Mountain flying

[Darman]

My friend and i both want to fly out to B.C. around the middle of February for a week or so. We are both aviation students with approximately 150 hours each, based in Ontario. We were thinking about flying through VFR routes in Canada. Our CFI hasn't OK the flight yet, but told us to research weather and mountain training courses. Another option would be to follow an interstate though the rocks. We both know very little about mountain flying, only what we have been taught out of a book, ie clouds and winds. Any comments, ideas, stories, concerns would be greatly appreciated. Also if anyone knows any good mountain courses.
thank you

[shimmydampner]

Tip #1: You'll be hard pressed to find an interstate in this country.

Tip #2: Only go when the weather is good.

Tip #3: Don't screw around.

I only have about 500 hrs mountain though, there will be somebody who can go alot more in depth for you.

[HORUNNER]

Hey Hey, dont worry to much about the Mt's, but as you dont have any experience with them fly out to Calgary and see what the weather has in mind. I can still remember my first trip after getting my private singed. We were packed and ready to go 5 of us and 2 172's. I trailed my CFI for the better part of 3-4 hrs waiting for him to sign me off, fresh private lic. w/e hrs that was. The ink wasnt even dry and the engines were purring. We took off out of Boundry Bay and headin east, made it all the way to the coast, Sidney. Had the best trip met tons of people and heard the same story everywhere we went.

"If you can't get laid in 'X' town on a 'Y' night you can get laid anywhere" I swear we heard it in every town.

Now about the Mt's, if it isnt super sky clear dont even try it in the winter and if you haven't seen a valley or felt MT effect you dont want to play here. I have done them alot privately in 172's and light twins, you dont ever want to get caught there with any kind of weather with a low performance machine.

Now if it is sky clear, have at'er, hopefully you are bringing a gps, just head up to 12,000 and pointer for Cranbrook for fuel then on from there.

If the weather is crapped out when you make it to Calgary head up to Edmonton and see the mall. After that you can hop across the north meeting CPs, you should be looking for work soon. If you still need some adventure, go see polar bears in churchill on your way home.

If you do make it out, this will be a great trip that you wont forget. We logged 70hrs on our cross country, I had fresh private lic with two friends that were a couple weeks ahead of me, we all learnt so much more then if we had stayed in the circuit.

Good luck to you

[iflyforpie]

There is only so much you can learn from an online forum, so I will give you the essentials.

Watch the upper winds. Cranbrook's are a good indicator of what is going on in the eastern BC ranges. 30kts for your cruising altitude is the maximum I would recommend for someone who's never flown in the mountains before-but you are going to have a rough ride. Study the turbulence GFA for BC too. If there is red over Waterton NP, it is bumpy everywhere.

Only go up to 12,000 if the air is stable (stratiform clouds at that level) or winds are low. If it is unstable or mountain wave it will be more intense at higher altitudes and the head winds greatly reduce your speed. Head into the valleys and fly about 2000 above the valley floor on the windward side or as low as you can to allow a turn around, the air will be smoother.

The south route through the Crowsnest is wide, low, and usually clear, but it has the worst turbulence. The Kicking Horse is narrow and more often gets clouded in. My favorite way to go low level is the Bow valley to Vermillion Pass, then the Kootenay to Sinclair Pass by Radium Hot Springs.


The weather in February is usually excellent, with large high pressure systems and excellent visibility. It is one of my favorite times to fly in the mountains.

Best of luck.

[kevinsky18]

I base my float plane out of the BC interior so I can give you a bit of first hand info.

I've done the Canada cross country trip a couple of times. It's a great flight. Winter can be good for clear weather in the prairies though it will be cold. I won't go any further than that as you asked specifically about the mountains.

The fact that you want to come in mid February is a bad first sign. The winter months are a nasty time to try and cross the rocks especially all the way from one side to the next. For example I was trying to get from Kelowna to Chiliwack for two weeks in early January. When Kelowna was flyable Hope was socked in, when Hope was open Kelowna was fogged in. There was only one day when the weather was good enough and I hesitated and missed my window.

Keep in mind Kelowna is only an hour or so to Chiliwack so we aren't talking about trying to flight plan across vast distances it's just the nature of the rocks to be so variable.

On top of that the coast itself has been in a perpetual fogged state for weeks.

Although I would like to see you guys come through. 1 I suspect you won't make it to far into the BC rockies unless you really luck out and get some really unseasonably nice weather. 2) I can't imagine your flight school approving you to fly in the Rockies with out some sort of mountain check out. Maybe you could work out a deal to have another flight instructor meet you in Calgary and show you a few of the ropes.

Don't get me wrong I think your trip would be an awsome adventure. I just think the summer would be a better time to be flying in the mountains.

If you do come out, whether it's this spring or later in the year be sure to stop in Kelowna and I'll buy you guys doughnuts at Tim Hortons and we can swap flying stories.

[Northern Skies]

Bear in mind that I only have 100 in the rocks...

There are all kinds of little tips and tricks to help you out here, but one thing stands far above the rest.

Make sure you always have an out.

