves "let's transfer the buses and EMJs to Jazz, they'll fly them for cheaper and we'll make more money... give the dashes to GGN and CMA, they'll fly those for cheaper too, which means more money...." I may be naive, but I hope I can have faith that ALPA and ACPA will both do their jobs to protect the collective interests of the organization as a whole. I wish both unions could work together to solve the problems we're dealing with. Instead, some times it seems like one side wants the other to fail. But there's nothing funny about someone losing their job or seniority when they've spent years to get to where they are. Both unions need to come together and decide what is best for everyone, not just what's best for their own side.

[tonysoprano]

2 to tango indeed. so why does it continue to be so difficult to have any meaningful dialogue with ACPA regarding a merged list?

I don't know if you are aware but there has been meaningful dialogue. But it seems that even after all this time, the merged list, among other things, is still an obstacle. We do have a merged list. Any Jazz pilot that wants a mainline job gets a seniority number. The problem is, some Jazz guys want that number to be above some mainline pilots. Hasn't happened. Won't happen. Let's move on.

[Brick Head]

This thread just makes me shake my head.

People please start to wake up. Decisions and expectations need to live within the realm of reality. We are watching the Americanization of regional service in Canada.

If anyone thinks AC will bring 705's back to the mainline they have their head in the sand. If they leave Jazz at some point in time it will be to another CPA provider.

If anyone thinks AC will just keep paying the exorbitant CPA rates to Jazz, imposed on them by ACE, they too have their head in the sand. They will either negotiate better rates or wait to completely drop it in 2015.

If anyone thinks another union is going to save their bacon they too have their head in the sand. The narrow focus of unions is what has brought us here. Unions have a duty to their own members ONLY! It is the way we have organized ourselves. It is this very narrow focus that has been so well manipulated by companies in the first place. Jazz will continue to do what is best for Jazz and ACPA will continue to do what is best for ACPA.

Merger?????????? CRIKEY! Head in the sand! The two companies are no more related than AC and Cara at this point in time.

[. .]

Apparently the global solution talks between ALPA and ACPA were going quite well before Jazz was spun off as an income trust. Having Jazz spun off removed any possibility of having common employer and thus a merged list of any kind.

[RFN]

Hey Tony,

Correct me please if I am wrong, but a Jazz pilot doesn't just get a seniority number at mainline. All we get is an interview. Same as anyone off the street.

In those interviews, by far most were turned down, while many of the pilots hired during the last hiring spree were hired "off the street".

Having a guaranteed interview ended up working against some of us (Ok, I mean me). I was at Jazz for about 2 weeks when I got the email offering an Air Canada interview. Being new, I still wasn't sure what my options were, but they turned out to be quite clear: Having started at Jazz, I was told I could no longer attend the interview until my turn came up, which of course never did, since so few Jazz guys were being interviewed at all. This happened to more than just me, I'm sure.

Very few people I've spoken to are of the opinion that a simple merged list should take place, Oh yeah, it'd be sweet, but not realistic. Any more than having Georgian's pilots merging with Jazz's list. The idea, as far as I know, would be to have a list under Air Canada's, with a way to move from one to the other when the time came. That's all.

All the failed attempts at Global Solutions have accomplished (in my opinion) is to entrench the "beaten red-headed stepchild" syndrome at Jazz. We see our friends, ex-coworkers, and F/Os hired at mainline, and we are jealous. Period. We know that they will have access to various types of aircraft and destinations during the run of their career. We know that they will be doing far better financially for the rest of their life etc. etc. It's only natural to want to play with the big kids, and it sucks that it may have hinged on a two week difference.


I'm with C-HRIS on this one. I don't want to TAKE an Air Canada Pilot's Job, or airplane just so I can do it for cheaper. Anymore than I want Georgian's pilot's to take my job and my plane for cheaper.

But the current set-up will not benefit either group.

Endless, does the removal of the common employer mean that it is illegal to join the list?

[. .]

RFN: I'm by no means an expert on this at all. My take was that before Jazz was spun off, it would have been legally easy to form some kind of common list or union. This was the goal of the global solution, to prevent one side from fighting the other side, to allow us to both make gains together.

