Petition for Family Access to the Flight Deck

[spinner2]

Hi,

I wanted to draw your attention to this important petition that I recently signed:

"Time for Family Access to the Flight Deck!"
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/flightdeckaccess?e

I really think this is an important cause, and I'd like to encourage you to add your signature, too. It's free and takes less than a minute of your time.

Thanks!

[Rudy]

Yeah, that's the Aeroflot airbus that the capt's son brought down. I don't think it's too much to ask to just show the kiddies around while you're on the ground.

[spinner2]

Yeah, that's the Aeroflot airbus that the capt's son brought down. I don't think it's too much to ask to just show the kiddies around while you're on the ground.

Quite a naive remark. That accident was due to some extremely poor judgment and professionalism by one single captain out of many thousands in the world. I would be careful painting all pilots with that brush.

[V1RotateV2]

Yeah, that's the Aeroflot airbus that the capt's son brought down. I don't think it's too much to ask to just show the kiddies around while you're on the ground.

In the same linear and basic thought process, I kind of remember an Egypt Air plane that was brought down by the pilot. Maybe Rudy thinks that pilots should be kept away from the cockpit....

South of the US and in many parts of the world cockpit doors still remain open, pax and friends are welcomed to visit the flight deck and no planes are falling out of the sky that I know of.

On a more serious note, changing this ridiculous restriction would also help to be able to bring the wife/husband/kid along when the only seat available is the jumpseat.

[flyinthebug]

Rudy.. Are u serious?

V1.. well said!

If my uncle didnt take me up front of his DC9 when I was a kid.. Im not sure id have pursued this profession. I still to this day remember EVERY time I got to go in the cockpit before I was 12 yrs old. We are so unbelievably paranoid in the "west" that we dont even allow our own mothers or wives/husbands in our cockpit?? Thats beyond paranoid and beyond any level of arrogance possible. This "new rule" needs to be changed IMMEDIATELY so the kids of this generation can enjoy looking at a Captain like he looked at Santa... and we can share the experience with our family and close trusted friends.

Im going to sign a petition.
Fly safe all, Cheers.

*Edit for PS.. I know im gonna get flamed over my "santa" comment.. but all I was eluding too is the excitement and respect that kids feel when they get to "go up front", as do family members.. and this has to be the absolute worst overkill.. post 9/11 ..or at least top 5 and needs to be changed immediately.

[flyinthebug]

Rudy.. 13 years ago while I was driving a C206 on floats in N. Ont.. I had an incident where the guy in the right seat, was being escorted back home after 90 days in the jug. He asked me before he got on the plane if he could have his handcuffs taken off. I agreed as i knew some of his family from up north. At 3500' flying along.. he decides to take the yoke and push it full deflection fwd and see what happens?.. The rcmp escort in the back and myself managed to wrestle him off the controls and all was well..

If I agreed with your way of thinking,.. should I then have lobbied for all float pilots in N. Ont to never allow someone to sit in the right front seat?.. and then make it law??.. Wouldnt that be considered "extremism"?? Your reasoning on this one is way off sorry my friend.

Fly safe all.

[V1RotateV2]

fly... you got me thinking.

Does it make any sense to be able to offer the jump seat to any person who was hired a day ago because he/she is a "company employee" and deny it to your own kid?

This is the just an example of the kind of regulations we get when lawmakers react, not respond, to a problem or perceived threat.

[k411]

I hate to hijack your thread, but I also hate to start up a new thread asking a similar question, so I'm just going to ask it here anyways, because it is a question that has bothered me for awhile...

About riding in the jumpseat, is there any possible way to job shadow a pilot in the cockpit (like say Westjet or Air Canada) if say I got appropriate security clearances and such? I am interested in pursuing a job as a pilot, I would just like to see first hand what it is actually like before I spend another 70,000 on training. Even if its not, is there a way that I could shadow a pilot for a day doing the ground portion of the job?

[r22captain]

Yeah, that's the Aeroflot airbus that the capt's son brought down. I don't think it's too much to ask to just show the kiddies around while you're on the ground.

Quite a naive remark. That accident was due to some extremely poor judgment and professionalism by one single captain out of many thousands in the world. I would be careful painting all pilots with that brush.

I wouldn't be so quick to call this a naive remark. While I do agree the Aeroflot accident was an extreme case, 75% of regulations and a great deal of procedures in AFM's are in place due to poor judgments and mistakes that have been made through out the history of aviation.

But I fly helicopters...I always get someone to share the view with......but I make em wear cuffs so they can't screw with the cyclic

[r22captain]

About riding in the jumpseat, is there any possible way to job shadow a pilot in the cockpit (like say Westjet or Air Canada) if say I got appropriate security clearances and such? I am interested in pursuing a job as a pilot, I would just like to see first hand what it is actually like before I spend another 70,000 on training.