In other words, Make sure that you are always in a situation where you can turn toward lowering terrain. Don't fly straight up a slope and don't cross a pass head-on. Hug the side of the valley so you have room to turn around and be sure to cross everything on a 45, so you're never committed. If you always have somewhere to bail to, you won't be caught off guard when something happens that you didn't expect.

Take way, way more fuel than you need, so that you have options when the weather does something you didn't expect. When you know exactly where you are, write the time down on that spot on your map so you know how far you have gone if you get lost and need to backtrack. When you start down a valley, compare the direction of the valley to your compass to make sure you got the right one, sometimes the VNC is wrong about landmarks and may mislead you. Don't push the weather, you don't have many directions to run to. At the very least, be able to clear the highest pass on the route by 500'.

I miss the rocks, I'm a bit jealous. Have fun!

[xsbank]

Ho ., how do you manage to sit down with your private singed?

Probably more information than I need anyway.

[looproll]

Rule #1 of Mountain Flying: Don't fly into the Mountain.

But seriously, here is some reading:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa23.pdf

http://www.caa.govt.nz/safety_info/GAPs ... Flying.pdf

http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Flying/m ... flying.pdf

[Darman]

thanks for the replies. Great links, advice and comments. I appreciate your time. Real pilots offer so much more than what a book does. Also, in a VFR route, would it be better to be lower in it or higher?

[kevinsky18]

... in a VFR route, would it be better to be lower in it or higher?

oh boy . . .

[Just another canuck]

Also, in a VFR route, would it be better to be lower in it or higher?

The higher you are, the more outs you have...

[iflyforpie]

Yes and no. Remember there is nothing more useless than altitude above you. Given a choice I would fly as high as it was economical and possible to. But in a case of high winds it is better to be lower. The low level winds are less intense and the valley bottom tends to moderate downdrafts.

I've never rode a downdraft that slammed me into a flat valley bottom. The exception is during a mountain wave with low level rotor clouds (really ragged clouds, look like Cu but they aren't) or thunderstorms during which you shouldn't be flying in the mountains anyways.

However, you should never be so low as to not be able to turn around in the valley with a healthy margin. Fortunately for most flat-landers, if they are thinking about turning around they overestimate the amount of room that it takes a light plane to do so. What gets most people is that they don't think about turning around until it is too late.

Another thing that happens is people who haven't flown in the mountains tend to overestimate the ability of their aircraft to climb. This is either as a result of poor judgment or false-horizon (as someone who rarely ever sees a level horizon, I tend to forget this).

Finally, if you are going to go direct in the winter, make sure you have appropriate survival gear. SAR might not find you for days and even if they know where you are they might not be able to recover you due to weather. This makes the VFR routes preferable as most follow a major highway.

[180]

Wind blowing through the mountains is basically just like water flowing down a river.

Imagine water flowing down a river and hitting a boulder. The water is forced up the up-river (upwind, windward) side of the boulder, and as it crests the top of the boulder (the peak of a mountain), it tumbles and froths down the down-river side (downwind side, leeward) of that boulder creating dangerous whitewater (turbulence).

This is obviously a simplified comparison, but it's easier to envision water rushing down a river than wind howling through the mountains.

So you can imagine if you stick to the windward/upwind side of peaks, you will get lift, and if you find yourself on the downwind/leeward side of a peak, you get stuck in a downdraft. Cresting/crossing the peak of a mountain too close (and this proximity is determined by how strong the winds are) you'll find yourself in that very dangerous area of turbulence and get kicked around.

So always crest/cross the tops of peaks at at 45 degree angle so you are halfway turned into your out. If you're cresting a ridge flying directly at it at 90 degrees and you get caught in a downdraft, that's bad news.

Someone else mentioned it earlier, rule #1, always have an out!

Winds in the mountains are very unpredictable. Just because the weather report says upper winds are out of 270, it doesn't mean you won't find winds swirling from all different directions. Again, imagine a rushing river. As that water tumbles over multiple rocks (winds tumbling over a mountain range) you'll find back eddy's where the water swirls around the sides of rocks and flows back upstream!

I'm sure in your mountain flying books you've read and seen pictures of lenticular clouds. 'Lentees' are a big-ass warning sign in the sky. When you see lentees, you know it's howling up there.

Someone else mentioned to be cautious/aware when upper winds get up to 30 knots. Damn straight. You don't want to be messing around in the mountains in a 172 in those winds unless you are very familiar with mountain flying and the area.

As far as altitude goes, sometimes the winds will be howling at 9000 feet, and alpine lakes 6000 feet below you will be glassy. Just because it's windy at one altitude, doesn't mean it's windy everywhere. Get your upper winds and what lower winds you can find and interpolate. Sometimes on a 30 knot day at 12,000 feet, it will be a mellow 5-10 2500 feet AGL.

I'd wait out the winter to do your first trip across the mountains. But in the late Spring, Summer, and early Fall, either direct up high (usually leaves you more exposed in the event of forced landings) or following the VFR routes (less exposed with lots of highway and farmer's fields in the event of a forced situation) you should be fine.