RFN & C-HRIS: Just because the AC guys wear a cap with 4 less letters on it than you do doesn't make them any different. Just as there is a SMALL contingent of bitter guys at Jazz who'd love nothing more than to take "Air Canada" flying, there is the same SMALL contingent of guys at AC that would love to take back all the RJ flying. The vast majority on both sides from what I've seen is content with what they currently have, and would certainly like to make inroads to stop the fighting.

[WetJet]

Well...

Divide and conquer at it's best.

I hope you guys can get your shit together and put up a united front this spring. Forget the fight over the 2 dozen 75-90 seat jets that could go either way. Start working on making the 5000 pilot jobs that both of your unions represent the envy of the industry.

[Embraer190]

For the sake of ALL JAZZ PILOTS, I hope we DO NOT see the AMERICANIZATION of the Canadian regional airline service. For years salaries have gone down and the work load has gone up. When is it going to stop? When we're earning $17.5k a year like the rookie regional pilots in the U.S.? I think Jazz pilots are worth much more than that and provide a very valuable service to Canadians.

[tonysoprano]

RFN.
"All we get is an interview". Well, I'd say that's more than most get. What happens at the interview is in your hands. Not AC, not ACPA. Stop and think for a moment what a merged list would look like. The very senior Jazz group, the ones who have been pushing for this all along would have the immediate benefit. The junior guys would have to wait years to get that mainline job and the way hiring goes these days, it may never even happen for some of you. I'd say you have a better chance now if your junior. How does this benefit the group as a whole? The sad part in all this is that the merged list will never happen but the animossity will live on untill those seniors are gone. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure the merged list is even part of the equation anymore. After been struck down in court, the last resort is now a lawsuit. As already stated, ultimately each group will strive to get the best deal for their own side. We are now more apart than ever before given the structure and two different representations. I wish I could be more upbeat about this but there really isn't much hope. It is what it is.

[mattedfred]

the concern over the list is only one part of the issue. we should be more concerned with merging pilot group so we can end the whipsawing. if we continue to operate as separate pilot groups then scope language and protectionism will continue to erode each of our T&Cs.

[tonysoprano]

Yep. Very true. It should have been done long ago. I don't think ACPA has any appetite for another merger these days.

[teacher]

As a Jazz pilot who really has no intention of applying or moving to AC I couldn't care less about merged lists and what not. My issue is in the fight for flying. One group trying to steal the other's flying. Now, it goes both ways but when it comes down to it Jazz is a regional airline and AC is a longhaul international career. That doesn't mean though that I don't want career advancement and fly a dash my whole life. It's unreasonable to want Jazz to only fly dashs but also for Jazz to "pick up" the larger aircraft flying from AC, I get it.

But like someone said earlier the small percentage of pilots in each group will never let these old issues die and unfortunatly will ruin it for everyone. I just hope that some kind of united front can be had this spring although I doubt it can be, I hope.

[TopperHarley]

RFN & C-HRIS: Just because the AC guys wear a cap with 4 less letters on it than you do doesn't make them any different. Just as there is a SMALL contingent of bitter guys at Jazz who'd love nothing more than to take "Air Canada" flying, there is the same SMALL contingent of guys at AC that would love to take back all the RJ flying. The vast majority on both sides from what I've seen is content with what they currently have, and would certainly like to make inroads to stop the fighting.

I agree with this completely. Maybe the tone of my post was a little more millitant than I thought, but I wasn't trying to bash one side or the other. I was just trying to point out that I wish the fighting would stop. I dont want to add fuel to the fire or keep the war going in any way. I really don't know what a good solution is to this problem, I just wish there was one.

[Brick Head]

For the sake of ALL JAZZ PILOTS, I hope we DO NOT see the AMERICANIZATION of the Canadian regional airline service. For years salaries have gone down and the work load has gone up. When is it going to stop? When we're earning $17.5k a year like the rookie regional pilots in the U.S.? I think Jazz pilots are worth much more than that and provide a very valuable service to Canadians.

I absolutely agree.