I'd say go you'd be better off job shadowing someone from a float operator/Perimiter/somewhere way the heck up north.
To simulate job shadowing an airline pilot here are my recomendations:

1. Put on white dress shirt/black tie (yellow highlighter works great for strips)
2. find a cute hat
3. pack a suitcase full of underwear and socks
4. throw in a few bricks to simulate flight manuals/plates
5. go to mall all dressed up and roll your suitcase down to radio shack (don't forget to tip your hat to the pretty girls)
6. at radio shack go to a computer and just radomly hit buttons (it's just like what pilots do
7. Roll suitcase back down mall to the Royal Bank and withdrawl 70,000
Welcome to aviation!!

[Guido]

7. Roll suitcase back down mall to the Royal Bank and withdrawl 70,000
Welcome to aviation!!

You forgot step 8 - Put the $70,000 into a waste bin and light it on fire...

[spinner2]

I wouldn't be so quick to call this a naive remark. While I do agree the Aeroflot accident was an extreme case, 75% of regulations and a great deal of procedures in AFM's are in place due to poor judgments and mistakes that have been made through out the history of aviation.

But I fly helicopters...I always get someone to share the view with......but I make em wear cuffs so they can't screw with the cyclic

I am comfortable quickly calling this remark "naive" because it is as if the example about one extreme incident should sum up, the reason why or lack there of, we can not have family members in the flight deck. I have to respectfully disagree with r22captain in trying to apply that logic to this problem. The rules restricting access to the flight deck came immediately after 9/11 because of the terrorist threat not because of Aeroflot or any other accident relating to non-crew personel in the flight deck. That is the purpose of the petition. The 75% of regs etc., you speak of mainly involve day to day error in judgement and standard operating procedure to ensure a standard and avoid complacency. Obviously there is much more to than that however it need not be explained here. Rules and regulations are not typicly needed to address negligence and recklessness that our Aeroflot captain exhibited. The issue at hand is to allow family members of our pilots back in the flight deck under the same policy currently in place for employees. Currently in Canada, people other than flight crew are already allowed in the flight deck. A ramp person or an accountant at the same airline can receive access to ride the jumpseat with the captain's approval yet the captain is not allowed to approve his own mother. This is not a request to allow children to sit in the captain chair during flight or handle the controls. Nor is it a request to allow access through the security door during flight. Strict security door policy is already in place and should remain. It is expected as are all other procedures that the captain and crew will adhere to them by law. Sorry for the rant

[spinner2]

BTW, all young and budding pilots aspiring to go to the airlines someday should consider signing this petition too. It will impact you in the future in one way or another. If we don't fight this together, soon all of our ability to make choices in the flight deck will be gone. For every knee jerk there will be a reaction and you can bet that will be in the form of a new regulation.

[North Shore]

Seems rather silly to me that the new-hire that you just met, have never seen before, and with temporary company ID can be trusted to sit behind you, while your 60+ parents, who've changed your diapers, and supported you throughout your life, aren't allowed to do so...

On another note, I recently flew JAL, YVR-NRT, and they won't even allow you to visit the Flight deck at the end of the flight on the ground...

[Rotten Apple #1]

To simulate job shadowing an airline pilot here are my recomendations:

1. Put on white dress shirt/black tie (yellow highlighter works great for strips)
2. find a cute hat
3. pack a suitcase full of underwear and socks
4. throw in a few bricks to simulate flight manuals/plates
5. go to mall all dressed up and roll your suitcase down to radio shack (don't forget to tip your hat to the pretty girls)
6. at radio shack go to a computer and just radomly hit buttons (it's just like what pilots do
7. Roll suitcase back down mall to the Royal Bank and withdrawl 70,000
Welcome to aviation!!

step 8 - Put the $70,000 into a waste bin and light it on fire...

9. Eat peanuts and cookies and snack mix all day.

10. Get up at 1:30 a.m. in the morning and tell your body you have 45 minutes to have a bowel movement.

11. If unsuccessful at 10. above, do not allow your self to have said movement until you head to Tim Hortons at 12:30 p.m. and have a bowel movement in one of the washrooms there. Preferable to still be wearing suit from above.

[scrambled_legs]

How about opening up access for ATC on Fam flights while you're at it.

We have the same security clearances as the pilots in the cockpit and if we wanted to kill somebody, we'd probably do it with our feet on the ground.

It sure helped ATC/Pilot relations when we could talk to each other. I can see things getting really sour, really fast, and it'd be nice to explain why we do the things we do and listen to what the other side of the glasses pet peeves are, starting with a few people on here.

[Jerricho]

Scrambled, you just beat me to it.

I've lost count of the cockpit visits/jump seat rides I had pre 2001. Sh*t, one of the most amazing things I have ever seen was up the front of a QANTAS 747 flying over India dodging a line of CBs that were 40,000' plus.