Always carry a survival kit that you'd be happy camping with in the most un-hospitable of places. I carry a big duffle bag with a big orange tarp, tent, thermo-rest, down sleeping bag, down jacket, gloves, toque, warm clothes, good footwear, stove, pot, food, flashlight, good book etc. You get the picture. And I always dress and wear footwear appropriate for the worst case scenario. Which means not crossing the Rockies in shorts and flip flops (which seems obvious, but in the summer is very tempting.)

If you plan it out and don't push the weather, you'll have a great time. It's flying into deteriorating weather or flying into a box canyon that kills most pilots, even experienced ones, in the mountains. So, situational awareness with a moving map GPS AND dead reckoning with your map and pencil is key. And if you can safely be up at altitude, you can avoid the box canyons, see the weather 20 miles ahead of you, and that's where you get the best views to appreciate how spectacular the mountains really are.

There's so much more to it, but my coffee is done now and I have to go skiing.

Best of luck, and have fun...

[Roar]

Darman, I have spent years flying surveys in mountainous areas basically trying to stay as low as possible for the mission and still avoid the rocks and when I teach new our new pilots mountain ops. the most common mistake I see made is they see the ridge they are flying toward as a horizon and without realizing it they will start to pull back on the stick to put that "horizon" at the same place in the windscreen they are used to having it over the flat lands thus climbing and bleeding airspeed without know they are. So as you are flying towards ridges always cross-reference what you see outside with your Artificial Horizon, Airspeed, VSI and Altimeter.

So now the question becomes assuming one is maintaining a constant airspeed and attitude HOW do you know you will make it safely over the ridge you are flying towards:
1) always review your VNC's and have an idea of ridge and peak heights in the area you are flying.
2) As you fly towards a ridge look behind that ridge for another higher peak or ridge, if more of that farther object is becoming visible as you fly towards the ridge you are attempting to cross you are in good shape to be above the first ridge. And vice versa if less of the distant object is visible then you are not going to make it and you need to make a move to get out of that situation and MAKE THAT DECISION EARLY.
3) If there is no terrain behind the ridge you are crossing to look at you can use the same method as above only with the more blue sky that enters the windscreen you are going to go over the ridge and if more and more ridge enters the windscreen you are not going to make it. Be careful with this though because with just looking at the sky there is less reference for your eye to pick up on and it will take longer to preceive a change.
Keep in mind #2 and #3 are just rules of thumb other factors have to be watched out for that could effect the aircrafts ability to pass over the ridge such as wind direction and speed, are you flying on the windward or leeward side of the ridge, are you flying in the morning or late afternoon (IE, Adiabatic or Katiabatic winds), cloud sign that indicate updraft or downdrafts.

As has been said in the thread before but is so important I will say it again ALWAYS HAVE AN OUT preferably two.

Also very good advice on this thread from 180 and iflyforpie

[oneboldbaldy]

This 180 guy got it pretty well covered.

Here are my 50 Cents worth is: If you get down low and dirty for what ever reason look at your 'up to date' map where the wires are in the mountains out here.

As a 400 hour wonder thirty years ago, I flew one day from Vancouver to Penticton in a Cessna 172 to pick up three passengers. The weather man assured me that the CAVU weather at YVR was going to stick around for many more hours. Well, it went down faster than a free falling rock. On my way back through the Princeton HWY (IFR a.k.a. I-Follow-Roads) I was still VFR at 3000 ASL. Once I was at the the Hope slide the approaching warm front coming faster than forecasted.

We were down to 800 AGL!!! Well, this was my milk run, I had done this many a times before. And I did have to be home that night. It was downhill from there, what can go wrong? By the time I was at Hope we were 500 AGL and had our fingers on the map! There are many plane catcher wire across the Fraser river near Abbotsford. I called them for the weather and it was still pretty good there so I kept going. Near Pitt Meadows we had a hard time staying clear of low clouds AND it was getting dark!

We landed at YVR 15 minutes later. I think we all had to change our drawers that night. Now, don't let that frighten you. I also flew in a 150 from YVR to YYZ and back in 1975. Together with my girlfriend we spent three weeks visiting friends and family across the country. We had no trouble in the mountains except over Manitoulin Island, Ontario where we had to descent to 500 AGL over Lake Huron in very muggy low visibility typical Southern Ontario summer smog. Otherwise we had fun and it was the best way to log 55 hours in a 150.

As 180 says if you keep an eye on the weather and remember the forecast is not always correct. Use common sense and above all don't feel pressured by anyone especially yourself. There is always another day. I wish I had the money or the time to take the same trip again.

[canwhitewolf]

would be well advised to get the book "mountain flying bible" by Sparky Imesons that is published and study it

get it here or other places

http://www.mountainflying.com/

info http://www.aerotraining.com/html_gif/211.htm

the author just lost his life yesterday or today in a mountain flying situation

[username:]

would be well advised to get the book "mountain flying bible" by Sparky Imesons that is published and study it

get it here or other places

http://www.mountainflying.com/

info http://www.aerotraining.com/html_gif/211.htm

the author just lost his life yesterday or today in a mountain flying situation

Yes, very good book. I recommend it.