I really think we need to wake up to what is going on around us. And not just for the sake of Jazz pilots. We think we have seen the detrimental effects of whipsaw so far? Hold on to your hat.

First the mainline carrier whipsaws the different companies competing for the CPA during renewals. This is the whole point of using CPA providers rather than your own regional carrier. The lowest common denominator driving down labor costs. These companies are so lean that there is only one place to lower costs. Wages.

Next the mainline carrier whipsaws the winner of the CPA with the mainline pilot group. Justifying an E190 wage when the CPA provider has Jazz's wages is not hard. Try justifying it when the CPA provider is Messa or Skywest. I can tell you what you get. You get USair's E190 wages.

To make things easier for the mainline carrier you will even get pilots jumping on the "pay us less" band wagon. Declaring the DC-9 replacement not really a DC-9 replacement. It is a regional jet they will say. We want to be paid less for flying it. We don't think it deserves the old standard.

And the race to the bottom accelerates.

[Dark Helmet]

This thread just makes me shake my head.

People please start to wake up. Decisions and expectations need to live within the realm of reality. We are watching the Americanization of regional service in Canada.

If anyone thinks AC will bring 705's back to the mainline they have their head in the sand. If they leave Jazz at some point in time it will be to another CPA provider.

If anyone thinks AC will just keep paying the exorbitant CPA rates to Jazz, imposed on them by ACE, they too have their head in the sand. They will either negotiate better rates or wait to completely drop it in 2015.

If anyone thinks another union is going to save their bacon they too have their head in the sand. The narrow focus of unions is what has brought us here. Unions have a duty to their own members ONLY! It is the way we have organized ourselves. It is this very narrow focus that has been so well manipulated by companies in the first place. Jazz will continue to do what is best for Jazz and ACPA will continue to do what is best for ACPA.

Merger?????????? CRIKEY! Head in the sand! The two companies are no more related than AC and Cara at this point in time.

Brick Head

Good post but no offence you make it sound so futile. Like there is no solution to our problems.

I know you are being realistic, but like management we can evolve too no?

Just like our unions are poised to do what is best for us, Management will do what is best for the Shareholders, and themselves. We both know that the employees are not in their best interests.

So what do we do as a group them? Accept the stauts quo, sit by fighting among ourselves for the "lesser of the 2 evils" while management erodes our industry, and makes significant gains in the process?

KAG

Probably not your intent, But I think you've stirred the pot alright

[Brick Head]

Brick Head

Good post but no offence you make it sound so futile. Like there is no solution to our problems.

I know you are being realistic, but like management we can evolve too no?

Just like our unions are poised to do what is best for us, Management will do what is best for the Shareholders, and themselves. We both know that the employees are not in their best interests.

So what do we do as a group them? Accept the stauts quo, sit by fighting among ourselves for the "lesser of the 2 evils" while management erodes our industry, and makes significant gains in the process?

No offense taken. It is depressing. We need to wake up to it. Sometimes a sharp slap in the face wakes people up.

Before you can fix a problem you have to identify and accept that there is a problem that requires fixing. Accepting that we need to change is our biggest hurdle. Our problem is the way we are structured. A unions mandate is to their members only and not the common good of all professional pilots.

Look at ALPA in the US. Even under one umbrella, excluding AA, ALPA failed to stop the erosion of the industry long before the chapter 11's of recent years. Why, because the MEC's operated as a bunch of independent empires never pulling for the common good. When the chapter 11's of the last few years happened the vast wage disparity between regional and mainline came home to roost at the mainline carriers.

The reason AC's wages did not take the same clobbering as south of the boarder, is simply because the drastic wage disparity here in
Canada, did not exist at the time. I cringe at the thought of being force to compete for the E190 during CCAA, with the likes of Skywest or Messa.

Anyone in denial about wages drawing down to the lowest common denominator when a company hits the skids needs to look no further than what is happening right now with the big 3. The US gov't has demanded labor match the Japanese imports compensation level as a condition of help. Canada's industry minister chimed in yesterday with the same message for the Canadian side of the big 3.