But it's more than that. To see the workload on a flight deck, especially at critical phases of flight, and have some appreciation of the impact of ATC yammering on 100 miles is something that has to be seen first hand.

[CD]

This is the process to follow if someone wants to recommend a regulatory change:

REQUESTS FOR REGULATORY ACTION
(INVOKING CARAC)

3.1 General

Anyone may request the CARAC to consider issuing, amending or revoking a regulation, standard or advisory material. Accordingly, the following details the procedures for "Invoking CARAC". These procedures are illustrated in Appendix 13.

Anyone wishing to "Invoke CARAC" shall do so, in writing, to

Transport Canada
Civil Aviation
Ottawa, ON, K1A 0N8
Attn.: Chief, Regulatory Affairs (AARBH)

Requests are to be accompanied by appropriate documentation in order to ensure a prompt and concise review of the proposal. The following details the information that should be provided:

* historical and technical background;
* the advantages and disadvantages of the proposal containing any information, views or arguments available to the petitioner to support the action sought, including reasons why the granting of the request would be in the interest of aviation safety or the public;
* the expected impact on aviation safety and the environment;
* where possible, consideration of the approach of other aviation authorities to the same issue;
* the anticipated economic impact; and
* any other related material.

CARAC Management Charter and Procedures (2008 Edition)

[scrambled_legs]

Thanks CD, hopefully whoever is organizing the petition will see this and use the petition as part of the process for a request for change through that avenue and any other available.

[Rudy]

Wow, a lot of strong feelings on this one. I'd love to have my family in the cockpit during a flight. I wouldn't love to be a passenger on an airliner where the pilots are with family members and letting them take control. If this could be implemented with some common sense rules I'd be for it. Too bad common sense isn't universal.
Unfortunately, petitions or lobbying aside I believe it will remain banned. Aviation has changed from the good old days where the captain was a king among men and respected and rewarded accordingly. Too bad we missed it.

Honestly, we are lucky they still let pilots in the cockpit of large airliners.

[swordfish]

Many of the regs in CARs are knee-jerk reactions to some screwball incident, designed to appease the plebeians. The CARs are full of idiotic regulations that either defy "common sense" or are so statistically improbable that they fall millions-to-one outside reasonable risk management.

It is my fervent position that if you hold a red RAIC pass, you should be allowed in the jumpseat without any questions, providing it is cool with the crew. As for friends & family...only if they're the f&f of red pass holder flying.

It becomes distracting and annoying to be inundated with these requests.

[spinner2]

This is the process to follow if someone wants to recommend a regulatory change: .....

CD, Thanks for the info on CARAC. I am aware of this process and will be utilizing it as well. The intent is to also gather as much support for this issue as possible including the rapidly building support within this petition. I think that the following bodies will also end up having some input in the matter if it is to be taken seriously at all.
The Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA);
Transport Canada (TC);
The Canadian Airports Council (CAC);
The Air Transport Association of Canada (ATAC)
Airline Pilots Association International (ALPA)
WestJet Pilots Association (WJPA)
Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA)
The Canadian Advanced Technology Alliance (CATA)
And hopefully the newly formed National Airlines Council of Canada (NACC)
I hope to forward this petition along with supporting documentation, comments and suggestions to as many of these agencies as possible.

[spinner2]

Side note to the ATC guys commenting on the jumpseat. I believe you actually do have clearance to request the jumpseat as a ride-along request with WestJet and Air Canada. I have had a couple of ATC guys in the last couple of years ride up front to observe. They had prior permission from our ops and were listed on our manifest as authorized to ride jump. I would check it out further if you are interested in doing so. It was a great experience to have AT controllers with us. We learned lots and so did they. Hope to see you up front one of these days. I also hope to see my kids up front with me one day too......only in the jumpseat - not flying the plane Rudy!

[spinner2]

It is my fervent position that if you hold a red RAIC pass, you should be allowed in the jumpseat without any questions, providing it is cool with the crew. As for friends & family...only if they're the f&f of red pass holder flying.

With only respect intended Swordfish, what special clearance does a RAIC give you? You are finger printed, retna scanned, and every detail about your life since you hit puberty is documented yet you are not allowed to take a plastic fork in the flight deck with you. I am not sure why my seven year old needs a RAIC - A plastic fork maybe, but not a RAIC.

It becomes distracting and annoying to be inundated with these requests.

I am not quite sure I understand this comment. Could I ask you to elaborate a bit?

[spinner2]

Swordfish, my apologies. I think I miss read your first comment. I though were suggesting family needed a RAIC. I re-read it and see that is not what you said. You suggest as long as they are friends and family of the crew with the RAIC then they should be allowed - to which I agree. My humble apologies for mis-quoting you.