We need one union. One voice. One MEC. One national seniority list. And most importantly, and probably most controversial, we need to rid ourselves of our immobility. Our self imposed immobility, IOW separate seniority lists at separate companies, prevents us from carrying our skill set elsewhere. The companies know it and use it against us.

We need everyone's collective agreement to reference a single national seniority list rather than the in house list we have now.

A college of pilots is a step in the right direction. But in the scope of what we need to accomplish as a profession, only a baby step.

So do you think we have the testicular fortitude to make it happen? Do you think enough people see the writing on the wall? Do you think pilots at WJ, AC, Transat ect will buy into the idea of mobility? Do you think individual MEC's will voluntarily give up the power to chart their own course?

[tonysoprano]

KAG

Probably not your intent, But I think you've stirred the pot alright

No worries. On this forum, we don't hide things. We don't need to take it to "internal channels".

[DaveP]

Tony,

I really don't understand why you are so facetious. If an employee want's change, who would you go to? I would expect your employer. Not a forum to solicit unwanted opinion from employees of your competition who have no interest in your successes.

Just my point of view. Too hot in this kitchen, yes I'm done. I'm not guessing insecurity, I know it is by your statements.

Dave.

[tonysoprano]

Dave.
Um, I think you might be missing the point, still. This is not where change occurs. It might help. But I don't think you're showing us too much wipper snipper intelligence by stating the obvious. On this forum, we are all free to discuss what ever we want as long as it's topic related. Nobody is being told to stop airing out any dirty laundry and taking it somewhere else. Gee, you're right though, we will take it to our employer, really. Yep, that's how it works at other airlines too!! Funny you mention insecurity. That's what was going through my mind about you hushing your troops down. Hey, no hard feelings partner. Just my opinion too.

[. .]

Dave: I agree with almost everything you say. The one exception being your line about others not wanting your success. We're all linked way too close to hope for anything but the best for each other. If your contract goes well this spring, we'll have something to point to. If ours goes very poorly, your employers will have something to reference as per wages. This synergy exists beyond just WJ/AC. CanJet, Transat, Sunwing all play a part in the general picture.

I realize this may be hard to believe. I want WestJet to make money, I want your business to grow and for you to be successful. I want Sunwing and CanJet to survive too. I believe it's time we stop looking out only for our companies, and begin to look at our profession as a whole.

[RFN]

I totally agree with Endless about focusing on supporting our profession as a whole.

This was referenced by Glen Quagmire (avcanada name, not the Real GQ) when he pointed out that Westjet's pilots should not be excited about the idea of driving down fares in the YZF-YEG market.

We ALL lose if wages are driven down through whip-sawing. Especially if AC starts looking to a regional model more like that of the US. ACPA guys will not be able to negotiate very effectively if there's a regional able to do some of their flying for cents on the dollar because they pay very poorly.

At Jazz it seems we are only hanging on to our "careers" by our fingernails. The company already began to lay the foundation for a driving down of the product with the much discussed "college program", and by repeated mentions of using some very low paying U.S. regionals as benchmarks for wage negotiations this year.

Out come the rose coloured glasses again.

Other than the small percentage of yahoos at each company (be it Jazz, Mainline, Westjet etc etc) most of us want what's best for all of our careers. I take more pride in the fact that I am better paid than the vast majority of US regional pilots, than I would if I was able to "steal" mainline's flying because I am cheaper.

Let's TRY to ignore the militant, myopic twits at our companies, and think more along the lines of pilots first.

[squawk 7600]

A merged seniority list would only mean good things between AC and Jazz. The ACPA guys should want it to keep Jazz from taking their flying through lower wages, and ALPA should want it to allow Jazz guys better career progression.

In my eyes, it's a no-brainer.

[teacher]

I'm new to this topic (relatively) but merged meaning 1 for 1 on terms of years of seniority or some kind of ratio? A few of the regionals in the US have flow through agreements like Mesaba with NorthWest I think, how do they work it? What was ALPA asking for and what was ACPA willing to accept? Being 2 seperate companies I don't agree with a 1 for 1 however some kind of compramise ought to be acceptable to both parties?